Question about hunting with licensed tracking dogs in the Northern zone

[Padre86]

It's like you are trolling us. Unreal.

Tell you what smart guy, go for it and let the Dec know what your plans are and then argue your interpretation to a judge.

 

 

I give up!!!  After 15 years blood tracking with dogs I know nothing and you know it all! You win, I'm Out! Good luck out there, you're going to need it!

 

I just illustrated the grey area I am referring to and referenced the exact text that demonstrates why it in fact exists.

 

Doewhacker, you keep repeating that it is "illegal" without directly acknowledging the specific regulations and questions I am bringing up.  So I'm really not inclined to engage you further.

 

Grampy, you might have 15 years of experience with DS, but again you too refuse to give me a direct reply on the specific regulations and language that I am referring to.  You also questioned my understanding of Leashed tracking guide despite the fact that I am relying on the language of the guide to make my argument, as well as to clarify some statements made by you.  If you have feedback which might clear up this matter, please provide it.  But so far, I haven't seen anyone give a direct answer to the main question I am asking.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[Doewhacker]

Manner of Taking

It is unlawful to:

Take big game while the deer or bear is in water.

Possess a firearm of any description when bowhunting or when accompanying a person bowhunting during special archery seasons.

Make, set or use a salt lick on land inhabited by deer or bear.

It is unlawful to hunt big game with:

A firearm or bow aided by any artificial light or a laser that projects a beam toward the target.

An autoloading firearm with a capacity of more than 6 shells (one which requires that the trigger be pulled separately for each shot), except an autoloading pistol with a barrel length of less than 8 inches.

A firearm using rimfire ammunition.

A shotgun of less than 20 gauge or any shotgun loaded with shells other than those carrying a single projectile.

A bow with a draw weight of 35 lbs or less.

Arrows with barbed broadheads; arrowheads less than 7/8 inches at the widest point or with less than 2 sharp cutting edges.

Dogs.

Aircraft of any kind.

Bait.

I mentioned it being illegal one time, the above is pasted from the DEC. clear as a bell to every one but you.

[jjb4900]

"So my question is: am I allowed to bring my dog with me into the field when I deer hunt in the Northern Zone (specifically the Adirondacks)?"

if this is your main question, and it sounds like you're asking if you can have your dog by your side while hunting and not tracking, and not using him for hunting, but just having him hang out with you ...the answer is no.

[Padre86]

I think that refers to certain firearms and whether or not their allowed in the area...for instance, I tracked on Long Island.....had to carry a shotgun because rifles and handguns are forbidden on the Island, same as if you're tracking in a shotgun only zone, no rifle. The license allows you to carry a firearm that is allowed to be discharged in that area...much like it allows you to shoot after legal hours, which is forbidden everywhere......and it allows you to have the dog with you while doing so.

 

I get what you are saying here and appreciate the response.

 

I still think the language between the two regs are directly conflicting with one another.

 

The DEC says very specifically that it is illegal to carry a rifle larger than .22 rimfire or shotgun with ball, slug or shot, in the Northern Zone while hunting or accompanied by a dog except when hunting coyotes.

 

Technically, I read this to mean I can't have any rifle or shotgun (relevant to dispatching a deer) while tracking a wounded animal.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[Padre86]

I mentioned it being illegal one time, the above is pasted from the DEC. clear as a bell to every one but you.

I think you need to take a chill pill.  You're getting too worked up over this.  And you obviously disagree with everything I am saying.  So why are you still even posting?

 

If I am such a stubborn idiot, why not spend your time elsewhere?

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[Doewhacker]

I think you need to take a chill pill. You're getting too worked up over this. And you obviously disagree with everything I am saying. So why are you still even posting?

If I am such a stubborn idiot, why not spend your time elsewhere?

Because it's fun watching you try and justify how you intend to break the law.

[grampy]

I just illustrated the grey area I am referring to and referenced the exact text that demonstrates why it in fact exists.

 

Doewhacker, you keep repeating that it is "illegal" without directly acknowledging the specific regulations and questions I am bringing up.  So I'm really not inclined to engage you further.

