SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[dbHunterNY]

On 3/2/2017 at 4:40 AM, Doc said:

Whenever these discussions get going, I am always reminded of the following quote:

"According to DEC big game specialist Jeremy Hurst, while the DEC supports voluntary antler restriction programs, it does not see a critical biological need or compelling management advantage to mandate such restrictions, adding that agency biologists see no specific management benefit associated with the AR program and do not consider antler restrictions as necessary to improve herd condition."

the context that it's said is important. so isn't the use of the word "critical".  the deer herd as a whole and even in some areas isn't broken.  DEC has published data that says yearling/young buck harvest is continuously going down.  also that we have a 1.7:1 doe to buck ratio. it should be a big red flag if a biologist said buck to doe ratio is fine regardless of age structure. so in the context of their projection for the state as a whole it doesn't seem to be needed. however, no biologist should say that young bucks living isn't important from a biological perspective.  DEC big game staff has gotten called out by national biologists for loosely using the words "no biological need".  this isn't me simply pondering text on the internet.  i've talked to Hurst the big game leader about it and seen DEC staff get called out.  Hell, he himself sees benefits of antler restrictions.  He voluntarily continues to hunt property that has had voluntary antler restrictions for well over a decade.  notice it's all carefully worded as to not say there's no advantage or biological need at all.  also the biologists don't see a specific benefit with the AR program given their outlook where things are going. yet DEC openly admits there otherwise are multiple management benefit to the AR program, such as "A majority of hunters in the pilot AR units prefer that the program continue (report they did on June 2011, after they'd been in place)".  not posting this to really plead the case for this legislation, so much as provide food for thought.  DEC's outlook and stance as a group is based on state averages. some areas do quite well with the stats to show it, while others not nearly as much.  going back to the one size fits all approach doesn't work.  it'd be ignorant to ignore ARs would help some WMU's a great deal, despite for others it probably wouldn't do a darn thing.  hunter emotions are the only thing driving this to be a state wide thing. there's always a boarder to complain about no matter how far away.

[dbHunterNY]

On 3/2/2017 at 5:59 AM, phade said:

But but but there's science involved! Lol.


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On 3/2/2017 at 7:56 AM, phade said:

Let's step back and look at the big picture...ignore the red mark from a prior discussion.

 

not saying that portions of the legislation maybe questionable, but some individuals FOIL'ed info from DEC and unexpectedly got DEC's prepped plan for statewide antler restrictions that they were prepared to roll out if the Structured Decision Making model was blatantly conclusive.  that included all the surveys discussed here and data you continue to post like that above, which i find funny.  sorry if i find it ridiculous to play along and think DEC doesn't do science.  for anyone who think's what i typed is fabricated and just a conspiracy, feel free to ignore it knowing i'm not clever enough to make it up.

[buckman4c]

22 hours ago, Larry said:

I’m going to address two issues here.

1: do you really want wildlife management though the legislation?

We all know what state we live in. So do you really want the NY state legislature to do an end run around the DEC. If you do think that having the state legislature manage wildlife is the way to go then we should ask for the elimination of the DEC. Weather agree with how the DEC manages wildlife or not it’s still is better than having down state anti-gun and hunting legislators doing the managing for us.

This legislation is being brought forth on behalf of one individual and his origination that origination is The New York Whitetail Management Coalition the founder claims he and his group can manage deer better than the DEC and maybe they can and  maybe they can’t. The point here is do you want anyone group or origination dictating though legislation how the rest of us hunt. Be careful what you wish for you may get it.

2:   Antler Restrictions Not Needed

Pa. hit a mile stone with 59% of the bucks harvested in their deer season, were 2 1/2 years old or better. It sounds like a great accomplishment until you look closer at how it was done. To make it to 59% it took 14 years of antler restrictions with up to 4pt’s on one side. That’s still saying that about 40% of the bucks harvested are 1 ½ year old bucks that have 3 or in some cases 4 points on one side or better. (It’s called high grading). They also in the process decimated there deer herd with the miss guided notion that killing does gives you more bucks.

Now let’s take a look at NY in the same time frame. Here in NY with little in the way of AR’s we stand at 52% of the bucks taken that are 2 ½ years and older. So maybe in 5 or 6 years with passing on smaller bucks being now promoted by the DEC, we could be at the 60% mark and no one will be forced into AR’s. It will be just an attitude change. 

The DEC has given landowners the tools to manage deer on their land the way they want. Landowners under a pretty liberal frame work can manage deer on their property. It will be interesting how the buck harvest age structure comes out for this season on the harvest report.

