Shoot young bucks to let older ones mature

[Buckstopshere]

3 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

here is a quick video that brings up some other topics for causes of "poor racks" as well as a very good example  of what taking a scrub buck so remove it from the gene pool could be doing . 

 

Good video. So true.

[Buckstopshere]

19 minutes ago, nyantler said:

So if your killing the 1,5 year olds to let the 2.5 year old grow... Where do the 2.5 year olds come from? The truth is there is no merit to his opinion... I will agree it is an opinion though.

 No merit? Gee thanks. I thought it was a good point instead of the knee-jerk reaction to always pass on the spike or three point. I thought it kind of opened up a buck management issue for some who have maybe not thought on those wavelengths.

[The_Real_TCIII]

I have a friend who is hunting a property that is being heavily managed here in WNY. The owner is taking a little different approach to the friends and family that are hunting it. The adjoining properties are starting to get on board with the approach as well I guess. It is in an area with pretty liberal doe permits being available.
Shoot whatever buck you want to shoot, but every buck taken MUST have a full shoulder mount done. So if you are willing to belly up the $$ and want the mount then squeeze the trigger. 

I've thought about proposing that rule for our lease, either shoulder mount or donate $400 towards next years payment


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[Doc]

I often wonder exactly when deer hunting turned into an animal husbandry project. You go through a thread like this one, and you would think everybody is hunting a domestic deer herd. Apparently the game today is manage the genetic composition of the herd, control the diet of the deer, and do all of these activities with the intent of growing big antlers to display on a wall. Well, everybody is certainly free to do whatever they believe in, but I have always hunted deer as I find them. They are wild animals that belong to everyone. They do not feed from a trough or come into the barn each night. Most of the fences that remain on our property or the state land that I also hunt, you can simply step over. I don't pick and choose, or think that I am having any great impact on these hundreds of acres of real actual wild deer. I don't spend hundreds (perhaps thousands) of dollars playing farmer and trying to grow a trophy. That probably would be fun, but has nothing to do with hunting as I have always defined it. I simply hunt deer and enjoy every minute of it as a time honored traditional activity of recreation that our family has casually enjoyed for generations. Do I want to have to worry about deer farming and trying to arrange a "crop" of deer such that I can grow big antlers? ...... Not really. I simply hunt based on existing opportunities. Am I doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong? .... not at all. But I do try to keep it real and understand that we are dealing with wild animals where 99% of the results depend simply on Mother Nature no matter how we try to alter and control things. And, for me, that's exactly the way I like it. If I want to raise my meat, I will most likely opt for black angus. That at least is something I can realistically have full control over.

So, before all the hue and cry arises, let me say that I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I am just commenting that we don't all look at hunting in the same way. I hunt wild animals as nature presents them to me. My focus is on changing myself to hunt better, not change the herd to make my hunting easier or more productive. And so while these threads about deer management are interesting, I always have this nagging thought in the back of my head that perhaps we are bit over-impressed with our actual abilities to micro-manage and control wild herds. And all the opposing opinions on these kinds of management topics tend to back up that notion that maybe our thinking and actions are a bit over-reaching our actual abilities. I may be wrong, but I really think that we might benefit from relaxing just a bit and just hunt.

[nyantler]

11 hours ago, Buckstopshere said:

 No merit? Gee thanks. I thought it was a good point instead of the knee-jerk reaction to always pass on the spike or three point. I thought it kind of opened up a buck management issue for some who have maybe not thought on those wavelengths.

