Crossbow/gun and whitetail population

[stubborn1VT]

Vermont added crossbows for hunters over 55 years old.  I'm against it, though I haven't seen any direct impact.  Yet.

I'm not concerned about changing anyone else's opinion on that matter, but I have MY reasons wanting bow season to stay the same.

I hate change in general.

Bow season IS my "special time".  It's special because of the time of year and the weather, and because the deer on a more natural pattern.  That makes them easier for me to see them, and kill them.  So I'm against anything that would change that.  I don't have to worry so much about road hunters, trespassers, deer drives, and all the traffic in and out of the woods that I associate with gun/ML seasons.  

When somebody get a crossbow, the first thing I hear from them is "Man, you wouldn't believe how FAR I can shoot with this thing.  It's so EASY."  That's not what bow hunting is about for me.  You can call me elitist, but bow hunting is about getting close, undetected, making a clean shot and recovery.  Plenty of people can do those same things with a Xbow, but plenty will shoot too far, wound deer, and hurt the sport.

My friends and I talk about getting lucky during rifle season.  We look at taking a mature doe or a buck with a bow as both skill and luck.  Every clean kill with a stick and string feels like a trophy.  Many serious hunters in VT leave the state after bow season to hunt where there is more deer, or bigger woods.  If it wasn't for the peace and quiet of bow season, I would join them.

I'm not saying a Xbow is the same as a rifle, shotgun, or ML, but it isn't truly a bow either.  That goes both ways.  It isn't as challenging as a vertical bow, and it isn't as effective as a firearm.  

I'm not writing this in regards to NY in particular.  Just some thoughts from VT, where we don't have nearly as much land, or nearly as many deer, overall.  

I just want my chance to hunt deer that are not overly pressured, in the peace and quiet, while the leaves change and fall.  If Xbows effect that, then I am against them.

[wolc123]

13 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

Vermont added crossbows for hunters over 55 years old.  I'm against it, though I haven't seen any direct impact.  Yet.

I'm not concerned about changing anyone else's opinion on that matter, but I have MY reasons wanting bow season to stay the same.

I hate change in general.

Bow season IS my "special time".  It's special because of the time of year and the weather, and because the deer on a more natural pattern.  That makes them easier for me to see them, and kill them.  So I'm against anything that would change that.  I don't have to worry so much about road hunters, trespassers, deer drives, and all the traffic in and out of the woods that I associate with gun/ML seasons.  

When somebody get a crossbow, the first thing I hear from them is "Man, you wouldn't believe how FAR I can shoot with this thing.  It's so EASY."  That's not what bow hunting is about for me.  You can call me elitist, but bow hunting is about getting close, undetected, making a clean shot and recovery.  Plenty of people can do those same things with a Xbow, but plenty will shoot too far, wound deer, and hurt the sport.

My friends and I talk about getting lucky during rifle season.  We look at taking a mature doe or a buck with a bow as both skill and luck.  Every clean kill with a stick and string feels like a trophy.  Many serious hunters in VT leave the state after bow season to hunt where there is more deer, or bigger woods.  If it wasn't for the peace and quiet of bow season, I would join them.

I'm not saying a Xbow is the same as a rifle, shotgun, or ML, but it isn't truly a bow either.  That goes both ways.  It isn't as challenging as a vertical bow, and it isn't as effective as a firearm.  

I'm not writing this in regards to NY in particular.  Just some thoughts from VT, where we don't have nearly as much land, or nearly as many deer, overall.  

I just want my chance to hunt deer that are not overly pressured, in the peace and quiet, while the leaves change and fall.  If Xbows effect that, then I am against them.

I appreciate your honesty.  It is probably easier for you, being from VT, and not really having a bird in this hunt.   One of our biggest problems in NY, is the steady decline in the number of hunters in the woods.  In the short run, that might seem like a good thing, because it does add to the "peace and quiet" you can experience.  

Looking at the big picture, it is not so good, because hunters are the most important part of maintaining a strong, healthy deer herd.   If hunting were not allowed, it would all be up to automobiles, starvation, disease, and predators.   Put yourself in the deer's position, what would be the most painless way to go?  

I also understand grow's argument about deer going nocturnal and that is is tougher to kill does.  Bucks have not been a problem, but I have yet to take a doe with my crossbow.  I am certain that I could do it easily, if I could go after them from the start of archery season.  I ended up eating two of my four DMP tags this year, and I live in one of the zones (9F) that is grossly overpopulated with deer and where the DEC has been struggling to get them under control. I have the tool to do the job (crossbow) but the selfish elite have prevented its use when it could work best on the does.   

