Good Column on Non-lead Ammo

[Curmudgeon]

http://www.twincities.com/2016/02/21/nontoxic-ammo-doesnt-kill-twice-its-the-right-thing-to-do/

 

Quote from above:

 

"Lead ammo zealots have tarnished the image of hunters as “America’s conservationists.” How? These people continue to use lead ammo after learning lead is causing secondary poisoning of wildlife. They cannot be considered conservationists if they continue to use lead. They say, “We don’t need to be concerned about the loss of eagles and other wildlife from lead poisoning because those losses don’t affect wildlife at a population level.” Next thing you know, deer poachers will claim that they should not be prosecuted because they are not killing enough deer to affect the state’s deer herd at a population level. Lead ammo proponents claim advocacy for nontoxic ammo is a conspiracy by anti-hunters. Wrong. Whether hunters are using copper bullets or nontoxic steel shotshells, they are still hunting, and they are still bagging game."

 

Note: In the east, lead is very likely causing impacts of golden eagles at a population level.

[Tacti_Steve]

Good article and I agree a substitute to lead is needed, but it leaves out why lead is used to begin with. Steel rounds wear out a gun something fierce. If you started dropping 30 tons of steel as the article suggests you'd have a different pollution problem. Copper is extremely expensive. Plastic is becoming more popular but has it's own health/pollution concerns. Like I said I would love to see us move away from lead shot but we need a viable alternative. 

[shawnhu]

Good article and I agree a substitute to lead is needed, but it leaves out why lead is used to begin with. Steel rounds wear out a gun something fierce. If you started dropping 30 tons of steel as the article suggests you'd have a different pollution problem. Copper is extremely expensive. Plastic is becoming more popular but has it's own health/pollution concerns. Like I said I would love to see us move away from lead shot but we need a viable alternative.

Gold. It's the only healthy solution and won't wear out a barrel. It'll probably get more people outdoors "hiking" in popular hunting areas too.

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[Core]

Are bird hunters really shooting enough birds that the wear and tear is relevant from lead to steel? These are non-rifled barrels. How many boxes of shells would a person go through in a day hunting?

 

I like the idea of gold. Gives me a business idea. I'll go goose hunting with $1300/shell 1 ounce gold shotgun shells and sell what would be called a "golden goose". Wealthy folk could buy them and serve them up at dinner, with little bits of gold in there for the guests to find.

[Rattler]

There is a counter point to this issue too.

 

“When my father (Randy Brooks) went to all-copper, it had nothing to do with the environment,” Jessica Brooks-Stevens, daughter of X Bullet inventor Randy Brooks, said Monday at the 36th Annual SHOT Show in Las Vegas. “His reasons were so far from that it’s not even funny. It was more about performance. It only happened to work for the condor issue in California.

 

“We don’t support the legislation. We think this type of legislation is bad for hunting, bad for the base. People shoot lead-core ammunition because it’s cheaper to shoot. I know some hunters in California who have put their guns up over this. That’s not good for our sport. Bans like this hurt the future of the sport for everyone.”

Brooks-Stevens said Barnes copper bullets will cost hunters 50 to 75 percent more to purchase."

 

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2014/jan/14/california-lead-ban-copper-/

[Rattler]

This is why people are wary of this type of proposal.  Considering these issues, it isn't wrong to want more research to be done first.

 

"Passage of AB 711 was as slime-filled and as politically greasy as any anti-hunting or anti-fishing legislation we’ve ever seen in California, a state with a history of corrupt and dishonest fish and game law-making that is emotion-based and lacking science. There was no real science to prove that banning lead in all hunting ammunition would save more birds, particularly condors.

In fact, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the sponsor of the SHOT Show, has filed a conflict of interest complaint against California Fish and Game Commission president Michael Sutton. NSSF contends that Sutton’s professional affiliation with Audubon California as its executive director, is a direct conflict. Audubon California co-sponsored Assembly Bill 711, the anti-lead bill.

Sutton squirmed out of the same charges during the Marine Life Protection Act that closed off large sections of the California coastal waters to fishing. He was working for the Packard Foundation then as a honcho with the Monterrey Bay Aquarium. He was an unregistered lobbyist then, just as he is now for Audubon. He’s no less fishy as the state’s top bird man."