The science of buck age structure goes back to the 1950's and your theory has no merit as it relates to age structure and having future older bucks... maybe some merit in relation to culling for more perfect racks, but only in a controlled environment where certain bucks are selected for culling from the herd. Plus, not all spikes and 3-points are inferior deer... most eventually catch up as far as rack size in their 2nd or 3rd year... studies have even documented exceptional rack growth from spike bucks that have been allowed to reach maturity. Nothing personal... even a good guy can be wrong sometimes

[nyantler]

50 minutes ago, Doc said:

I often wonder exactly when deer hunting turned into an animal husbandry project. You go through a thread like this one, and you would think everybody is hunting a domestic deer herd. Apparently the game today is manage the genetic composition of the herd, control the diet of the deer, and do all of these activities with the intent of growing big antlers to display on a wall. Well, everybody is certainly free to do whatever they believe in, but I have always hunted deer as I find them. They are wild animals that belong to everyone. They do not feed from a trough or come into the barn each night. Most of the fences that remain on our property or the state land that I also hunt, you can simply step over. I don't pick and choose, or think that I am having any great impact on these hundreds of acres of real actual wild deer. I don't spend hundreds (perhaps thousands) of dollars playing farmer and trying to grow a trophy. That probably would be fun, but has nothing to do with hunting as I have always defined it. I simply hunt deer and enjoy every minute of it as a time honored traditional activity of recreation that our family has casually enjoyed for generations. Do I want to have to worry about deer farming and trying to arrange a "crop" of deer such that I can grow big antlers? ...... Not really. I simply hunt based on existing opportunities. Am I doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong? .... not at all. But I do try to keep it real and understand that we are dealing with wild animals where 99% of the results depend simply on Mother Nature no matter how we try to alter and control things. And, for me, that's exactly the way I like it. If I want to raise my meat, I will most likely opt for black angus. That at least is something I can realistically have full control over.

So, before all the hue and cry arises, let me say that I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I am just commenting that we don't all look at hunting in the same way. I hunt wild animals as nature presents them to me. My focus is on changing myself to hunt better, not change the herd to make my hunting easier or more productive. And so while these threads about deer management are interesting, I always have this nagging thought in the back of my head that perhaps we are bit over-impressed with our actual abilities to micro-manage and control wild herds. And all the opposing opinions on these kinds of management topics tend to back up that notion that maybe our thinking and actions are a bit over-reaching our actual abilities. I may be wrong, but I really think that we might benefit from relaxing just a bit and just hunt.

Agreed.. over the years it seems that we have gone from a really good buck being a handsome 100 class 8-point maybe with a spread out to his ears. Now hunters poo-poo that nice buck as a "not shooter". The whole new age idea of what is a mature deer leaves me a bit uneasy...

[nyantler]

12 hours ago, Buckstopshere said:

Good video. So true.

For me this is where the whole "buck management" thing falls apart... I am not of the opinion that there is such thing as a "poor" rack on a mature whitetail deer... beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One mans perfection is not necessarily another's. This is more "rack' management than buck management... my view is that there is no good that comes from rack management as it pertains to free range, fair chase hunting.

[LET EM GROW]

Since we are on topic here and it crossed my mind while in stand yesterday. How would you all feel about this.. I feel better but kind of saddened some... again I don't push people and bash on anyone for their harvests. We all live different lives..
So the majority of all my good 2.5 yr olds were taken this bow and gun season, granted only 1 of my top hit listers fell to the bullet while all of my 3.5s and other hit list bucks that I was aware of are still alive. These 2.5yr olds are the up and comers that the majority of us on the hill are looking to harvest at a minimum. We practice a (you shoot a buck, you shoulder mount it) type rule for us that manage across the properties. Leaving it to be most 3.5 yr old bucks and older to qualify for that buck tag/man cave wall. Now these hunters that took these 2.5 yr olds are the same hunters that shoot the first 1.5yr old buck that passes by them...
First off I'm happy they took a buck bigger than their usual and probably the biggest or one of the biggest bucks they have ever taken. After talking with them, and showing them trail cam pics and informing them on some history and where the buck tended to spend a lot of his time via trail cam, they seem to want to start doing the management side of things. Hoping that they will pick up on this and let them grow some like the rest of us. So for that I am happy we may have gained another property to the list. Which would only help for the futures hunts obv..
Secondly, these harvests just eliminated a bunch of bucks that would or would be very close to shoulder mount bucks for next year. Granted we still have the alive shooter bucks and the few new ones next year if they make this next 10days/winter.