Good info. Larry.

However, allow me to point out a couple things about my home State (Pa). #1. Foremost, In 2001 when AR was introduced, we had approx. 800,00 gun hunters. Previous to this point, our buck harvest consisted of 75-80% yearling bucks and upwards of 80% of ALL available bucks. Secondly, AR was 3 pts. to side (typical six point) for the vast majority of the state. Only a few Counties in the western part of the state had a (4) pt. rule. Current day AR is 3pt. one side for majority of counties and a (3) "UP" point rule for those western counties. A slight change but none the less more easily determined by hunters. Thirdly, Herd reduction was seriously needed in Pa. Our habitat qualities (winter habitat in particular) was being devastated with too many deer for a very long time. Winter severity in Pa is not like NY which over time results in lower overwinter kill but they depend on the same food sources (browse). Essentially we carried too many deer(doe) over from one year to the next and habitat suffered.

  AT NO POINT IN TIME was the management plan ever presented that killing more doe would result in more bucks. I'm not sure where you got that from?  What was presented was, we need to reduce the overall population of our deer herd because they are devastating the habitat. And, we need better age structure in our deer herd for healthier breeding ecology by implementing AR to protect the "majority" of 1.5 year old bucks. Period.

Many people have twisted this information to their agenda over the years.

  In the end, AR and HR were needed although many would argue the contrary. Our age structure was dismal prior to AR because yearlings were getting crucified every year. If you look at the stats now, yes, we reached "only" 59% of the buck harvest is 2.5 yrs. of age or older but that's compared to 20-25% prior to AR because there just weren't many out there. That's a huge improvement in age structure.

  Current day, we are actually in a herd stabilizing or herd increase mode for most of the State. They have reduced doe allocations almost state wide and reduced the number of days we can hunt doe in rifle season. We also have 300,000 fewer hunters which could result in yet more changes because of having fewer hunters to do the job. I anticipate a higher number of doe tags being issued and if our numbers continue to dwindle pulling back on AR some day OR allowing a second buck tag with AR in order to keep the herd from growing too much.

  In regards to "high grading", I would argue that killing 75-80% of yearlings every year is much more detrimental to a herd than targeting bucks that are 2.5 and older. We all know it's much easier killing 1.5 year old bucks than any older than that. AR is NOT a trophy plan by the standards set in Pa or would they be in NY. Allowing a majority of bucks to reach 2.5 years old doesn't mean you will have monster bucks. We have definitely seen improvements in our bucks from the perspective of body weight and antler but that's really only because of more reaching 2.5 years of age than before.

  I will say this: In regards to Ny, the dynamics are much different, as I said winter loss is much more significant in Ny. You have fewer hunters than Pa and as you have shown, the harvest rate is much more balanced by age group of the bucks than ours was many years ago. AR may not be beneficial to Ny like it was in Pa but maybe it would be. Only those who actually study the dynamics could really say what the probabilities are.

[Five Seasons]

I think the outdoors thing for me is about comfort lol. a nice heated or at least sheltered garage or barn is just nicer.

Buckmaster, I don't understand why people don't make that 3 minute phone call. Sure the system is frustrating at times but the dismissal of it doesn't help anyone. I hope that changes.

[growalot]

Want to talk age structure...I'll be in a 4pt AR zone...Tell me how does it save these type of buck...because these are not "mature" buck...If you need pictures of mature buck...I can post those up as well. BTW 2 1/2 isn't a mature buck either...I wouldn't put them in the "older" classification. None of the buck shown have the head structure nor body structure of a mature white tail buck.  What they all have is 4pts on at least one side.

[Rack Attack]

Grow, to be honest, I can't tell for sure on the first picture if that deer has brows but it doesn't look like it.  The 2nd and 3rd picture are of the same deer and that doesn't looks to have brows either and I wouldn't call that tiny sticker an inch.  The last pic is of a 2 1/2 YO 8 that would be legal under the new proposal (not mature, but not a 1 1/2 YO).  So I guess my point is of the deer you posted only 1 would be killed if in fact there is three deer represented here and that one would be 2 1/2.