 

Grampy, you might have 15 years of experience with DS, but again you too refuse to give me a direct reply on the specific regulations and language that I am referring to.  You also questioned my understanding of Leashed tracking guide despite the fact that I am relying on the language of the guide to make my argument, as well as to clarify some statements made by you.  If you have feedback which might clear up this matter, please provide it.  But so far, I haven't seen anyone give a direct answer to the main question I am asking.

 

  ...........        I tried..........

Edited July 21, 2016 by grampy

[Padre86]

"So my question is: am I allowed to bring my dog with me into the field when I deer hunt in the Northern Zone (specifically the Adirondacks)?"

if this is your main question, and it sounds like you're asking if you can have your dog by your side while hunting and not tracking, and not using him for hunting, but just having him hang out with you ...the answer is no.

Yes, and the issue that question was predicated upon was whether or not I could legally track a wounded deer with a dog in the Northern Zone while carrying a rifle larger than .22.  That's the main issue/question I am trying to get an answer to.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[Padre86]

Because it's fun watching you try and justify how you intend to break the law.

 

 

  ...........        I tried..........

 

 

Well you two have been of tremendous help.  And by the way Doewhacker, I did state up front that I would contact the DEC beforehand to clarify this issue.  And given the way things have progressed, or devolved (depending on how you look at it), it seems the DEC is going to be the only credible place to get a direct answer on this.

 

Have fun at your keyboard doewhacker.  I'll be sure to send you a PM alerting you to any other "trolling" posts I might write.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Yes, and the issue that question was predicated upon was whether or not I could legally track a wounded deer with a dog in the Northern Zone while carrying a rifle larger than .22.  That's the main issue/question I am trying to get an answer to.

I believe this would be similar to having a nuisance permit to take ....say ... a beaver. All the regs read what you can and can't do while TRAPPING. With a special nuisance permit it supersedes the regs and allows what is not normal. You have a special permit to track and during that operation you are bound by those rules. To bring the dog afield during the HUNT and prior to the TRACKING, the permit is not valid and you are bound by the hunting regulations. 

[Padre86]

I believe this would be similar to having a nuisance permit to take ....say ... a beaver. All the regs read what you can and can't do while TRAPPING. With a special nuisance permit it supersedes the regs and allows what is not normal. You have a special permit to track and during that operation you are bound by those rules. To bring the dog afield during the HUNT and prior to the TRACKING, the permit is not valid and you are bound by the hunting regulations. 

 

Thanks!  This is the sort of feedback I was looking for.  This makes sense and hopefully the DEC will have a similarly clear cut answer when I call them up.

[jjb4900]

I believe this would be similar to having a nuisance permit to take ....say ... a beaver. All the regs read what you can and can't do while TRAPPING. With a special nuisance permit it supersedes the regs and allows what is not normal. You have a special permit to track and during that operation you are bound by those rules. To bring the dog afield during the HUNT and prior to the TRACKING, the permit is not valid and you are bound by the hunting regulations. 

Bingo!!! but also be aware of local ordinances and such......like I mentioned earlier, I can't override the rifle thing down on long Island, because they're forbidden anywhere and anytime while hunting or tracking.

[Doewhacker]

To refresh you asked if you could have your dog at your side while you hunt. All of us told you no. You didn't like that. You can track with a weapon because you are licensed.

I would get any questions answered by the DEC in email form and bring that with you.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Bingo!!! but also be aware of local ordinances and such......like I mentioned earlier, I can't override the rifle thing down on long Island, because they're forbidden anywhere and anytime while hunting or tracking.

Gotta take that on a case by case basis. Nuisance tags for Deer in my areas which are shotgun only during regular season, allow use of a rifle for the nuisance tags. NOT is local ordinances exclude them though.  

[thphtm]

It might be different in the NZ but when I took my LTD test in the SZ you had to notify the NYS police also where and when you would be tracking ,if you had to dispach a deer , so that they could answer the many phone calls about gunfire near a person's house.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

[Padre86]

On 7/21/2016 at 5:38 PM, thphtm said:

It might be different in the NZ but when I took my LTD test in the SZ you had to notify the NYS police also where and when you would be tracking ,if you had to dispach a deer , so that they could answer the many phone calls about gunfire near a person's house.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

Again going off the regs in the NYS leashed tracking guide, only DEC needs to be notified, but seeing as how DEC might not have a presence in all areas of the state, I can see how NY State Police might be the next best alternative.  

