Aren't we all Americans?

[Mr VJP]

Wildcat, I can understand why you are happy about the health care now, but that won't last very long.  Here's a good read for you on the future under this law and why it is unconstitutional.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/12/why-the-personal-mandate-to-buy-health-insurance-is-unprecedented-and-unconstitutional

[Caveman]

Wildcat, I can understand why you are happy about the health care now, but that won't last very long.  Here's a good read for you on the future under this law and why it is unconstitutional.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/12/why-the-personal-mandate-to-buy-health-insurance-is-unprecedented-and-unconstitutional

I don't doubt it's unconstitutional and as a libertarian I don't like being told I have to do anything, except of course for allowing others to live as they see fit.  Here's my only issue and it's in the source. 

"Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational  institution—a think tank—whose mission is to formulate and promote  conservative public policies.." This is off the home page of the Heritage Foundation. 

I'd like to read a few more opinions on it, gather as much info as I can, and then formulate my own opinion on the subject.  Then again in my opinion that's a part of being a good citizen, being well informed in the most objective way possible. 

My only complaint is in the idea that such a subjective interpretation the constitution is ok in a case such as this, when it would benefit the conservatives to interpret it that way and yet when talking about an issue like the Mosque in NYC or gay marriage I've heard conservatives say the constitution was written the way it was written and we must read it word for word.  Do you see my dissatisfaction with this self-serving logic?  It seems to me that a person, whether an originalist or otherwise should at least have consistency in their ideas. 

[Mr VJP]

Each issue demands it's own scrutiny.  It is up to the SCOTUS to determine consistency.  Naturally, each side will do it's best to argue their case, but only the court gets to decide the issue.

Past precedent will often predict the outcome of an issue, but deciding which precedent needs to be applied is where the question arises.

[erussell]

 

[Doc]

It is up to the SCOTUS to determine consistency. 

That's not a reference to a male sexual body part is it? ..... No, that's not spelled that way ..... lol.

.......Just Kidding!!!!

[Mr VJP]

Well, what you are referring to, does also determine consistency.

;D

[fasteddie]

SCOTUS = Supreme Court Of The United States

[2BRKnot2B]

Because someone lives in America doesn't mean they have American ideals. Socialists/Marxists/communists/NAZI's/fascists live here, it doesn't make them American minded. No such thing as a liberal in DemoncRATick (Evil, blood sucking vermin) circles. They all lean to the socialist (spread the wealth), Marxist (equality of outcome), communist (all animals are equal, but pigs are more equal), NAZI's (gov't owned, or run, businesses), fascism (gov't run businesses under totalitarian dictatorship). In all such, the leadership dictates who, what, when , where, how. It decides who lives, who dies, and when. They decide who gets care, who doesn't, who will be euthanized, who not, who will work hard labor, who will work cushy jobs. The key here is that people under the regime aren't free to decide for themselves. As for libertarians, they see everything as an equality. Nothing is ever equal of outcome. No one can expect to be free of regulation, or law, or morality, and expect that there aren't consequences for that immorality, lack of law, or regulation. If we all were moral, then no one would ever get divorced, have out of wedlock sex, or extramarital sex, because they would know that such creates more problems.

[steve863]

If we all were moral, then no one would ever get divorced, have out of wedlock sex, or extramarital sex, because they would know that such creates more problems.

So are the flag waving, conservative thinking Americans any better than liberals as far as this morality is concerned?  You may want to look up what states have the highest divorce rates in the nation.  The RED states have a lock on this!  LOL  If they were so moral wouldn't you think it would be the other way around??  They are full of $#!+ just like anyone else in my opinion.

[Mr VJP]

Don't put too much stock in those statistics Steve.  They're calculated on the number of divorces compared to the total population in the state.  Obviously, Blue states have higher populations, more urban cities, and most likely lower marriage rates, with more people just living together. 

A lot of the Red states in the top 10 are less affluent and people get married at younger ages.  Not to mention Baptist and Protestant faiths don't put the same stigma on divorce that Jews and Catholics in the Blue states do.  Besides the fact, no one can avoid being divorced if their spouse wants to divorce them, so I guess not all divorced people can be counted as immoral.

It would be more telling if divorce rates were calculated based on the number of marriages, but statistics are often skewed to show something the people influencing the report want it to show.

That doesn't have anything to do with this issue though.  On the topics mentioned, Conservatives will vote for certain values, while Liberals will vote for others.  It's the political agenda that is in question and subject to judgement based on morality.

[nyantler]

Morality is very relative... ones persons morality is not anothers... I believe we get many of our moral views from our faith.. and because there are so many faith with so many degrees of morality... its hard to say any one thing is absolutely immoral... my moral standards are probably much higher than some of the other people I know... yet less than others.. but I don't consider my self to be immoral in any way. Impossible sometimes.. but not immoral

Our fabulous concept of a "melting pot" has led us to where we are today...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have read this and have been biting my lip trying not to get into this. The subject question...."Aren't we all Americans?"

