Pro Hunting Show Fail

[Buckmaster7600]

"And in terms of the food plot vs. the food pile or mechanical feeder, I don't think there is a hunter around (especially bow hunters) that doesn't understand the difference if they are to be honest. There really is no need to repeat all the differences that have already been noted. They are all pretty obvious anyway."


Having hunted over food plots/corn piles and feeders I will tell you from my experience there is absolutely not a bit of difference between them other than some moron in Albany deciding what one is legal. You are changing a deers natural habits to make it "easier" to kill them. If you know what you are doing when making a food plot using fence and/or trees you can make a deer travel as close to your stand as you want, no different than a bait pile. Want deer to be within 20yds of your stand in your corn field? Mow the corn that's within 20yds of your stand. This stuff isn't rocket science!

That being said you can bait deer with a feeder, with a pile of corn or bait them with a clover plot you still have to get a deer you want to kill to come to them in daylight within range.

All hunting shows make what they are doing look easy. It's not hard to get 5 minutes worth of deer footage during a 7 day hunt. To the ignorant viewer who sees a buck come to a feeder and get shot during the 5 minutes of hunting I can see how you would think wow that's too easy.





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[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

13 plots....never shot  buck on one of them in 15+ years....Gosh slam dunk! LOL

Personal choice Yes?  You still attracted those deer to that spot by using food and the deer's need to have it. 

Pile or Plant is still doing the same attracting.

[WNYBuckHunter]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

13 plots....never shot  buck on one of them in 15+ years....Gosh slam dunk! LOL

How many have you killed that were on their way to or from them?

 

We have a bunch of plots as well, I have yet to shoot a buck off of one, but its not due to lack of opportunity at a buck. I have passed a ton of younger bucks on the plots. I have had mature ones out in front of me in them, just couldnt get a good, clear shot at the mature ones.

[NFA-ADK]

I find it funny when we say we do not want to draw deer off others property with baiting yet we can have acorns, corn, clover and any other food we plan and think this IS NOT pulling deer off other peoples properties?  Baiting wars started a long time ago we just call them food plots. 

I don't agree with baiting but we still do it with food plots anyway.  I also bait using calls, rattling and deer scents. 

  

 

[Doc]

4 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

"And in terms of the food plot vs. the food pile or mechanical feeder, I don't think there is a hunter around (especially bow hunters) that doesn't understand the difference if they are to be honest. There really is no need to repeat all the differences that have already been noted. They are all pretty obvious anyway."


Having hunted over food plots/corn piles and feeders I will tell you from my experience there is absolutely not a bit of difference between them other than some moron in Albany deciding what one is legal. You are changing a deers natural habits to make it "easier" to kill them. If you know what you are doing when making a food plot using fence and/or trees you can make a deer travel as close to your stand as you want, no different than a bait pile. Want deer to be within 20yds of your stand in your corn field? Mow the corn that's within 20yds of your stand. This stuff isn't rocket science!

That being said you can bait deer with a feeder, with a pile of corn or bait them with a clover plot you still have to get a deer you want to kill to come to them in daylight within range.

All hunting shows make what they are doing look easy. It's not hard to get 5 minutes worth of deer footage during a 7 day hunt. To the ignorant viewer who sees a buck come to a feeder and get shot during the 5 minutes of hunting I can see how you would think wow that's too easy.

I can only believe what I see with my own eyes. There is no fakery going on there except for those that try to set up their hunting with the feeder just outside the picture. Those half dozen or more bucks, and does, and fawns casually milling around the base of a feeder are animals that have been conditioned to show up at that  exact spot for their food and are as comfortable with that as any form of livestock that is regularly fed at a specific location and even at a specific time. It is not animal hunting, it is animal training.

