Lead Ammo Brief - go debate

[mike rossi]

Safe levels of lead exposure would be those your body can tolerate and overcome with regeneration.  Those levels do exist, so there are known levels of exposure that are safe.

 

Your theory is not consistent with the WHO and the CDC.  

 

According to the World Health Organization "" There is no known level of lead exposure that is considered safe".

 

According to the Center For Disease Control  "No safe blood lead level in children has been identified".

 

Here are those sources: 

 

CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/

 

WHO: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs379/en/

Edited March 15, 2016 by mike rossi

[Rattler]

Take special note of the section titled "Work Place Air"

 

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=7&po=8

 

This is just one source.  I have not the time to post more, though I wish I did and would like to.

 

[Rattler]

Key Points

 

• CDC lowered the recommended blood lead action level for lead exposure in children to10 µg/dL in 1991.
• States may have their own levels of concern for adults and children.
• Most states have reporting systems for lead poisoning.
• OSHA has set required standards for the amount of lead allowed in workroom air at 50 µg/m3 averaged over an 8-hour workday.
• EPA has set a standard for lead in the ambient air of 0.15 µg/m3 averaged over a calendar quarter.
• EPA has established 400 ppm for lead in bare soils in play areas and 1200 ppm for non-play areas for federally funded projects. This may be used as a guidance level elsewhere.
• EPA's action level for lead in water delivered to users of public drinking water systems is 15 µg/L. Its goal for lead is zero.
• FDA has set various action levels regarding lead in food items. Use of lead-soldered food cans is now banned.
• Today, paint intended for residential use is limited to 0.06% lead content.

 

 

 

[Rattler]

Also: I was once told it is impossible for a man to reproduce without a little lead in his pencil.

[mike rossi]

As if any of that supports his stance instead of the other. This site must be all about google ads, nobody is that ....  Are they? 

[Rattler]

I don't follow you Mike.  The link clearly shows government agency standards called "Permissible Exposure Levels".  If a government agency has decided certain levels of exposure to lead are "permissible" that must mean safe, correct?  There is also a legal standard for removing an over exposed worker from the area until his blood levels come back down to acceptable levels.  That regenerative, is it not?

 

If you can't trust the government, then we are all in trouble.

 

[Rattler]

Do you believe the US Dept of Labor is capable of determining what a "safe" level of exposure would be?

 

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10030

 

[Curmudgeon]

Key Points

 

• CDC lowered the recommended blood lead action level for lead exposure in children to10 µg/dL in 1991.

 

 

 

From http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/:

 

Today at least 4 million households have children living in them that are being exposed to high levels of lead. There are approximately half a million U.S. children ages 1-5 with blood lead levels above 5 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL), the reference level at which CDC recommends public health actions be initiated.

[Curmudgeon]

My friend who retired from Remington worked for a while firing rifles. His blood was tested monthly (I think) and when it went above a threshold, he was reassigned until it went back down to another threshold. I am certain Remington kept within legal levels in the air.

[shawnhu]

My friend who retired from Remington worked for a while firing rifles. His blood was tested monthly (I think) and when it went above a threshold, he was reassigned until it went back down to another threshold. I am certain Remington kept within legal levels in the air.

How did it go back down on its own? Did he need surgery? Dialysis? Was Magneto called in to remove the metal like he did with Wolverine?! It can't be what Rattler was saying, that the body takes care of itself, can it?

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[Curmudgeon]

Don't know anything about Magneto or Wolverine. It goes into bones. Some is probably excreted. They stopped his exposure before they expected damage to occur. If they were correct, he would have avoided damage. Adults and children react differently.

 

Eagle blood lead levels drop months after deer season ends. That does not mean they did not suffer neurological damage.

[EspressoBuzz]

I'm curious IF you only used non-lead ammo for the kill shot and sight in, how many bullets would you go thru a season? Don't count sub-sonic all but do count upland game bird ammo. I mean as a means to figuring out what actually costs might be.

Edited March 15, 2016 by EspressoBuzz

[airedale]

As I posted previously last fall I tried very hard to find and purchase suitable non toxic shot for older guns, none was to be had anywhere because no one was making it. 

 

I just found out that Kent is going to be soon producing their own Bismuth shot and will put back into production shot shells that can be used in barrels not proofed for steel. Hopefully it will be priced within reason.

 

Al

 

[Grouse]

Bismuth tends to be more expensive than steel.

 

[airedale]

Yes I know it is more expensive but I have no choice in the matter when it comes to waterfowl hunting with any of my doubles. If it is priced anywhere near Hevi Shot they can keep it, I will continue to load my own.

 

Al

[shawnhu]

I'm curious IF you only used non-lead ammo for the kill shot and sight in, how many bullet would you go thru a season? Don't count sub-sonic all but do count upland game bird ammo. I mean as a means to figuring out what actually costs might be.

But that's part of the problem with this proposal. By doing these costs estimates of "kill shot and sight ins", you're basically obscuring the real costs to sportsmen and sportswomen. Statements like these also hint at not practicing at the range and being proficient with your implement. What do you think will happen to gun shops, ranges, clubs, etc when lead ammo is restricted or banned? It's sort of like looking through a peephole, not seeing the whole picture.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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Edited March 16, 2016 by shawnhu

[EspressoBuzz]

I shoot almost every weekend weather permitting at home with air guns, once or twice a month trap or skeet and once a month at the long gun range either Islip, Brookhaven or Calverton. I practice a lot and whenever I can. Often going to the range after a morning of hunting or before an evening of fox hunting. I use to compete in air guns when i had time and before kids (B.K.).

 

If you are proficient with your weapon then the transition to non- lead for the "kill shot" should not be an issue.