[NFA-ADK]

Simply stated your question has been answered:  "Can I bring my dog with me while hiking to my hunting spot?  Or before I make a bad shot and need him to track because he is much quicker than I can track?   NO simply put you would be braking the law if you go afield with your dog and a firearm!  Now if you call the DEC and have to track for someone then you would be ok.   If you are really going into a remote location you would have to leave the woods just to make a call, did you think of that?   What is the point of leaving your dog in a car if you are hunting for hours back in remote woods?  Do you really plan on needing the dog?  As a hunter you should not need this to track a wounded animal.  This is not the dogs responsibility in remote woods it is all on you! 

Shame on you if you do leave the dog in the car while hunting, planning on using him to track.  How about you practice shooting more! 

I understand you want to bring your dog hunting, I think it would be awesome to do it in the ADK but what you are talking about is the need for a good tracker. 

Otherwise Yes you can hunt with your dog you just can't harass any animals or have any weapons. 

 

Sounds to me like you got a dog so you can use him to track for you instead of tracking for yourself.  Again hard to call the DEC when you are in real remote woods, cell service is nonexistent so you would have to get out of the woods just to call the DEC and let them know you need help tracking your own wounded deer. 

 

No gray area, hunting it is illegal to have a dog, tracking FOR SOMEONE ELSE is different that is why the course is set up, not so hunters can take the course and then have the impression that the dog should always come and stay in the truck in case I make a poor shot.  Poor excuse to take the course.  Are you actually planning on tracking for other hunters or did you take the course so you can bring your dog out to track your deer?

[Padre86]

54 minutes ago, NFA-ADK said:

Simply stated your question has been answered:  "Can I bring my dog with me while hiking to my hunting spot?  Or before I make a bad shot and need him to track because he is much quicker than I can track?   NO simply put you would be braking the law if you go afield with your dog and a firearm!  Now if you call the DEC and have to track for someone then you would be ok.   If you are really going into a remote location you would have to leave the woods just to make a call, did you think of that?   What is the point of leaving your dog in a car if you are hunting for hours back in remote woods?  Do you really plan on needing the dog?  As a hunter you should not need this to track a wounded animal.  This is not the dogs responsibility in remote woods it is all on you! 

Shame on you if you do leave the dog in the car while hunting, planning on using him to track.  How about you practice shooting more! 

I understand you want to bring your dog hunting, I think it would be awesome to do it in the ADK but what you are talking about is the need for a good tracker. 

Otherwise Yes you can hunt with your dog you just can't harass any animals or have any weapons. 

 

Sounds to me like you got a dog so you can use him to track for you instead of tracking for yourself.  Again hard to call the DEC when you are in real remote woods, cell service is nonexistent so you would have to get out of the woods just to call the DEC and let them know you need help tracking your own wounded deer. 

 

No gray area, hunting it is illegal to have a dog, tracking FOR SOMEONE ELSE is different that is why the course is set up, not so hunters can take the course and then have the impression that the dog should always come and stay in the truck in case I make a poor shot.  Poor excuse to take the course.  Are you actually planning on tracking for other hunters or did you take the course so you can bring your dog out to track your deer?

 

You're a little late to the party.  The clarification I was looking for has already been provided, so at this point you're reopening a conversation that has already been resolved.  

No, I was not asking if I could use my dog to track deer in order to shoot them (outside of legally tracking and dispatching a wounded animal).  The grey area was highlighted earlier in this thread if you want to see what I was referring to.  

I'm fairly accurate with my rifle. But let's face it, not every shot is perfect and sometimes the animals do run off for a little bit after being hit.  Considering how dense and difficult the terrain is in many parts of the ADK's, having a tracking dog available is not a bad idea.  I'd prefer not to leave my dog in the car, but given how remote some sections of the Park are, I'm not sure what the alternative is.