I also can see the expensive machinery with timers and distribution systems that are on the market. I also see the extent of the box-blinds that people have set up over feeders. All very expensive and labor intensive and set up with nothing less than a guarantee that if they have trained the deer in that area to rely on that food source properly, a kill can be assured. I have to tell you that it is a real hard sell to convince me that these guys are doing all of that because they like to throw away money and time on something that doesn't work.....especially the hunters whose paycheck relies on weekly success. It could be that those that are claiming that it doesn't work simply aren't doing it right. Do you really believe that these guys who have to come up with a dead deer or two every week for their TV show (without fail) are not using feeders where legal? Heck, some of them have been caught using bait even where it is not legal. And all that is because baiting does work! These guys are professionals and have to have predictable and certain results. It is their livelihood. So in my mind there is no question that baiting does work. Nobody would be arguing for legalization if it didn't work and work damn well.

Whether you are for it or not, that is a personal decision regarding how far you will go for a "successful" deer season. I personally draw the line at conditioning deer to enable easier hunting. That's my choice. Others may draw the line somewhere else and that is up to them (and the law). But when logic, economics, and filmed evidence are available in so many video accounts of baited hunts, let's not deny the obvious advantages of bait. Armed with an honest approach to bait, what you do with that info and what opinions you settle in on is your own business. I am just up-front about the fact that it doesn't fit into my version of hunting, and I don't apologize for that.

 

[chrisw]

Exactly right, if attracting a deer to a certain spot to try to kill them is unethical, immoral etc. How many guys hunt over a scrape/mock scrape? Or set off a buck bomb and hope a buck walks up to it for a shot? You can argue it's different when it's food vs an animals instinct to breed which is true, but the instinct to breed is stronger than finding food, so wouldn't it be even more unsportsmanlike to attract them via estrus to a specific location? Deer get accustomed to food plots for food, same as a feeder. Deer learn to avoid going to feeders if pressured, same as a food plot. It's amazing to me that people get the notion that a feeder makes all of the deer stupid and reckless. It might make you feel better to hunt a food plot, it has less of a stigma to it, but make no mistake you sir are "legally" baiting.

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[growalot]

I thought on that question WNYBH while I was out pruning the apple/friut trees...I actually have to say none...Now that's said, I do know they were coming off or going to the big farm fields and I also killed them in the swamp areas and going to or coming out of those swamp bedding areas... The 8 pt I shot 2 years ago came out of the swamp bedding jumped the fence and landed in the middle of the lane way plot but the second his feet hit the ground he was in the woods and was running through those woods toward the big farm fields up the hill when I shot him...I would say that's the closest, but he wasn't in that plot 3 seconds.The other 8 was in the middle of our swamp,no where near any food plots or farm fields. I hunt my woods mostly even though the big blinds/stands are on the plots. I get lots of pics of buck walking under stand past stands and blinds on the plots but never when I'm anywhere near them..or they are too young to shoot. I usually get them around bedding or the areas they chase doe in.

PS...I have shot plenty of doe in the plots...but they too have been mainly to and from bedding over the years...and at camp there are no farm fields anywhere and there are no plots any where...those where woods with mast and bedding

Edited March 20, 2017 by growalot

[BizCT]

Plain and simple:


Either allow all baiting (grown or placed) or prohibit it all.


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[growalot]

4 seasons I can't say yes to that...I just do not know...I've never baited and as you well know most of my plot traffic is at night or fawn and doe at dusk and dawn...Not that they know where I'll be because I am now working on close to 40 different sets and even I don't know where I'll be any given day until the wind hits my face. So I do not know if a pile of anything would draw them differently then a plot...I do know I watch a lot of deer in bow season out of range walking the edges moments before opening and closing for the day.

This is one of the reason I put in so many small plots in so many different places and have so many many sets......I do not want a slam dunk...I enjoy being frustrated even with all the frustration that goes with it, some times we need to understand not all b..itching is bad. Sometimes it is just part of the fun in something...