 

 

[Curmudgeon]

Most of the hunters I know who use monolithic bullets do so because of superior performance. One friend shot an elk 5 times in the shoulder with CoreLoks before killing it. He is a believer.

 

Anyone using copper or copper alloy monolithic bullets is using a premium bullet with better terminal performance, and is protecting scavenging wildlife and their family's health. Standard copper jacketed bullets lose about 30-35% of their mass on contact with flesh. Lead fragments travel over 15" from the wound channel. Why would anyone who cares about wildlife and their family's health, and wants superior performance, not spend a couple of dollars more each year for all those benefits?

 

There is no effort in NYS to outlaw lead bullets for hunting. Given the outrage over the Safe Act, it would be impossible even if someone wanted to try.

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[shawnhu]

Are bird hunters really shooting enough birds that the wear and tear is relevant from lead to steel? These are non-rifled barrels. How many boxes of shells would a person go through in a day hunting?

I like the idea of gold. Gives me a business idea. I'll go goose hunting with $1300/shell 1 ounce gold shotgun shells and sell what would be called a "golden goose". Wealthy folk could buy them and serve them up at dinner, with little bits of gold in there for the guests to find.

Remember the royalties please.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[shawnhu]

Most of the hunters I know who use monolithic bullets do so because of superior performance. One friend shot an elk 5 times in the shoulder with CoreLoks before killing it. He is a believer.

Anyone using copper or copper alloy monolithic bullets is using a premium bullet with better terminal performance, and is protecting scavenging wildlife and their family's health. Standard copper jacketed bullets lose about 30-35% of their mass on contact with flesh. Lead fragments travel over 15" from the wound channel. Why would anyone who cares about wildlife and their family's health, and wants superior performance, not spend a couple of dollars more each year for all those benefits?

There is no effort in NYS to outlaw lead bullets for hunting. Given the outrage over the Safe Act, it would be impossible even if someone wanted to try.

270_WinPowPoint_130_2.jpg

Might want to load that round a little more on the mild side, or shoot at game further than 50 yards.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[Marion]

There is a counter point to this issue too.

“When my father (Randy Brooks) went to all-copper, it had nothing to do with the environment,” Jessica Brooks-Stevens, daughter of X Bullet inventor Randy Brooks, said Monday at the 36th Annual SHOT Show in Las Vegas. “His reasons were so far from that it’s not even funny. It was more about performance. It only happened to work for the condor issue in California.

“We don’t support the legislation. We think this type of legislation is bad for hunting, bad for the base. People shoot lead-core ammunition because it’s cheaper to shoot. I know some hunters in California who have put their guns up over this. That’s not good for our sport. Bans like this hurt the future of the sport for everyone.”

Brooks-Stevens said Barnes copper bullets will cost hunters 50 to 75 percent more to purchase."

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2014/jan/14/california-lead-ban-copper-/

I can attest to this a box of .300wby in Barnes TSX goes for $100/box vs a nosler partition same load and manufacturer (Weatherby) for around $75-80/box. For those that might not know the Barnes TSX is a full copper slug

You Can't Beat My Meat!

Edited March 7, 2016 by The Jerkman

[airedale]

When it comes to shotshells nobody seems to want to step up to the plate and get serious about manufacturing a lead substitute shot.Very conservatively there are tens of thousands of older shotguns that are not proofed for steel shot and would be ruined by shooting steel through their barrels. Hevi shot is even worse.

 

The only shot these older firearms can use is Bismuth or IXT shot but nobody wants to produce factory ammo. I looked all over the place last summer and fall and could not find one box in all of central NY. I could not even special order it. I ended up having to buy IXT shot and load it myself at $153.00 for a seven pound bag. As bad as that price is it is still less than half of what factory shells would have cost me if I could even find any.

 

Al

 

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by airedale

[ATbuckhunter]

I started using Barnes TSX because I don't like the idea of lead being in the food I eat. I think its even worse for those with young kids because it can effect brain development. The added benefits of great terminal balistics at the range and on game as well as the environmental benefits are a bonus. The only downside to lead free bullets is the price. Ill always use copper for hunting but I don't mind using lead for practice. 