I plan on tracking wounded game for whoever needs the assistance, whether it be other hunters or myself, which as I understand the regs is legal.  Obviously, putting the animal down in one quick shot is preferred method, but I hope for the best and plan for the worst...I really could care less if that doesn't sit well with your self-righteous mentality.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Padre86

[outdoorstom]

I'm late to the party too, but as a ltd license holder and active tracker, you're asking for a lot of trouble if you take your dog hunting with you. Tracking and hunting are clearly two separate activities.....you're either doing one or the other. Also, you'll learn you want to carry a sidearm while tracking, not a rifle or shotgun.

 

 

[BBDEric]

I am a licensed leashed tracking dog handler in NYS. You can not bring your dog in the woods to hunt with you. I see your point about wanting the do near you. But you will have to hunt alone. Deer search requires your dog to be certified. You do not need to have your dog certified with the dec. Also you do not need to belong to deer search even though ever deer search member thinks you do. I tried joining them and said I was already licensed and had tracked successfully 45 deer they looked at me like I was crazy. Said I couldn't do that in nys. Oh well no I just help close friends and family and that keeps me plenty busy.

[jjb4900]

On 7/30/2016 at 1:39 PM, NFA-ADK said:

Simply stated your question has been answered:  "Can I bring my dog with me while hiking to my hunting spot?  Or before I make a bad shot and need him to track because he is much quicker than I can track?   NO simply put you would be braking the law if you go afield with your dog and a firearm!  Now if you call the DEC and have to track for someone then you would be ok.   If you are really going into a remote location you would have to leave the woods just to make a call, did you think of that?   What is the point of leaving your dog in a car if you are hunting for hours back in remote woods?  Do you really plan on needing the dog?  As a hunter you should not need this to track a wounded animal.  This is not the dogs responsibility in remote woods it is all on you! 

Shame on you if you do leave the dog in the car while hunting, planning on using him to track.  How about you practice shooting more! 

I understand you want to bring your dog hunting, I think it would be awesome to do it in the ADK but what you are talking about is the need for a good tracker. 

Otherwise Yes you can hunt with your dog you just can't harass any animals or have any weapons. 

 

Sounds to me like you got a dog so you can use him to track for you instead of tracking for yourself.  Again hard to call the DEC when you are in real remote woods, cell service is nonexistent so you would have to get out of the woods just to call the DEC and let them know you need help tracking your own wounded deer. 

 

No gray area, hunting it is illegal to have a dog, tracking FOR SOMEONE ELSE is different that is why the course is set up, not so hunters can take the course and then have the impression that the dog should always come and stay in the truck in case I make a poor shot.  Poor excuse to take the course.  Are you actually planning on tracking for other hunters or did you take the course so you can bring your dog out to track your deer?

when I was actively tracking, I went and got my dog to track every deer I shot whether or not it was needed...it was good for the dog and putting him on a trail that I knew would end with a recovery was invaluable to him in my opinion......and I also had all my friends call me to track for them whether or not needed if they didn't mind.....but then again I could drive home and get my dog within 20-30 minutes of anywhere I hunted back then.

[Jaeger]

On 7/21/2016 at 10:59 AM, Padre86 said:

Alright, so I do plan on contacting the DEC to get clarification on this, but I wanted to post this here just to see if my idea on this is way off or not.

 

I recently received my NYS leashed tracking dog license from the DEC.  The license allows me to use my dog to track wounded big game (specifically deer and/or bear) on behalf of another hunter or I also believe on my own behalf.  There are specific requirements in terms of DEC notification, leashing the dog, weapons carried/used, ect. all of which can be found here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/25020.html

 

 

So my question is: am I allowed to bring my dog with me into the field when I deer hunt in the Northern Zone (specifically the Adirondacks)?

 

The obvious answer to this used to be no, as the DEC had very specific language regarding hunting with or even being accompanied by a dog in the Northern Zone while carrying certain shotguns and rifles: 

 

found here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/27801.html

 

But this is where the tricky part comes in.  If I legally shoot a deer by myself in the Northern zone, and the deer, for whatever reason, doesn't go down but runs away wounded, I should theoretically be allowed to go and get my dog and track that deer, carrying whatever weapon (whether it be shotgun or rifle) that I legally used (due to the license I now have).  Doing that however directly goes against the previously mentioned restriction on weapons and dogs in the Northern zone.