[Buckmaster7600]

I can only believe what I see with my own eyes. There is no fakery going on there except for those that try to set up their hunting with the feeder just outside the picture. Those half dozen or more bucks, and does, and fawns casually milling around the base of a feeder are animals that have been conditioned to show up at that  exact spot for their food and are as comfortable with that as any form of livestock that is regularly fed at a specific location and even at a specific time. It is not animal hunting, it is animal training.
I also can see the expensive machinery with timers and distribution systems that are on the market. I also see the extent of the box-blinds that people have set up over feeders. All very expensive and labor intensive and set up with nothing less than a guarantee that if they have trained the deer in that area to rely on that food source properly, a kill can be assured. I have to tell you that it is a real hard sell to convince me that these guys are doing all of that because they like to throw away money and time on something that doesn't work.....especially the hunters whose paycheck relies on weekly success. It could be that those that are claiming that it doesn't work simply aren't doing it right. Do you really believe that these guys who have to come up with a dead deer or two every week for their TV show (without fail) are not using feeders where legal? Heck, some of them have been caught using bait even where it is not legal. And all that is because baiting does work! These guys are professionals and have to have predictable and certain results. It is their livelihood. So in my mind there is no question that baiting does work. Nobody would be arguing for legalization if it didn't work and work damn well.
Whether you are for it or not, that is a personal decision regarding how far you will go for a "successful" deer season. I personally draw the line at conditioning deer to enable easier hunting. That's my choice. Others may draw the line somewhere else and that is up to them (and the law). But when logic, economics, and filmed evidence are available in so many video accounts of baited hunts, let's not deny the obvious advantages of bait. Armed with an honest approach to bait, what you do with that info and what opinions you settle in on is your own business. I am just up-front about the fact that it doesn't fit into my version of hunting, and I don't apologize for that.
 

When did I say it didn't work?


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[growalot]

Now oak tress are being added to this baiting scenario?(the mention of acorns)...lol That's stretching it really...both camp and home are loaded with mature oaks, that where there long before we were...also apple orchards...these were all old farmsteads before we were born....Even clover..yes I plant clover but the deer hang on the neighbors that won't plant..but they did take my advise and mowed trails and opened up every wild apple tree they found. See here, where ever you mow,just mow...clover grows. As long as it's never been sprayed, you'll have a lush weed filled clover trail the deer love. So these things are to be considered bait if you hunt the land? Come on...The things we all talk ourselves into to makes us feel superior to the next guy...More human nature, I honestly can't wipe the dumbfounded grin off my face.

[chrisw]

Doc, noone ever denied that baiting isn't effective? It's just not as effective as you're giving it credit for in most people's scenarios. You keep bringing up TV shows as proof of something, these shows don't portray real life hunting situations. When was the last time you saw 10 bucks over 100" in a food plot? I'm willing to bet never. These shows you keep relating to isn't realistic, therefore saying that if you plant food plots and do everything they do on tv, would you have the same results as they do? Absolutely not. Baiting can be effective, food plots can be effective, hunting over a picked corn field can be effective, hunting over a wild or planted apple tree can be effective, let's not act like they're so much different.

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[Doc]

17 hours ago, chrisw said:

Doc, noone ever denied that baiting isn't effective? It's just not as effective as you're giving it credit for in most people's scenarios. You keep bringing up TV shows as proof of something, these shows don't portray real life hunting situations. When was the last time you saw 10 bucks over 100" in a food plot? I'm willing to bet never. These shows you keep relating to isn't realistic, therefore saying that if you plant food plots and do everything they do on tv, would you have the same results as they do? Absolutely not. Baiting can be effective, food plots can be effective, hunting over a picked corn field can be effective, hunting over a wild or planted apple tree can be effective, let's not act like they're so much different.