[Grouse]

Standard copper jacketed bullets lose about 30-35% of their mass on contact with flesh. Lead fragments travel over 15" from the wound channel. Why would anyone who cares about wildlife and their family's health, and wants superior performance, not spend a couple of dollars more each year for all those benefits?

 

There is no effort in NYS to outlaw lead bullets for hunting. Given the outrage over the Safe Act, it would be impossible even if someone wanted to try.

 

270_WinPowPoint_130_2.jpg

 

Here are my thoughts on this issue.  It all boils down to trust.  A lot of these claims of poisoning come from groups that have an obvious agenda.  The real effects of these proposals on average people usually show up after they are forcefully implemented, much like most government mandated edicts.  I think that is where the resistance comes from.

 

And it's not a few dollars more.  For most shooters, it's quite a few dollars more.  In an age where the cost of ammo has already soared, with the government threatening to add high taxes and fees on top of that, and taking it to who knows what end, people have reached the point of anger.  It's seen as an insidious incremental oppression, and people are becoming more and more aware of it.  You don't need to ban firearms if you can make ammo unattainable, whether it be through cost or supply.  And that might not be judged an unconstitutional infringement on 2nd Amendment rights.  If only non-lead ammo was legal, could the producers meet the demand?  Could they do it without very high prices?  I think not.

 

As far as a ban goes, outlawing lead ammo could be done on the state level as was done in California, but the steel shot mandate for waterfowl was done at the federal level.  The more you hear about non-lead ammo, the more you have to think lead ammo is eventually going to be banned.

 

As long as people are free to make their own choices there is no problem.  The lead free crusade has a PR problem, because it doesn't have the answers to real questions and concerns.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Grouse

[DirtTime]

http://www.twincities.com/2016/02/21/nontoxic-ammo-doesnt-kill-twice-its-the-right-thing-to-do/

 

Quote from above:

 

"Lead ammo zealots have tarnished the image of hunters as “America’s conservationists.” How? These people continue to use lead ammo after learning lead is causing secondary poisoning of wildlife. They cannot be considered conservationists if they continue to use lead. They say, “We don’t need to be concerned about the loss of eagles and other wildlife from lead poisoning because those losses don’t affect wildlife at a population level.” Next thing you know, deer poachers will claim that they should not be prosecuted because they are not killing enough deer to affect the state’s deer herd at a population level. Lead ammo proponents claim advocacy for nontoxic ammo is a conspiracy by anti-hunters. Wrong. Whether hunters are using copper bullets or nontoxic steel shotshells, they are still hunting, and they are still bagging game."

 

Note: In the east, lead is very likely causing impacts of golden eagles at a population level.

What is a "Lead Ammo Zealot"?

How have they 'tarnished' anything?

Ya know, the big thing you don't seem to actually understand is:

"NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD THIS TOP OF THE LINE AMMO!".

Some people have to buy ammo that fits a budget. It's easy to sit around and say hunters aren't doing their part. It's easy to live in a box thinking people just ignore conservation. 

[Dinsdale]

I can attest to this a box of .300wby in Barnes TSX goes for $100/box vs a nosler partition same load and manufacturer (Weatherby) for around $75-80/box. For those that might not know the Barnes TSX is a full copper slug

You Can't Beat My Meat!

 

That has more to do with the factory Weatherby brand ammo being loaded by Norma then actual cost per bullet.

 

A quick check @ Midway has a Partition and TSX at a penny difference in price. (.78 vs .77 for a 30 cal 180 gr)

 

Factory WBY rounds always carry a premium price, even if the actual bullet cost is the same for other chamberings in the same caliber.

 

Currently have a 300WBY and have owned both 270 and 257 versions; so hand loading these rounds is a best option.

[Grouse]

But if you don't currently reload, you need to purchase a lot of expensive stuff to get started, which you don't have to do now buying cheap lead ammo.  It still forces expense on lots of people.