 

Moreover, if it turns out that it is in fact legal for me to use my dog, while carrying a rifle or shotgun, to track a wounded deer (or bear) then it should be legal for me to be afield with a dog, while deer or bear hunting.  My line of thinking on this is that if my license allows me to track the big game with a dog, while carrying, then I should be able to have my dog at my side prior to and during the hunt in case such tracking is needed.

 

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, no, I'm not trying to find a loophole in the system so that I can chase, harass, or otherwise take deer and/or bear in an illegal and unfair manner.  There are two main reasons that I am trying to get clarification on this:

1) My dog loves going into the outdoors with me and it's been a pain every time I've had to leave him behind because I'm not allowed to even have him accompany me during big game hunts in the Northern zone.  I have an electronic collar on him when we go into the wilderness and have trained him not to take off after deer, so he knows to stay with me.

2) Hunting in the Northern zone, especially the Adirondacks, is remote and rough.  If I do wound a deer or bear and need help tracking it, it would be extremely impractical, almost prohibitively so, to hike out to my car, go back to my cabin, get my dog, drive back, hike out and then try to find the animal.

 

So what do people think of this?  Is there perhaps a legal argument to be made on my part?

I have not read all the subsequent posts as most of it would be conjecture.

I also have a tracking license.  So here it is:

It's the difference between hunting and tracking.  In the first instance you are hunting and cannot be accompanied by a dog.  After a shot and no recovery, our tracking licenses allow us to use our dog to track the wounded animal according to our Tracking License criteria. 

The guide you quoted is the Hunting guide and those regulations apply to Hunting.

When you are tracking your wounded animal, our tracking regulations apply.

So NO you cannot have  your dog with you while hunting but can go back to camp and get him to perform tracking according to your tracking license.

[Padre86]

3 hours ago, outdoorstom said:

I'm late to the party too, but as a ltd license holder and active tracker, you're asking for a lot of trouble if you take your dog hunting with you. Tracking and hunting are clearly two separate activities.....you're either doing one or the other. Also, you'll learn you want to carry a sidearm while tracking, not a rifle or shotgun.

 

 

Agreed on the sidearm part.  But for those who don't have a NYS pistol permit, carrying a shotgun or rifle is the only option.

 

To all the recent posters, thanks again for the additional feedback.  I understand that hunting and tracking are 2 separate activities.  The main cause for confusion, in my eyes, was that even tracking a wounded animal with a dog while carrying a rifle or shotgun, in the Northern Zone, was in direct violation of this clause in the DEC regs:

Quote

• In the Northern Zone, if you are hunting with a dog, or accompanied by a dog, you may not possess a rifle larger than .22 caliber rim-fire or possess a shotgun loaded with slug, ball or buckshot unless you are coyote hunting with a dog.

 

the "accompanied by" part is what was throwing me for a loop.  Culvercreek HuntClub gave the explanation that this tracking permit provides a legal exception to that rule, and I'm inclined to agree; obviously I'll verify that with the DEC.

[NFA-ADK]

You are basically jeopardizing the health of the dog and possibly terminating its life if you fail to come back, in real remote woods it is not a possibility it can become a reality.  Make sure that dog is leashed at all times regardless of if your hiking or not.  Not every hunter knows what a tracking dog is and in deep woods during hunting season a tracking dog can be mistaken for fox, yote or any other excuse to take him out as vermin, don't let that happen!

 

Don't bring your dog, just hit the range more, your confidence will be so high you will not worry about need a dog to track.  We all have some issues when it comes to shooting a big deer, make the shooting part of it second nature and practice stopping the deer or managing yourself to take more ethical shots and you will not even think about ever needing a tracking dog. 

Start tracking for some hunters, you will see why you as a tracker and dog recovery tracker should have the ability to take exceptional shots, so when you have a marginal error it still leads to a dead deer within 100 yards.  

[grampy]

The very last thing I think I may need when I go deer hunting, is a tracking dog. Through practice with my hunting implements, I have gained sufficient confidence in my abilities to get the job done efficiently enough on my own. Tracking dogs are to be used as a last resort only! After all other efforts have failed.