Well it is difficult to quantify effectiveness of a procedure without a very extensive scientific study which none of us are capable of performing. So I do have to rely on evidence publicly attainable. That being TV programs and magazine articles. That is what provides quite a large number of incidents for forming an opinion. It is credible because video evidence is difficult to fake as a general rule. And when I see shots that show the hunters in their blind, and a long open shooting lane, and a feeder at the end of that shooting lane, and a half dozen bucks and numerous does and fawns all feeding there, I call that significant evidence that the baiting works and has  the potential for being damned effective and has indeed modified deer behavior to make the hunt "easy" and in my opinion, extremely easy. Those portrayals are not only "realistic", but is indisputable, viewable evidence that it is a realistic hunting situation. And so I must ask, what is NOT realistic about it? Are those fake deer? is that a fake blind? Are those deer not trained to be accustomed to coming to that spot for a food handout? What is not real about that  baited hunt? And bear in mind that that is not just one lone show.

Some where you got the idea that I approve of food plots and am interested in justifying them. I do not have any food plots or do I hunt over any food plots. However, pure logic and common sense tells me that the larger the food source, the more diffused the population using it. So those claiming that food plots are identical to bait piles simply are not right. The motivations may be similar but the scope of effectiveness is no where near the same. That is the only thing that I have said about food plots. I personally don't like any of it. As I have said numerous times I don't want anything to do with hunting practices that condition a wild deer herd to revise their behavior to accommodate my lack of hunting skill. It's a personal limit that regards deer as something other than an agricultural project. I don't try to force it on anybody, but I damn sure will not apologize for those feelings about hunting, and will offer that viewpoint whenever the subject comes up.

Others may want to treat deer like livestock and as long as it's legal, that is their right. I don't have to like it, I don't have to silence my dislike, and I have no problem stating my opinion on that. I fully expect others to disagree, and that too is their right.

[chrisw]

Doc, all of the "feeder" references you just stated about sitting in blinds with a rifle picking off deer are the same scenarios for a food plot? The reason I discredit your "Tv proof" is because these scenarios are for the vast majority, a large tract of land, intensely managed, void of real hunting pressure with plenty of deer. That's not what the average guy will ever be able to do on his back 40. And I'd also assume that a lot of these feeder hunting episodes are in Texas, they cannot plant big plots due to climate conditions therefore they use the alternative. You state that baiting makes it extremely easy to kill your quarry yet a lot of southern states have huge hog problems. Maybe you should go down and enlighten them on how easy it would be to eradicate them with a pile of corn... How about coyotes? We can bait them right here in NY, how come people still find them so difficult to kill?
Deer get "trained" by nature to eat at certain places. A wild oak Grove for example, typically during the right time of year they are being hammered by the deer. You can go in and hunt it a couple of times with the wrong wind and you can bet those deer are going to associate you with said area of feeding and therefore become very cautious as to how/when they feed there. Same as a food plot or feeder.
For the last time, you are associating what you see on TV and accepting it as reality. Big mistake. You say it's pretty hard to fake what you see on video? Have you ever watched a news station with a political agenda? (All of them) if you were to watch a particular channel for too long you'd start believing what they say unquestionably, although what you're watching isn't accurate. Maybe the problem is you've never hunted over bait or a food plot, and that's your right, but to have foolish assumptions about something you've never done and tell the people that have they are wrong, is the ultimate ignorance. Disagreeing with a practice is your right. Disagreeing with a practice because of a lack of understanding and rampant assumptions is foolish.


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[Doc]

3 hours ago, chrisw said:

Doc, all of the "feeder" references you just stated about sitting in blinds with a rifle picking off deer are the same scenarios for a food plot? The reason I discredit your "Tv proof" is because these scenarios are for the vast majority, a large tract of land, intensely managed, void of real hunting pressure with plenty of deer. That's not what the average guy will ever be able to do on his back 40. And I'd also assume that a lot of these feeder hunting episodes are in Texas, they cannot plant big plots due to climate conditions therefore they use the alternative. You state that baiting makes it extremely easy to kill your quarry yet a lot of southern states have huge hog problems. Maybe you should go down and enlighten them on how easy it would be to eradicate them with a pile of corn... How about coyotes? We can bait them right here in NY, how come people still find them so difficult to kill?
Deer get "trained" by nature to eat at certain places. A wild oak Grove for example, typically during the right time of year they are being hammered by the deer. You can go in and hunt it a couple of times with the wrong wind and you can bet those deer are going to associate you with said area of feeding and therefore become very cautious as to how/when they feed there. Same as a food plot or feeder.
For the last time, you are associating what you see on TV and accepting it as reality. Big mistake. You say it's pretty hard to fake what you see on video? Have you ever watched a news station with a political agenda? (All of them) if you were to watch a particular channel for too long you'd start believing what they say unquestionably, although what you're watching isn't accurate. Maybe the problem is you've never hunted over bait or a food plot, and that's your right, but to have foolish assumptions about something you've never done and tell the people that have they are wrong, is the ultimate ignorance. Disagreeing with a practice is your right. Disagreeing with a practice because of a lack of understanding and rampant assumptions is foolish.


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Well conservation law is not written only for "what the average guy will ever be able to do on his back 40". Yes, we even here in lowly NYS, have some rather huge chunks of private land that is completely controlled just as those Texas ranches. Some of it even fenced in and posted and as tightly controlled as any in Texas. But I don't doubt that given enough time deer can be conditioned to make a baited spot almost anywhere a regular part of their pattern.

Now remember that we are talking about baiting deer and not hogs and coyotes or any other species. So please don't be expanding it beyond what the original discussion. There are wide variations in intelligence and natural self preservation instincts and abilities when you jump species and start talking about something other than what we have been talking about. I mean really, you don't want me to introduce the topic of baiting mice to a mouse trap or poison do you? ...... lol.

And I hope I don't have to repeat that the TV programs are "real deer", and the "real deer" are "really shot" and "really drawn" to the "real shot" by "real bait". Yes indeed it is all real. Now, are you saying that these televised hunts are manufactured fake videos? Come on, I am a pretty skeptical guy myself, but I would never even try to get anyone to believe that these programs aren't flat out recordings of "real" happenings. That's like the conspiracy theorists who claim the moon walk never happened.....lol. Take my word for it. Those deer were really reacting to being conditioned to respond to the feeders and they were really shot. It is just plain silly to seriously deny that. And there's not anything occurring there that could not be duplicated on any of the hunting preserves that we have here in NYS. Whether those results represent what any average Joe could replicate, I have no opinion on that nor is that even relevant.

Quote: "Maybe the problem is you've never hunted over bait or a food plot". Well, I have never been on a canned hunt either, but I think I am smart enough to recognize the advantage that would be on a hunt. In my mind I think that conditioning deer to come to a bait is not something that I want to be involved in. The whole concept is not a part of my hunting philosophies. I do not want to have to say that I got my deer because I trained them to come to me to get their food. Frankly, that just sounds wrong to me and I don't want any part of that. You can do what you think you need to do, but count me out.  

Now I know I am getting repetitive and that gets boring real quick. So I probably will not stay engaged in this conversation since all I have to say, has been said, and I don't have any more simple and clear ways to say the same thing.

[wolc123]

We just switched from cable to Direct TV and picked up a couple outdoor channels.   "Created Outdoors" was a good show, that I saw for the first time last night.   It was encouraging to see the credit given to Jesus Christ for hunting success.   I know my own hunting and fishing have gotten much better, since I made the connection that it is thru Jesus Christ that all blessings flow.    It is good to see that finally moving into the mainstream in the hunting community.   This should help some more hunters wake up.   After spending considerable time on this site, I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who made that connection. There are far too many people out there, cluelessing wondering why they lack hunting success.  Al Linder clued me in on fishing several years ago with his Anglers edge talks.  Here is a hint for you folks who are struggling: spend a little more time reading the Bible.  Do that and a lot more than just your hunting and fishing might improve.