 

[Dinsdale]

But if you don't currently reload, you need to purchase a lot of expensive stuff to get started, which you don't have to do now buying cheap lead ammo.  It still forces expense on lots of people.

 

Agree. 

 

Just pointing out for that particular argument that the actual bullet always costs more isn't always true, and in that particular chambering in JM's post.

 

Sort of a long the lines of you want to play you got to pay if you want to own a expensive to shoot chambering.

 

One can research that before buying a rifle, and one should know what to expect.

 

I have a BUNCH of chamberings that aren't cheap to buy for off the shelf; and I knew exactly what I was getting myself into.

 

I don't know too many guys that "plink" with an expensive to feed round; and there aren't any 20 buck a box Weatherby rounds to be found anywhere, anytime, ever; and never have been.

 

 

 

 

 

PS.....Federal's 300WBY ammo can be found for less than the factory Weatherby brand/Norma made stuff and is extremely accurate. Around 60/box if you shop careful. Just sayin'. Their "trophy copper" is a non lead TSX copy, although the trophy bonded is a "trophy bonded bearclaw" copy and they are VERY good on game. Favorite bullet next to Swift A-frames and have shot a pile of big game with both. 

[mike rossi]

Here are my thoughts on this issue.  It all boils down to trust.  A lot of these claims of poisoning come from groups that have an obvious agenda.  

 

As far as a ban goes, outlawing lead ammo could be done on the state level as was done in California, but the steel shot mandate for waterfowl was done at the federal level.  

 

As long as people are free to make their own choices there is no problem.  The lead free crusade has a PR problem, because it doesn't have the answers to real questions and concerns.

 

Correct, hunters trust the wrong sources.

 

California is about 25 years behind some other states who already banned lead ammo to an extent, for instance the state of South Dakota, which can hardly be described as 'Liberal". However, it gets hunters off to repeat over and over the evil liberal state of California took this unprecedented drastic step, but a little light investigation will blow up the propaganda. 

 

You must Legislate stupid. Too bad its impossible to do.

 

Fact is the problem with "choice" is statements here like your own - "  because it doesn't have the answers to real questions and concerns. ". That is 100% untrue.There is no scientific debate, only political debate. As long as every second hunter continues to act as a science misinformer other hunters are mislead in making sound choices.

 

Maybe Curm welcomes the debate, and feels it exposes the topic. However, maybe he feels it is an interference? If Curm wants to come on here and tell people the truth, which he is,  regarding lead ammo; then let him. He is not pushing for a ban, he just wants to inform people to the facts. He is right. like it or not. Why do people think their opinion or opportunity to soapbox is more important than established facts? 

 

The hunting community, perhaps because it is comprised of maids and butlers to the republican party, has a fetish with economic arguments. We have tested the hunting community with a series of surveys and quizzes:hunters consistently incorrectly assign economic arguments to politicians or DEC staff, when the premise was actually made by anti-hunters. 

 

Since I do not hunt deer, I cannot contest the statement in this thread about a non tox rifle ammo costing $100. But I know from expereince hunters are not a reliable to tell the truth, I also know that nobody blows off round after round of hi-po rifle ammo, maybe they sight in and that is it, then they wait for one shot on a trophy. I predict that box of ammo might last some hunters 20 years....

 

As far as shotguns, how many old classic guns are out there and in use? Given the choice between taking game with steel shot and having the piece of mind I was not poisoning myself and wife, i would use a new gun and retire the classic. But that is my choice.... 

[Curmudgeon]

I have been paying $30-$40 for boxes of 20 Barnes TSX and Federal Trophy copper. I have bought a lot because I gave every member of our hunting group their first box. Since I shoot no more than a handful of copper bullets each season, I spend more on gas for the UTV so my octogenarian Dad can get in the woods each season then I do for premium ammo. The $4 per year extra cannot be a hardship for any normal hunter. Even those who live in dumps have a ATV. They can spend $4 a year to keep their kids' IQs above average.

 

I know a lot of people who shoot copper in the field. I don't know one who shoots copper at the range, except for that final sighting in before deer season. The cost argument is specious.