I also trust the DEC, and believe they are doing all they can to keep everyone happy.  They will continue to adjust DMP's, as required, to maintain healthy deer populations.   If hunter's are not able to take enough deer with the current system, such as is happening right now in zone 9F,9A and others, then it is time to ease the restrictions.   At this point, the restriction against the crossbow, at the start of archery season, is the single biggest one that is preventing me from doing my part.  A crossbow is far more effective on doe than a vertical, because it does not need to be drawn when groups of deer are in close.   It is very rare to see does traveling alone in this grossly overpopulated area.  Killing a lone buck with a vertical bow is a piece of cake in comparison.   

   

[bpbreloading]

Good Morning to all in the frozen New Yorkisstan,

Now residing in the free state of Georgia we had a 12 deer tag this year. 2 bucks one of which has to be I  think a 4 point then 10 flattops.

GA hunts with all the bows and firearms one can imagine.

Here is a link on deer take.

I don't think GA separates out the xbow from other sticks or wheeled machines. http://www.georgiawildlife.com/node/3335

[nyantler]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 9:02 PM, nodeerhere said:

What will or deer herds and buck growth be if they allow this weapon fully during bow?what will happen to the compound,recurve, and long bow. 

no different than it already is... the addition of a weapon that kills using the same cutting edge as any other arrow throwing weapon and still requires a deer to be standing in front of the hunter will have little impact on overall kill numbers... and most hunters that I've spoken to aren't giving up their compound or trad bow for a crossbow any time soon.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, wolc123 said:

Do you hunt with a recurve or a longbow?   How many years do you think we have before this steady progression will result in rifles used throughout archery season?   Will it be more than the 30 years or so years that crossbows have been legal in Ohio?  It sounds like your head may be in the sand here in NY, and you might be completely ignoring all the evidence in the surrounding states.

Yes I do. And in fact I have been fairly successful with it. I also own a wall full of compound from my tournament days. And I will tell you that there is a heck of a lot of the same disciplines shared between recurves and compounds than anyone is willing to admit. In fact other than the let-off, compounds share exactly the same challenges as recurves and longbows.

I see only one valid reason why someone would want to keep crossbows out, and that is to limit the number of hunters who have access to the deer before the guns are allowed in.    There are two specific words for wanting to have everything to yourself and not wanting to share with others who may be weaker or less skilled.   Those would be: SELFISH, and ELITISM.

The only selfishness that I see in this argument is from those that would impose themselves in an inappropriate way and inserting themselves into a season that was never intended for their weapon as I described above. That kind of aggression is the only thing that I see as self-serving and thoughtless. I see you didn't bother to read my earlier reply when I asked you how you would react to this charge when you tell the gunners that they are excluded. A bit of hypocrisy will be displayed at that time I'm sure. You too will become exclusionary and in your version of the term, will become selfish. By the way does any of this sound familiar, because this is the third or fourth time around on some of this stuff.

I love it when the anti's try and turn things around and claim that those of us who want more folks to be able to enjoy more of archery season are the selfish ones.    Think about what you are saying before submitting your reply.

And I would suggest that you read the replies that are made to your arguments before repeating them over and over. I have answered this issue several times within this very thread, and you have yet responded to any of it other than to repeat yourself. Try just this once to explain how you are going to answer the rifle hunters when they demand inclusion.

 Not all of us hunt for the "challenge".   There are still many, like myself, who's primary reason is to provide meat for their family.

Then force your way into the proper season where that can be accommodated. We already have a season that is an "anything goes" season. Bow season was not created for you.

Is efficiently providing meat for others selfish?  Do you know that the number of hunters has been declining for many years and that the crossbow would be a good way to rekindle some more interest with groups which have been underrepresented, including the very young and old, woman, and handicapped?  

And can you prove that crossbows will do anything but shift existing gun hunters into bow season? Do you have any facts that show hunters were declining because there is no crossbow. Do you understand how incredibly stupid that sounds? Do you really believe that the crossbow will be the salvation of hunting. If so it should have done wonders when it was included in the gun season...... but it didn't.

 Do you understand that even you will join one of those groups one day whether you want to or not?   Do you think you might change your selfish, elitist stance at that time?  