First off---no we are not. There are drives in this country that are not and they should NEVER be afforded the same benefits of those that are Americans. I hate to sound isolationist but I have no desire to conform what we do, act like, or believe in to that of the rest of the world. To be honest---I am not impressed with anything else around the world.

Any social benefits for illegal Aliens---nope

Anchor babies---not any more

In this country illegally---work camps to pay the bill for you apprehension and deportation.

Profiling---You bet ya

English is the language of the country----If you don't speak it---learn it---it should be a requirement of citizenship and illegal to post in multiple languages except for the “goodbye” signs at the boarder

Now let's talk about what an American really is. I know I sound old and I hate to hear my self talk about ---"remember when"---but here goes

Immigrants made this country what it is...how? By bringing the best of what they had here whether it was a skill....a work ethic...whatever. They became Americans...they learned the language....worked hard and contributed to the nation they chose to call home....They were more "American" than many born here today.

Now today we are African American----Italian -American------Irish-American...on and on and on. There is also a culture that thrives as leeches on the sweat and hard work of others.

It is accepted and actually preferred by the liberals, because that is a large portion of their voting base. They contribute nothing and serve as an anchor around the neck of the best nation on earth. Can I say best nation on earth and be politically correct----I don't give a rats A$$...We are...have been...and if more folks wise up....will continue to be. They are flocking to our shores-----not many headed out of this country----many out there despise us and I whole heartedly believe it is out of jealousy and a fear that if their people are exposed to what we have they will lose any control and influence over them. I believe the extremist Muslims are in this category.

Wildcat, I know you are young. When I was young I shared many of the same views you do. The desire to find that common ground and work to fix all the woes of the nation is a fine goal. In reality though it does take two willing parties. I am not affiliated with a party because the conservatives are too liberal for my taste. While it is nice to want to provide for all those that do not "have", it loses track of the fact that it breeds complacency...you create a section of society that serves no purpose and has no value. Sounds harsh I know ...but drive around a city mid day and see the able bodied folks out there hanging out. Should their welfare be mine or your problem if it isn't theirs?

I guess I just don't believe in welfare---for the individual ----for the corporation---for anyone. Hard work and dedication made our previous relatives that came here successful...they found a way or they perished. I know you and I are going to differ on this opinion...but here goes...the downfall of this country is rooted in the fall of the family---- the same unit that is under attack by who....the liberals. Remember when there were family units?----if a member of the family failed...faltered....needed help...it came from the family----not through an imposed tax on others to shore them up.....the family.  And those same immigrants that built us knew that and practiced that.

Now, you had taken exception to the comments on the Gay Marriage issue discussed here. For the record I am against it and view it as an attack on the same family unit I spoke of.,,,but that is just my opinion. When you were asked about sex with animals and pedophiles you rebutted that right away. You did hop over the portion about polygamy. That would be between consenting adults...are you for that?

Finally- I look at history and how the US has been around with the same form of Government for 235 years. There aren't many out there in recent history that can boast of a track record like that. The documents that so many want to discount have served us very well and must be maintained and those set on defiling them must be crushed at all cost. I have no desire to conform to the world...let them conform to us...or at the very least---leave us alone...don't like it---there is the door (not directed to anyone in particular Wildcat ...just venting...I did my taxes a week ago)

[steve863]

Don't put too much stock in those statistics Steve. 

Well, this I can somewhat agree with.  I hope you one day also can come to the realization that other statistics given by people you tend to agree with can be full of BS also.  LOL  My only point with morality is that in general the same types of human flaws exist everywhere, no matter how moral some try to portray themselves as.  Those who consider themselves MORE moral actually end up with more egg on their faces when they themselves don't live up to the standards they try to set for others.

[Mr VJP]

SOME who claim to be moral may actually end up with more egg  on their faces when they themselves don't live up to the standards they  try to set for others.

But there were many people who had high morals and did set examples for the whole world without fail.  Mother Teresa comes to mind first.

[steve863]

If I ever see someone representing American conservatism with the morals and self-sacrifice of a Mother Teresa, then I might become a believer.  Until then I will forever be skeptical.

[Mr VJP]

OK, look into the life and career of William F. Buckley.

[steve863]

I used to watch Buckley's show.  I will give you that he was an interesting character, but NO Mother Teresa by any stretch of the imagination.  Many people also forget that his brother James was Senator of NYS in the early 70's.