 

I don't think I have thunk about what would happen to gun shops, perhaps continue to make money hand over fist.

 

But that's part of the problem with this proposal. By doing these costs estimates of "kill shot and sight ins", you're basically obscuring the real costs to sportsmen and sportswomen. Statements like these also hint at not practicing at the range and being proficient with your implement. What do you think will happen to gun shops, ranges, clubs, etc when lead ammo is restricted or banned? It's sort of like looking through a peephole, not seeing the whole picture.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

 

I shoot almost every weekend weather permitting at home with air guns, once or twice a month trap or skeet and at least once a month at the long gun range either Islip, Brookhaven or Calverton. I practice a lot and whenever I can. Often going to the range after a morning of hunting or before an evening of fox hunting. I use to compete in air guns when i had time and before kids (B.K.).

 

If you are proficient with your weapon then the transition to non- lead for the "kill shot" should not be an issue.

 

I don't think I have thunk about what would happen to gun shops, perhaps continue to make money hand over fist.

Edited March 16, 2016 by EspressoBuzz

[shawnhu]

I shoot almost every weekend weather permitting at home with air guns, once or twice a month trap or skeet and at least once a month at the long gun range either Islip, Brookhaven or Calverton. I practice a lot and whenever I can. Often going to the range after a morning of hunting or before an evening of fox hunting. I use to compete in air guns when i had time and before kids (B.K.).

If you are proficient with your weapon then the transition to non- lead for the "kill shot" should not be an issue.

I don't think I have thunk about what would happen to gun shops, perhaps continue to make money hand over fist.

And you do all this with non-lead ammo?

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[dbHunterNY]

 

 

I shoot almost every weekend weather permitting at home with air guns, once or twice a month trap or skeet and at least once a month at the long gun range either Islip, Brookhaven or Calverton. I practice a lot and whenever I can. Often going to the range after a morning of hunting or before an evening of fox hunting. I use to compete in air guns when i had time and before kids (B.K.).

 

If you are proficient with your weapon then the transition to non- lead for the "kill shot" should not be an issue.

 

I don't think I have thunk about what would happen to gun shops, perhaps continue to make money hand over fist.

 

 

aren't most pellets out there lead or lead alloy???

 

I hunt varmints and go through at least a 100 rounds per year on "kill shots" with that one gun.  I shoot competition with pistols and go through another 420 rounds just for competing.  (I can't even use jacketed or non-lead ammo for competition.)  big game rifles I go through maybe a half to a full 20 round box a year if conserve ammo.  shotgun ammo I go through I don't know but it's probably enough to be significant.

 

any other suggestions?

[DirtTime]

As I posted previously last fall I tried very hard to find and purchase suitable non toxic shot for older guns, none was to be had anywhere because no one was making it. 

 

I just found out that Kent is going to be soon producing their own Bismuth shot and will put back into production shot shells that can be used in barrels not proofed for steel. Hopefully it will be priced within reason.

 

Al

 

I wasn't able to find these. They are priced far below Rio, Cabelas has them at a starting point of $15.99. That's doable for hunting, but still steep for practice shooting. I know that doesn't help with the shipping issues, but it does give a price point. I hope the local shops start carrying them, or at least for Dicks to actually stock what they say they have.

I found one box of the Rio at local shop and have not seen another box on the shelf there.

 

This thread is more or less just going in circles.

 

Time to get focused on Spring turkey and camping. Enjoy the 'debate' people. 

[shawnhu]

I wasn't able to find these. They are priced far below Rio, Cabelas has them at a starting point of $15.99. That's doable for hunting, but still steep for practice shooting. I know that doesn't help with the shipping issues, but it does give a price point. I hope the local shops start carrying them, or at least for Dicks to actually stock what they say they have.

I found one box of the Rio at local shop and have not seen another box on the shelf there.

This thread is more or less just going in circles.

Time to get focused on Spring turkey and camping. Enjoy the 'debate' people.

Was never really a debate from the start. Was just the OP fishing for responses.

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[Doc]

No debate here. I have a lifetime supply of lead bullets for each caliber of rifle that I own. I have enough shot-shells already loaded up to wipe out all the squirrels and rabbits in Ontario County. I am not one to throw out good serviceable products that I paid a wheelbarrow load of money for, and so I know what material I will be shooting until I croak...... It will be the same stuff that people have been shooting forever.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

No debate here. I have a lifetime supply of lead bullets for each caliber of rifle that I own. I have enough shot-shells already loaded up to wipe out all the squirrels and rabbits in Ontario County. I am not one to throw out good serviceable products that I paid a wheelbarrow load of money for, and so I know what material I will be shooting until I croak...... It will be the same stuff that people have been shooting forever.

And has not made your kids have 2 heads and 13 toes from eating the bounty taken with those rounds. 

[EspressoBuzz]

This entire debate is non lead ammo for hunting. At the range I use lead ammo, My home range is a pellet trap inside a larger pellet trap. However I use non lead pellet ammo for hunting. I have a deer rifle and a slug gun both are fine tuned for copper and used exclusively for hunting, even so they make it to the range twice before each season the check zero. Small game is both more difficult since many pellets make it to the dinner plate and if cooked in an acidic environment spitting the pellet out may be too late.

 

Do you eat the varmints? If you dispose of the carcass properly you've no need to switch from lead. We are talking about lead in the game you EAT. or if not disposing of it so raptors and other animals get at the lead.

[mike rossi]

Was never really a debate from the start. Was just the OP fishing for responses.

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That was not my intent with this post. Rather, the intent was to get people to reflect on what they say or read, and encourage  evidenced-based thinking instead of ideology-based thinking. However, it is not working...

Edited March 17, 2016 by mike rossi