I am of the age where I realize that there will come an age where I won't be able to draw my bow. I will not be running around trying to force my way into an inappropriate season and have everyone change rules and restrictions around to suit me. Talk about selfishness and self indulgence. but I guess that is just another extension of the attitudes of entitlement. By the way, I also understand that there will come a time when I likely will not be able to cock a crossbow. Will we be demanding the use of guns to handle that condition? Yes, all hunting has physical demands and limitations, and that doesn't mean that all rules, regulations, and existing accommodations of special seasons go out the window. 

Maybe we should establish a special early long-bow season for Olympic class athletes who have earned medals? 

I don't even know what the heck that is supposed to mean   

When and if the change comes, and full inclusion arrives, no one is suggesting that you will not be able to challenge yourself more, if you wish, with compounds, recurves and longbows.  Yet you remain hell-bent on keeping the crossbow out to keep your "special time" to yourself.

Again, if you had taken the time to even browse over any of my replies, you would have known that none of my concerns are about being forced to give up real bowhunting. I am not going through all that again just because you cannot take the time to read or understand what has already been repeated way beyond what is reasonable. If you are going to engage in debate, part of the deal is that you do have to read the opposing responses.                 

 

 

[upstate]

Now I agree with grow on training and it being a "muzzleloader". Those things are very dangerous and training is important. 

 

As far as deer figuring it out and crossbow being part of the problem. It's local people.  Deer figure it out cause they pattern us. It's how I figured someone was hunting from my stand a long time ago. Doe and fawns were looking up at my stand before looking for acorns.  I put up a trail cam and nailed the neighbor trespassing. 

 

Find a spot with little or no pressure and they behave accordingly. It's why I keep saying that access is a huge problem, we only have so much land. 

 

[wolc123]

Doc,

The special season for the Olympic longbow shooters would be so that those who put in all the extra time and effort required to obtain world-class abilities would be rewarded with a "special season".  Maybe it could start right after the Olympics wind up, in late August or so.  Your logic would indicate that they deserve that.  

The first deer taken in NY were probably killed by native Americans with wood longbows and stone arrowheads.   How about another early season for that, right before or after the Olympians get their crack?  Once again, this would make sense per your logic.    

As far as your gun question: I would tell those folks to learn how to use a crossbow and hunt with it.  The silence of the crossbow is a huge advantage when it comes to delaying the nocturnal changeover that occurs when the deer realize they are being hunted.  I do agree with many who think that they should have to take an archery course and learn the difference in how an arrow kills compared to a bullet.  I took that course and have killed many more deer with a vertical bow than a crossbow.   Requiring that 8 hour course would go a long way towards you keeping that "peaceful time" to which you so desperately cling.

Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member?    How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows?  Have you ever missed any clean?  If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease?  Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand?   Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy?     

    

[chrisw]

Wolc... First off did you just learn the term "selfish elitism"? You've thrown it in every post lately. Secondly, you are justifying why you should be able to jam your weapon into a current weapons' season because "YOU" want it so "YOU" can kill more deer. How are you any different than a guy not wanting it in archery season? You too are being selfish. But it's nice to see your true colors coming out, you hide behind your Bible most of the time but you're apparently riled up enough to belittle other people on their beliefs, even going as far as saying Jesus would be for full inclusion!? Seriously man? I'm against inclusion but I'm not crusading a forum telling you that you're a selfish prick because you don't agree with me. You filled all but 2 of your tags this year, quit whining. You do realize that you're whining more than most guys who didn't get a deer during archery at all right? That just shows how you don't enjoy the time spent in the woods, you just want to walk in and kill something because God forbid you don't fill a tag. We can't change the season every time some whiner wants to make it easier for himself. So stop your holy crusade, if you want to make decisions in your life based on the Bible, fine with me, where you start to really annoy me is when you try to force it down people's throat and use crazy correlations (like Jesus wants full inclusion). So go ahead, follow this up with a response about the Bible and how you'll pray for me, and you're right and everyone who disagrees is wrong, that seems to be your niche.

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[turkeyfeathers]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 9:17 PM, nodeerhere said:

How ever isn't Ohio a 1 buckEYE state? 

fixed it for you

[wolc123]

Sorry ChrisW, and thanks for the Jesus bump.  We can't possibly get too much of Him just one day after Christmas.

Babe Winklemann was the first one I heard apply the selfish elitism term to the minority of bowhunters who are against the crossbow.  I did mention that in one of my earlier threads.  If you are not a fisherman you may not have heard of him but he did a few hunting shows also.  