[2BRKnot2B]

I agree that the entire system is broken. However, I would disagree that "no one" wanted the health care bill.  People have the misconception that the idea is free health care for all and that's simply not the case.  Granted, I didn't find time to read the entire 1100 page proposal but it has benefited me already.  See I'm about to graduate college and there's currently no jobs for my generation.  The reform allows me to be covered under my parents health insurance until I'm 26.  I would not argue that is a bad thing.  The problem here is that almost no one has the time to read the bill and even if we did not many of us could understand the legal-style writing anyway.  The info anyone had about it was through the media.  You won't find a media source that's not biased one way or the other.  I don't think anyone here really knows what the bill was about in its entirety, myself included.  I'm not sure how anyone can form an opinion on an issue without informing themselves of both sides.  And in my opinion no one should trust the media.   

Well, now I see the problem. You are a closet, or quasi-socialist. So, you don't want to be called a socialist, or commie, or progressive, or liberal, because it defines your politics. It says to others that you're willing to steal, or let others in power steal for you, as long as you get something provided to you free of charge. There are no jobs out there? Have you been looking at Burger King? I don't care about your degree, nor do they as long as your willing to work for minimum wage, but, therein lies the rub. I have a son who could've graduated college by now who lives at home (his mother's insanity), sponges, could work if he wanted to at a local car wash, but doesn't because it's cold out. Boss told him to call back when he got hungry. He won't, because we feed him. Gets tiring, but he's another sponge like you apparently want to be. You think you gety paid to do nothing, and your all taken care of your going to want to get a job? Doesn;t work that way. If you're not disabled, then get out & get a job, Doesn't matter what the job, I worked at BK until I found a better job, but I had to (wanted to actually) help out my mother with mortgage, food, etc. I paid even tho' other brothers never paid a red cent. It was, in my way of thinking, my responsibility to help out. But, therein lies the key. No one wants responsibility anymore, and gov't lets them not have any of that responsibility. However, "chickens...are coming home...to roost." Barry HuJinTau was listening closely to his mentor, the left Rev. Wright.  If you aren't part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

[Taz1300]

So how come when Bob Dole sponsored a national healthcare bill the republicans were all for it? Now that a Democrat ( Black one at that) actually got the same damn bill as Bob Dole sponsored passed, albeit 15 years later, Republicans are shouting unconstitutional. WTF? I guess politics is funny like that. A Democrat sposors a bill, the Republicans hate it. A Republican sponsors same type of bill later and the Democrats hate it. No wonder the Government is broken.

[Doewhacker]

"(his mother's insanity),"

Or yours? Seems like your wheels are wobbly.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

So how come when Bob Dole sponsored a national healthcare bill the republicans were all for it? Now that a Democrat ( Black one at that) actually got the same damn bill as Bob Dole sponsored passed, albeit 15 years later, Republicans are shouting unconstitutional. WTF? I guess politics is funny like that. A Democrat sposors a bill, the Republicans hate it. A Republican sponsors same type of bill later and the Democrats hate it. No wonder the Government is broken.

I think they are all screwed up....It is sad when you walk into  the poll and have to consider the lesser of two evils.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

"(his mother's insanity),"

Or yours? Seems like your wheels are wobbly.

LOL. I paused on the same part of the post---first thing that came to me was---boot int he A$$ and GTF out of the house...Either that or he would be performing maid duties and polishing my car every day

[Doewhacker]

"(his mother's insanity),"

Or yours? Seems like your wheels are wobbly.

LOL. I paused on the same part of the post---first thing that came to me was---boot int he A$$ and GTF out of the house...Either that or he would be performing maid duties and polishing my car every day

Son, your mother and I are becoming nudist's, leave your keys by the door and see you at Thanksgiving. lol

[steve863]

[2BRKnot2B]

So how come when Bob Dole sponsored a national healthcare bill the republicans were all for it? Now that a Democrat ( Black one at that) actually got the same damn bill as Bob Dole sponsored passed, albeit 15 years later, Republicans are shouting unconstitutional. WTF? I guess politics is funny like that. A Democrat sposors a bill, the Republicans hate it. A Republican sponsors same type of bill later and the Democrats hate it. No wonder the Government is broken.

I was a teenager back then. If Bob Dole's people were so all fired up gung ho about it, why didn't it become law back then? It's not about the color of this unconstitutional (not a natural born citizen) president's skin, it's about a policy foreign to our constitution, and which, given this is a 2A forum, shouldn't even be being brought up. We do, apparently, have some infil'traitor's here.

Here's one for ya, dude. USAPATRIOT Act was sponsored by Dems after Murrah bombing. To be used to target internal militias. Repubs said no way that's getting passed. Same bill is passed about 5 years later, with a few changes, and suddenly it's an OK bill, because it's targeting actual terrorist elements from foreign sources, some who are even "natural born citizens" (unlike our current faux president). Constitutionally, NBC means someone born in this country of a father who was also born in this country, btw. So, since Barry HuJinTau isn't born in this country of a father who was an American citizen from birth, there is no way he can be constitutionally eligible, regardless of him winning a majority of the vote, or having gone thru the electoral college process. He is, in fact, ineligible to e president based on his citizenship status.