Anterless Only

[fasteddie]

What is the purpose of Anterless Only during the late ML / Archery season in 8F , 8H and a few other areas in Western NY ? This applies to Dec 12 - 20 . I think I just came out of a Coma and realized this !

[growalot]

Thanks for posting this...I was in the same coma!...looks like a couple of day trips to camp...If nothing pans out here in the next few days

[Doewhacker]

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/28605.html#deer

[Larry]

If I remember the rule book was printed before the antlerless season from last year was rescinded. I would still call the DEC. though

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Look on line. That is not in force. It wasn't removed prior to the print date. 

[growalot]

Gosh..there for a moment I thought they'd managed to change it yet again...I remember this whole conversation from August....

[Four Season Whitetail's]

If you have a Ny buck tag left does that not still turn into an either sex tag in the late seasons?   I believe it does.

[Trial153]

If you have a Ny buck tag left does that not still turn into an either sex tag in the late seasons?   I believe it does.

Unfortunately yes

[fasteddie]

Doewhacker ,,, thanks for the update . I was going strictly by the Regs Book --- page 25 and was bummed out by what I saw . Glad someone is on the ball ! Thank You !

[Grizz1219]

19 hours ago, Trial153 said:

 

Unfortunately yes

 

Why unfortunately????? 

[Trial153]

Why unfortunately????? 

It is unfortunate because it's bad management.
Allowing that tag to convert to an antlerless tag potentially increased the doe kill in areas that originally either had a very limited quotas or in some case no DMP allocations. Our DEC can't have it both ways. Either you need specific antlerless harvests per DMU or you don't. By turning the regular tag into a state wide antlerless tag as a consultation prize you undermine the objectives.
NY hunters need to wake up and realize the DECs primary objectives may not be what's hunters want to see in the way of adequate deer numbers. They would be perfectly happy managing a population at less then half the current numbers.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

7 minutes ago, Trial153 said:

 

 

It is unfortunate because it's bad management.
Allowing that tag to convert to an antlerless tag potentially increased the doe kill in areas that originally either had a very limited quotas or in some case no DMP allocations. Our DEC can't have it both ways. Either you need specific antlerless harvests per DMU or you don't. By turning the regular tag into a state wide antlerless tag as a consultation prize you undermine the objectives.
NY hunters need to wake up and realize the DECs primary objectives may not be what's hunters want to see in the way of adequate deer numbers. They would be perfectly happy managing a population at less then half the current numbers.

 

 

years ago I remember my father telling my that last day or weekend up north you could take anything on you tag during the regular season. before my time and he said it crushed the population where they hunted. 

[Grizz1219]

But if it were less than half, it would not generate the $ to keep most of them working... so I'm not sure how negatively they view the deer herd or wishing it were lower... Bucks can really only breed 6-7 does a year at most... so if you have a higher doe to buck ratio than 7-1, those other does aren't increasing the herd size where another buck left to live another year will breed another 6-7 does... not sure your situation in your zone, but I know in mine, we are way over that ratio and we aren't given any DMP tags, so I shoot more does than bucks as often as I can.. 

[Trial153]

But if it were less than half, it would not generate the $ to keep most of them working... so I'm not sure how negatively they view the deer herd or wishing it were lower... Bucks can really only breed 6-7 does a year at most... so if you have a higher doe to buck ratio than 7-1, those other does aren't increasing the herd size where another buck left to live another year will breed another 6-7 does... not sure your situation in your zone, but I know in mine, we are way over that ratio and we aren't given any DMP tags, so I shoot more does than bucks as often as I can.. 

How is that not perpetuating the status quo?
If you have a doe population of twenty. Let's go by your logic that only half are bred because of the lack of bucks.
You kill 20% of the does on un allocated tags. Half of them are bred and half aren't. You just reduced the potential fawn crop by 20%.
Seems like a good way to get nowhere year after year.


I totally understand the perception that the ratio is skewed to having too many does. However if the total population of both sexs is below the Objective with is the criteria for not allocating DMP in a DMU then the answer isn't increased doe harvests. The answer is a decrees in buck take.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

54 minutes ago, Grizz1219 said:

. Bucks can really only breed 6-7 does a year at most...

how are you getting to that number?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

22 minutes ago, Trial153 said:

 

 

How is that not perpetuating the status quo?
If you have a doe population of twenty. Let's go by your logic that only half are bred because of the lack of bucks.
You kill 20% of the does on un allocated tags. Half of them are bred and half aren't. You just reduced the potential fawn crop by 20%.
Seems like a good way to get nowhere year after year.


I totally understand the perception that the ratio is skewed to having too many does. However if the total population of both sexs is below the Objective with is the criteria for not allocating DMP in a DMU then the answer isn't increased doe harvests. The answer is a decrees in buck take.



 

 

 

commonly accepted numbers are to maintain the herd size a 20-25% take should maintain. above 30% is required to reduce the herd size. 

[chas0218]

43 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

commonly accepted numbers are to maintain the herd size a 20-25% take should maintain. above 30% is required to reduce the herd size. 

Right but 20% is the lowest take and could be a higher percentage. Just think if you killed all the deer that were bred then you would have no new fawns the following year then did the same. The 20 deer would become 5 deer in a matter of 2 years.