[dbHunterNY]

23 minutes ago, growalot said:

Want to talk age structure...I'll be in a 4pt AR zone...Tell me how does it save these type of buck...because these are not "mature" buck...If you need pictures of mature buck...I can post those up as well. BTW 2 1/2 isn't a mature buck either...I wouldn't put them in the "older" classification. None of the buck shown have the head structure nor body structure of a mature white tail buck.  What they all have is 4pts on at least one side.

antler restrictions are typically just meant to ensure bucks get to 2.5+ yrs old to be harvested or at least protect a majority of yearlings not around half at best where we are now.  especially if promoted on such a large scale, they can't be overly restrictive.  if you start getting into the intent to protect bucks 2.5+ yrs old you're starting to get into "trophy management" the older and more restrictive you go.  most of us know if you want monster bucks that's the place for voluntary more restrictive antler restrictions or restraint works.  most hunters in NY in my opinion are content with shooting anything older than a yearling, so that's "big" enough for them.  for truely big bucks for your area that are beyond others standards, the only practical way to take advantage of genetics is to let younger bucks with bigger antlers continue to walk.  that's a social issue and subjective straight up.

[growalot]

Seeing these were from my cams, I enlarged each and had other pics. of them as well. They all had brow tines. I chose these particular angles to not only show the racks but the heads and bodies. Also that second pic...that buck has both brow tines and you can see the one is just barely over that 1" limit on length.

[dbHunterNY]

23 minutes ago, Rack Attack said:

Grow, to be honest, I can't tell for sure on the first picture if that deer has brows but it doesn't look like it.  The 2nd and 3rd picture are of the same deer and that doesn't looks to have brows either and I wouldn't call that tiny sticker an inch.  The last pic is of a 2 1/2 YO 8 that would be legal under the new proposal (not mature, but not a 1 1/2 YO).  So I guess my point is of the deer you posted only 1 would be killed if in fact there is three deer represented here and that one would be 2 1/2.

i have to assume she's looked at more photos of each buck, including knowing if a particular one has brow tines.  some are in velvet which complicates things.  if she says they've all got a 4 1" points on a side than i have to take her word.  we're just seeing a snap shot in time, not the view of multiple pictures or visual you'd get if you were there.  to drive home your conclusion 2.5 yr olds are still getting taken which would be the intent. 

[Buckmaster7600]

Want to talk age structure...I'll be in a 4pt AR zone...Tell me how does it save these type of buck...because these are not "mature" buck...If you need pictures of mature buck...I can post those up as well. BTW 2 1/2 isn't a mature buck either...I wouldn't put them in the "older" classification. None of the buck shown have the head structure nor body structure of a mature white tail buck.  What they all have is 4pts on at least one side.

I fail to see your point? Yes those 2 1/2 yr old bucks would be legal but I'm willing to bet that you just like me have 10+ 1 1/2yr old buck pictures to every 1 of the 2 1/2yr olds. I am against any mandated AR but there is no doubt that they do save a majority of yr and a half old bucks. In my opinion once a buck reaches its 2nd year it has learned a bunch on how to stay alive and has a much better chance of making to to maturity.


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[growalot]

Quote

the only practical way to take advantage of genetics is to let younger bucks with bigger antlers continue to walk

Glad you mentioned genetics.. now mind you I do realize doe do have some contributing factors to rack size in buck...That said When your out and about in an area yearly(daily) when a number of cameras 24/7 for years...One gains a certain knowledge through sight. Genetic tendencies tend to "pop" in and area. Such as with this guy (3 pic)...  who showed up as a 6pt last year and was/is ? 3 1/2. this due to having been personally 3 ft from him ,but also pictures of him as far back as 2014. I mentioned passing his young 1 1/2 old twin racked off spring(?) on the forums last year. Now as far as the first deer in picture above..These were taken in the same plot a few days later note the brow tines...also his buddies with him, at least one show a body size comparison.

PS.... in first pics...all deer were different deer.

Edited March 3, 2017 by growalot

[hookster]

legal and not legal

This does not make sense

[Trial153]

It makes perfect sense, why is so hard to grasp a simple concept. Right now both of the above bucks may/could get killed . With ARs one will not get killed and one/could may get killed.
Pretty simple.

[growalot]

There ya go I have older spikes here as well...Now will a spike always be a spike.  In most cases of course not.. but when  they are,or a 4 and 6 remain so ,how is that beneficial to the herd. Let's not quibble over this,there has been enough guys on here that have shot actual  "mature" buck with such racks and had them aged.

[hookster]

what doesn't make sense is with AR top gets killed when the bottom should

[Trial153]

what doesn't make sense is with AR top gets killed when the bottom should

Neither should be killed, unfortunately we have hunters here that will shoot anything with a bone sticking out of their head. So we are stuck doing the best we can with the simpleton clientele we have.