 

What's up Doc ?

I suppose it is taking you some time to come up with your answers.   Relax, the truth will set you free.    

Edited December 26, 2016 by wolc123

[chrisw]

Sorry,
Chris and thanks for the Jesus bump.  We can't possibly get too much of Him just one day after Christmas.
 
What's up Doc ?
I suppose it is taking you some time to come up with your answers.   Relax, the truth will set you free.    

I see you pushed off responding... Typical. You're calling out Doc on not responding and here you are doing the same, why are you not a selfish elitist for wanting to force your way in to an existing season to make it easier for you but I am for wanting to keep you in your own season?

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[wolc123]

Wanting to open a season so that more folks can participate is the opposite of selfish.  You are so blinded by your own selfishness that you can not see the forest for the trees.  You will loose, hopefully by next October.   

[chrisw]

Wanting to open a season so that more folks can participate is the opposite of selfish.  You are so blinded by your own selfishness that you can not see the forest for the trees.  You will loose, hopefully by next October.   

And I could say I'm fighting it so more folks can enjoy what's left of the traditional archery season. If you didn't use a crossbow you wouldn't be fighting for it, stop fooling yourself. There are dyed in the wool traditional archers out there, I don't see you fighting for them, how about a traditional flintlock season? You don't give two hoots because they don't benefit you. And by the way it's "lose" not "loose." The participation argument is weak at best. Every implement has a season already, it's selfish of you to want more and more for yourself.

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[wolc123]

The main reason I wanted to fill those last two tags was to donate them to feed the homeless.  Is that selfish?   Also, it is tough dodging deer on my drive to and from work every weekday (and to Church on Sundays).  It is only by the grace of God and that my new car has great stopping distance that I have managed to avoid killing one with a vehicle myself.  I did tap one lightly in the hoof this fall with my bumper.  If I can save someone else from hitting one with their car is that selfish?   I wonder what the widow, kids, and parents of a guy, who was killed in our town a few years ago when a deer came thru the window of his van, would think about that.   

 

Now tell me one more time who is being selfish

[chrisw]

The main reason I wanted to fill those last two tags was to donate them to feed the homeless.  Is that selfish?   Also, it is tough dodging deer on my drive to and from work every weekday (and to Church on Sundays).  It is only by the grace of God and that my new car has great stopping distance that I have managed to avoid killing one with a vehicle myself.  I did tap one lightly in the hoof this fall with my bumper.  If I can save someone else from hitting one with their car is that selfish?   I wonder what the widow, kids, and parents of a guy, who was killed in our town a few years ago when a deer came thru the window of his van, would think about that.   
 
Now tell me one more time who is being selfish

You.

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[wolc123]

Thanks, I needed that

[Doc]

5 hours ago, wolc123 said:

Doc,

The special season for the Olympic longbow shooters would be so that those who put in all the extra time and effort required to obtain world-class abilities would be rewarded with a "special season".  Maybe it could start right after the Olympics wind up, in late August or so.  Your logic would indicate that they deserve that.  

The first deer taken in NY were probably killed by native Americans with wood longbows and stone arrowheads.   How about another early season for that, right before or after the Olympians get their crack?  Once again, this would make sense per your logic.    

As far as your gun question: I would tell those folks to learn how to use a crossbow and hunt with it.  The silence of the crossbow is a huge advantage when it comes to delaying the nocturnal changeover that occurs when the deer realize they are being hunted.  I do agree with many who think that they should have to take an archery course and learn the difference in how an arrow kills compared to a bullet.  I took that course and have killed many more deer with a vertical bow than a crossbow.   Requiring that 8 hour course would go a long way towards you keeping that "peaceful time" to which you so desperately cling.

Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member?    How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows?  Have you ever missed any clean?  If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease?  Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand?   Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy?     

    

First of all, it is not my position to add or change any of the seasons or weapons to accommodate anything. So I do not understand what the hell you are talking about in this new obfuscation attempt regarding Olympians. It has nothing to do with this thread.