 

Most definitely bad management tactics. Think of the areas that you count deer sightings by the number per a week instead number per a sit or worse per a day,

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Right but 20% is the lowest take and could be a higher percentage. Just think if you killed all the deer that were bred then you would have no new fawns the following year then did the same. The 20 deer would become 5 deer in a matter of 2 years.
 
Most definitely bad management tactics. Think of the areas that you count deer sightings by the number per a week instead number per a sit or worse per a day,

You are making bad assumptions. Any take should be planned based on population surveys. Including dawn recruitment. Wouldn't happen if done appropriately.

[chas0218]

19 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

You are making bad assumptions. Any take should be planned based on population surveys. Including dawn recruitment. Wouldn't happen if done appropriately.

Right but allowing that regular season tag to either sex isn't good management in areas that don't give out doe permits.

[Grizz1219]

2 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

how are you getting to that number?

I'll tag the article as well... QDMA says it is even less... " Dr. Randy DeYoung’s article in Quality Whitetails explained this concept and documented through research that breeding is done by bucks of all age classes, irrespective of the herd’s age structure. Yearlings and 2½-year-olds even get in on the action on the King Ranch in Texas, where more than 50 percent of the bucks are 3½ years of age or older. Randy’s research also showed bucks that successfully breed do not sire many fawns. The most prolific buck in their studies only sired six fawns in a single year, and on one study site successful bucks averaged less than three fawns per year over an 11-year period. Anna Bess Sorin found similar results in a Michigan deer herd where 17 bucks sired 67 fawns for an average of 3.9 fawns per buck. Individual bucks sired anywhere from one to nine fawns in her study. - See more at: https://www.qdma.com/will-dominant-bucks-dominate-breeding/#sthash.p1nycRkq.dpuf "

 

https://www.qdma.com/will-dominant-bucks-dominate-breeding/

 

[Grizz1219]

3 hours ago, Trial153 said:

 

 

How is that not perpetuating the status quo?
If you have a doe population of twenty. Let's go by your logic that only half are bred because of the lack of bucks.
You kill 20% of the does on un allocated tags. Half of them are bred and half aren't. You just reduced the potential fawn crop by 20%.
Seems like a good way to get nowhere year after year.


I totally understand the perception that the ratio is skewed to having too many does. However if the total population of both sexs is below the Objective with is the criteria for not allocating DMP in a DMU then the answer isn't increased doe harvests. The answer is a decrees in buck take.

Let's do it mathematically... using a herd of 1000 deer.... say the first herd of 1000 has a doe to buck ratio of 9;1, that means of the 900 does on average only 500 will be bred (based on the QDMA and other info that says a buck can only breed 4-6 does a year) that leaves 400 does not being bred.. Now... Shoot more of those bucks prior to November and that # gets worse quickly... 

2nd herd of 1000 deer is made up of 800 does and 200 bucks... 4:1... All the does get bred... No I understand what you are saying about low deer #'s... Then tags should be eliminated, not left as buck tags or you make it even worse... 

 

I simplified the math but I hope that explains it to a degree... 

 

 

 

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

26 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Right but allowing that regular season tag to either sex isn't good management in areas that don't give out doe permits.

disagree in part. Good management is number based. if the numbers aren't there we shouldn't be taking them in any form in that area. No?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

16 minutes ago, Grizz1219 said:

I'll tag the article as well... QDMA says it is even less... " Dr. Randy DeYoung’s article in Quality Whitetails explained this concept and documented through research that breeding is done by bucks of all age classes, irrespective of the herd’s age structure. Yearlings and 2½-year-olds even get in on the action on the King Ranch in Texas, where more than 50 percent of the bucks are 3½ years of age or older. Randy’s research also showed bucks that successfully breed do not sire many fawns. The most prolific buck in their studies only sired six fawns in a single year, and on one study site successful bucks averaged less than three fawns per year over an 11-year period. Anna Bess Sorin found similar results in a Michigan deer herd where 17 bucks sired 67 fawns for an average of 3.9 fawns per buck. Individual bucks sired anywhere from one to nine fawns in her study. - See more at: https://www.qdma.com/will-dominant-bucks-dominate-breeding/#sthash.p1nycRkq.dpuf "

 

https://www.qdma.com/will-dominant-bucks-dominate-breeding/

 

I've read that. I honestly thought you were talking about the actual act of breeding. successful, I agree. 

[Grizz1219]

Trust me... My state is destroying the deer herd by handing out buck tags like candy, and you have to apply for a doe permit... They are born 1 to 1, bucks have a higher natural mortality rate over does (The rut takes a big toll on their bodies) and yet we don't kill them 1 to 1... I have spots I hunted 15 - 20 years ago I used to see deer all the time, I put my cameras out for 2 weeks and got 1 pic of a doe and 1 bear pic... You want to lower #'s of deer, shoot bucks only... You end up with fewer does being bred and very few fawns to counter the deer kill... 

[Trial153]

With all due respect it doesn't explain it.
The tags only become Antlerless at end of the season, so during the secondary seasons archery and muzzleloader. The primary rut is over. Regardless of the ratio. if you killing does A percentage of those does are bred.
Please tell me how that is in line with an area that has no DMP allocations because the unit is below its target deer take and capacity?