I guess I'm more happy than sad but the thought always crosses my mind.. I literally take this managing thing to heart way to much lol.

Thoughts anyome, if that made sense? Lol

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[Buckstopshere]

20 minutes ago, LET EM GROW said:

Since we are on topic here and it crossed my mind while in stand yesterday. How would you all feel about this.. I feel better but kind of saddened some... again I don't push people and bash on anyone for their harvests. We all live different lives..
So the majority of all my good 2.5 yr olds were taken this bow and gun season, granted only 1 of my top hit listers fell to the bullet while all of my 3.5s and other hit list bucks that I was aware of are still alive. These 2.5yr olds are the up and comers that the majority of us on the hill are looking to harvest at a minimum. We practice a (you shoot a buck, you shoulder mount it) type rule for us that manage across the properties. Leaving it to be most 3.5 yr old bucks and older to qualify for that buck tag/man cave wall. Now these hunters that took these 2.5 yr olds are the same hunters that shoot the first 1.5yr old buck that passes by them...
First off I'm happy they took a buck bigger than their usual and probably the biggest or one of the biggest bucks they have ever taken. After talking with them, and showing them trail cam pics and informing them on some history and where the buck tended to spend a lot of his time via trail cam, they seem to want to start doing the management side of things. Hoping that they will pick up on this and let them grow some like the rest of us. So for that I am happy we may have gained another property to the list. Which would only help for the futures hunts obv..
Secondly, these harvests just eliminated a bunch of bucks that would or would be very close to shoulder mount bucks for next year. Granted we still have the alive shooter bucks and the few new ones next year if they make this next 10days/winter.

I guess I'm more happy than sad but the thought always crosses my mind.. I literally take this managing thing to heart way to much lol.

Thoughts anyome, if that made sense? Lol

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Exactly Grow. I still have a bunch of trail cams out and it is weird how hard I am pulling for some of the little rackers to have made it through. But then, I know how happy it makes a deer hunter to finally punch the tag. So it is a complicated, ambivalent feeling. From this discussion I have realized that I live in an area that is overrun with spike, three-pointers, and bucks with both antlers broken off because the headgear was so small and spindly. But others have said that their properties are different. But if it really doesn't matter if a hunter is just as happy with a spike as a six-point, then I still maintain...shoot the smaller buck to the let the older one grow. Evidently some just don't understand and think that the sacred little spike should never be shot. That knee-jerk mentality is the one that doesn't have merit.

[LET EM GROW]

Exactly Grow. I still have a bunch of trail cams out and it is weird how hard I am pulling for some of the little rackers to have made it through. But then, I know how happy it makes a deer hunter to finally punch the tag. So it is a complicated, ambivalent feeling. From this discussion I have realized that I live in an area that is overrun with spike, three-pointers, and bucks with both antlers broken off because the headgear was so small and spindly. But others have said that their properties are different. But if it really doesn't matter if a hunter is just as happy with a spike as a six-point, then I still maintain...shoot the smaller buck to the let the older one grow. Evidently some just don't understand and think that the sacred little spike should never be shot. That knee-jerk mentality is the one that doesn't have merit.

It's just different with each hunter. I do t classify a buck by his points nor his spindly rack. We can't control that without high fences, and like others mentioned alot has to do with the doe also. But I judge more based on age, especially if there is history with this buck. I won't pull the trigger on anything less than a 3.5 yr old, unless wounded. (Which to of the 2.5 yr old bucks taken of our neighboring piece both had crossbow bolts broke off in them). Unless they are injured pretty bad. Where it impairs their ability to be mobile significantly. But I can't agree on shooting the younger of the 2 deer in that scenario. From my point of view they both get the pass, even if one will be a target buck the following year..

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[LET EM GROW]

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