[hookster]

I may not be a biologist but looks to me like top is a 1.5 bottom is 2.5+

JMHO

[The_Real_TCIII]

How the term "once a spike always a spike" ever got any traction at all boggles my mind. I see 5-7 different yearling spikes a season and have only seen a couple older spikes in my 24 years hunting deer

[growalot]

The point is Mandatory AR's do not protect the majority of young buck,at least not in all areas...those 6,7,8  pts that can be shot, might as well be a 11/2 old 4pt. Either way none of them are mature. When A guy is forced to count points..he's more likely to shoot the first one he sees with that requirement fulfilled.

BTW Buckmaster you'd be wrong.,,.one of  the reasons I didn't post as many buck pics. as in the past....Why I'll continue not posting them.  In a high hunter,high deer density area, go figure, and with out a need for AR' s. Yet here's the thing...when doe refused to give me a chance at meat I was able to take a 6pt. When an older guy with no money and little food need a deer...Well doe didn't show then either and my buck tag went to feed him..he cut off the rack and mounted it to give to me...it will be my one and only mount,he cried when I delivered it to him....So deer take needs to remain a choice. When the biologist want to spend a year side by side on the lands I hunt .When they do the "leg"  work I do to gather the info  for this area that I do...That means actually speaking with people seeing pics ,getting sighting info...then I'll consider what they have to say. See the guys in the Cornell statistical unit..haven't a clue

Edited March 3, 2017 by growalot

[growalot]

CLIENTELE...There it is,in a nut shell. BTW..I have seen many 21/2 old spikes in this area over the years...the one That pierced a hole through Mr B' s truck  was one...We get them with very wide and wide wrap around racks..I have mentioned the " halo" bucks often.

Edited March 3, 2017 by growalot

[Trial153]

This gets better every freaking page.
Statistics from one of the most well regarded biological programs in the country are thrown out the window in favor of Anecdotal observations on your back 40.

[Buckmaster7600]

The point is Mandatory AR's do not protect the majority of young buck,at least not in all areas...those 6,7,8  pts that can be shot, might as well be a 11/2 old 4pt. Either way none of them are mature. When A guy is forced to count points..he's more likely to shoot the first one he sees with that requirement fulfilled.
BTW Buckminster you'd be wrong.,,.one of  the reasons I didn't post as many buck pics. as in the past....Why I'll continue not posting them.  In a high hunter,high deer density area, go figure, and with out a need for AR' s. Yet here's the thing...when doe refused to give me a chance at meat I was able to take a 6pt. When an older guy with no money and little food need a deer...Well doe didn't show then either and my buck tag went to feed him..he cut off the rack and mounted it to give to me...it will be my one and only mount,he cried when I delivered it to him....So deer take needs to remain a choice. When the biologist want to spend a year side by side on the lands I hunt .When they do the "leg"  work I do to gather the info  for this area that I do...That means actually speaking with people seeing pics ,getting sighting info...then I'll consider what they have to say. See the guys in the Cornell statistical unit..haven't a clue

I'm assuming I'm "buckminster"? What again am I wrong about?


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[growalot]

Yes..kindle..takes time to find the auto corrects...when it makes sentences...I have to remember what I wrote. I had a few of those...

Wrong on bet of percentages...Sorry can't do quotes on this nor picture down loads..to be perfectly honest..I over did and I'm soaking in a very hot tub typing this. Could be the cold got to me...

Edited March 3, 2017 by growalot

[Buckmaster7600]

Yes..kindle..takes time to find the auto corrects...when it makes sentences...I have to remember what I wrote. I had a few of those...
Wrong on bet of percentages...Sorry can't do quotes on this nor picture down loads..to be perfectly honest..I over did and I'm soaking in a very hot tub typing this. Could be the cold got to me...

I wish I had your age structure on our farm! Even my lease in Ohio we average 6-1 yearlings-2 1/2+. As I said before I HATE mandatory AR's but I do believe that they add age to the male deer herd.

There will always be freaks, around my house I have shot two 200lb deer one was a 6 and the other was a 5 the 6 was 4 1/2 and the 5 was 6 1/2+. They are not the norm although it seems like our local bucks didn't have brow tines for a few years but it looks like that is going away.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 hour ago, hookster said:

what doesn't make sense is with AR top gets killed when the bottom should

In all honesty, that first year rack may be a very poor indicator of that bucks potential. Factors like a very late breeding cycle resulting in a very late birth could keep that first year rack lower than it should be. Among other factors.