So now it sounds like you are trying to shift your arguments to saying that longbows and recurves are inhumane weapons that should not be allowed at all? Yes, I agree that crossbows, shotguns and rifles are all more efficient than a bow. I'm not sure anyone has even hinted anything any different. Bow season was never intended to be something that rivaled the efficiency or accuracy of rifles, and I have no idea where you ever got the idea that is was. It was created for the use of bows and arrows ...... period. The point that I keep repeating and you keep consciously sidestepping is that the special bow hunting season was never intended to involve a more efficient weapon than a bow. The whole purpose of the season was to emphasize challenge. To me it sounds like just as I suspected your true intent is to argue that bows should be replaced by more efficient weaponry. Your emphasis seems to have now shifted in that direction. If that is so, then we no longer have anything to talk about. That is a direction that I believe you will find very little support for. But then, maybe I am wrong about that. Hunter attitudes toward bow hunting seem to have changed dramatically.

Oh and in regards to your question of where am I, I will have to confess that I do not spend the entire day here on the internet. Yes, sadly it's true, I do have a life outside of internet forums......lol.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Doc

[Doc]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

Sorry ChrisW, and thanks for the Jesus bump.  We can't possibly get too much of Him just one day after Christmas.

Babe Winklemann was the first one I heard apply the selfish elitism term to the minority of bowhunters who are against the crossbow.  I did mention that in one of my earlier threads.  If you are not a fisherman you may not have heard of him but he did a few hunting shows also.  

 

What's up Doc ?

I suppose it is taking you some time to come up with your answers.   Relax, the truth will set you free.    

And coming from the wise words of your new hero you decided that turning yourself into a parrot and repeating his words somehow made you sound so brilliant. However you fail to understand how that makes you a complete hypocrite when you then turn around and want to exclude rifles and shotguns. You too are exclusionary which you claim is another word for selfish and elitist. Or are you now saying that rifles and all other weapons should also be crammed into bow season?

[gjs4]

Every Hunter in NY feels cheated. Bow guys get pulled around w season dates, youth gun at the get go and superior weapon being rationalized as the same. Gun guys want it all and won't settle for less. The state wants snowmobilers happy and the DEC just wants deer dead so their political pressure lessens.

What will happen for full season inclusion of a crossbow? More deer die by the virtue more people hunt and they're easier to use than a vertical bow of any design.

Without a total overhaul of the deer census and Hunter take system hunting in NY will continue to suck compared to the Midwest. As stated over and over the states the crossbow guys quote do not appreciate gun season antics....but good old NY just wants them dead and knows there will always be enough places to hide and breed they can't be eradicated and us hunters are way too stupid to band together and do anything in protest.


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[Doc]

Now, lets add some reality to this debate. The fact is that the die is cast. We already have had the bow season take-over. We already have muzzleloaders moving into bow season. We already have rifles coexisting briefly with bow season. We already have further encroachments of muzzleloaders into bow seasons being threatened by the DEC. So trying to maintain bow seasons for bows is already a lost cause. However the debate is still fun, and we do need reminding periodically as to what has been done to the bow season and what will continue to be done to the season as hunter attitudes and motives continue to evolve. I do believe that it is all moving in the same directions that most of the hunting attitudes are. And while the challenge of bowhunting was always a treasured part of my bow hunting experiences, the majority is being satisfied. And let's face it, I am reaching a point in my life where most of this will soon become a moot point anyway. But I still like the debate.

[wolc123]

6 hours ago, wolc123 said:

Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member?    How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows?  Have you ever missed any clean?  If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease?  Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand?   Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy?  

Doc, you appear to have side-stepped all these questions.  Are you a professional dancer when you are not on the internet?

Also, I have never said anything about not wanting to allow folks to use compounds, recurves or longbows during archery season.  There are plenty of deer for all of us.  The more the merrier.  

Edited December 26, 2016 by wolc123

[nodeerhere]

Wolc123 u just sound like u want to mow the deer down the easiest way possible. Sounds like u will keep killing them no matter how full ur freezer is. Just because they give u 5 tags don't mean u have to fill all 5 tags

[stubborn1VT]

You can get 7 tags, shoot multiple bucks, hunt for months with multiple weapons, and still complain about vertical bow hunters who want some time and space of their own?  Huh. To each his own, I guess.

[turkeyfeathers]

15 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

You can get 7 tags, shoot multiple bucks, hunt for months with multiple weapons, and still complain about vertical bow hunters who want some time and space of their own?  Huh. To each his own, I guess.

4 dmps/2 signed over/regular gun tag/ml-archery   So actually 8

[stoneam2006]

4 dmps/2 signed over/regular gun tag/ml-archery   So actually 8

There's 9 possible

Reg season
Archery/muzz either sex
Archery/muzz antlerless
4 doe tags
2 signed over


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