 

This photo is of meat from the ND Venison Donation Program put through a CT scanner. The white spots are lead. They were feeding this stuff to poor kids, not so different than Flint letting them drink lead tainted water.

 

 

Do I have an agenda? Damn straight I do: Safe food. Safe gut piles. Fewer dead eagles. Better terminal performance.

 

Do you have a choice? Yes you do: Buy cheap, toxic ammo. Feed lead to your kids. Poison scavengers. Or, forgo a coffee at Starbucks one day and use the money to buy copper bullets.

[mike rossi]

What really gets me going, is the passion members of our community have about things they either know nothing about or do not negatively effect them one way or the other.

 

This photo is exemplary of that - although the info attached to this does't say so, it is very likely that this was caused because some father kept telling his kids over and over that the lead issue was all bull. I wouldnt be surprised if this happened right in front of mommy and daddy....

 

Some older child or teen, for no apparent reason, except perhaps to emulate his dad's ambivalence and disbelief regarding lead pellets, decided to swallow dad's reloading pellets.

 

The result: kid's appendix had to be removed.

 

Nobody is suggesting this is how eating game harvested with lead causes health problems or this is what happens to birds that ingest shot. What is suggested is this kid was prompted to show how , like his dad says, lead ammo is harmless when swallowed....

 

Im goin be like you dad, Im goin be like you....... 

 

[airedale]

Well like red meat, booze, sugar, butter, eggs, etc. etc, consuming just about anything in excess is going to be bad for you. The fact of the matter is the results would probably been the same had this kid swallowed a handful of bismuth, IXT or steel shot.

 

Al

Edited March 8, 2016 by airedale

[dbHunterNY]

I think manufacturers should make it more readily available.  right now there's no demand but as some voluntarily switch it won't be as bad.  once I get into reloading copper bullets will be my choice. until then I don't really have one.

[shawnhu]

What really gets me going, is the passion members of our community have about things they either know nothing about or do not negatively effect them one way or the other.

This photo is exemplary of that - although the info attached to this does't say so, it is very likely that this was caused because some father kept telling his kids over and over that the lead issue was all bull. I wouldnt be surprised if this happened right in front of mommy and daddy....

Some older child or teen, for no apparent reason, except perhaps to emulate his dad's ambivalence and disbelief regarding lead pellets, decided to swallow dad's reloading pellets.

The result: kid's appendix had to be removed.

Nobody is suggesting this is how eating game harvested with lead causes health problems or this is what happens to birds that ingest shot. What is suggested is this kid was prompted to show how , like his dad says, lead ammo is harmless when swallowed....

Im goin be like you dad, Im goin be like you.......

pellets-appendix.jpg

Or the kid may have just swallowed what he thought was candy. How do you get such a story from a photo? Is there some kind of evidence attached to this photo to lead you to believe bad parenting?

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[Marion]

What really gets me going, is the passion members of our community have about things they either know nothing about or do not negatively effect them one way or the other.

This photo is exemplary of that - although the info attached to this does't say so, it is very likely that this was caused because some father kept telling his kids over and over that the lead issue was all bull. I wouldnt be surprised if this happened right in front of mommy and daddy....

Some older child or teen, for no apparent reason, except perhaps to emulate his dad's ambivalence and disbelief regarding lead pellets, decided to swallow dad's reloading pellets.

The result: kid's appendix had to be removed.

Nobody is suggesting this is how eating game harvested with lead causes health problems or this is what happens to birds that ingest shot. What is suggested is this kid was prompted to show how , like his dad says, lead ammo is harmless when swallowed....

Im goin be like you dad, Im goin be like you.......

pellets-appendix.jpg

I am going to say that kid if this is a true story is a complete and utter dumbass and got what he deserved

You Can't Beat My Meat!

[mike rossi]

Or the kid may have just swallowed what he thought was candy. How do you get such a story from a photo? Is there some kind of evidence attached to this photo to lead you to believe bad parenting?

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The report with the photo was that this was an older child (not a toddler), I believe was a teen as a matter of fact.

 

Eating lead shotgun pellets probably was inspired by hearing from adults that ingesting lead pellets was harmless. The kid was apparently acting out. Why else would a teenager eat a load of pellets?