Age this one

[ncountry]

17 minutes ago, growalot said:

Well I was looking through my 1 1/2 pics ..to be honest so many I couldn't choose from spikes to 8's, a whole lot of 6's ...But while looking and yes the date is correct...I came across this...do you see it..I almost missed it it's so tiny

No, I didn't at 1st.. that is a little one for the end of August. 

[moog5050]

42 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

           I hunt 9n  plenty of forage and lots of ag. We see very few spikes fork horns or anything smaller then 6 points.if we record 4 bucks smaller then a 6 in one year that's it. I'm not talking the whole unit just my little corner. But like I have said judging from a pic is just guessing. Look at the buck Chas posted the neck line meets the brisket a lot nicer then the other one also the nose as some shape to it not as narrow as the first buck. And I would call chases buck a 2.5.

             If there is no way that buck   is a 1.5 the most of the bucks born on and around me are born as 2.5 and we have no 1.5 year olds. Sorry if you do not see bucks like this but just because you don't does not mean I dont. Size  comes from more then just age. What they have to eat and where they live has a lot to do with it as well. A well fed animal will be bigger then a poorly fed one. Why is it so hard to believe that could be a 1.5? Is it just because he has more then 3 little points?

I see plenty of bucks stubby.  You are the only person suggesting that buck is 1.5.   Wonder why.   You must be the only person that knows what he is talking about - ahhh nope!

[NYBowhunter]

I have been hunting for 30 years and i have seen and shot quite a few big ones and i have yet to see or harvest a 1 1/2 year old that big. 

Moog, to your original  question on the age of that deer, to be honest in my area of central NY that buck is a  3 1/2 yr. Old all day long, but from what i have seen come out of the western portion of our fine state he could pass for a 2 1/2 yr. Old.

[growalot]

Are you talking body size or rack?

[stubby68]

2 hours ago, moog5050 said:

I see plenty of bucks stubby.  You are the only person suggesting that buck is 1.5.   Wonder why.   You must be the only person that knows what he is talking about - ahhh nope!

I said 2.5 for this deer. I said  he could be a 1.5 around here. I also never said you do not see bucks. I said bucks like this. Just because there good size bodied deer around our area does not mean they are every where. I have hunted places where , as someone already said it would be a 3.5 year old. If this deer could be older then 2.5 in some areas then why can't it be younger in some. When did I say any of you didn't know what they were talking about. There things about that deer that in my normal hunting areas would make it a 1.5 year old. I never said he would be a 1.5 every where. Put a set of spikes on him or make him a tiny 4 point everyone would have said 1.5 years.chases deer is bigger and has body shape then the one you posted his is decently a 2.5.Antler size leads little to the age of a buck. Not saying it has nothing to do with it just very little. I am sure more then one of us has seen ,gotten or knows of a 3.5 or older that had spokes or 4 points. Like I said sorry that you do not see 1.5 year olds with good rack and body. My area has them. 

[moog5050]

11 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

Like I said sorry that you do not see 1.5 year olds with good rack and body. My area has them. 

You take the saying "Ignorance is bliss" to a new level.    King of assumptions, both with how you characterize all bowhunters and with what you assume I see or don't see.  That buck would not be a 1.5 in 9H either stubby.  I have seen the deer you post.  They ain't giants!

[moog5050]

BTW Stubby, since you target 1.5s, I would love to see all the photos of these giant 1 year olds you have killed.  And I mean you, not the photos you borrow from others.  

[grampy]

On 4/6/2017 at 7:36 PM, moog5050 said:

Lots of talk about aging deer.  I think I am OK at it but this one had me second guessing. Mid rut and in an area where deer are generally small bodied as it's all browse. No reall ag close by. 

 

 

 

 

In almost 45 years of hunting in NY, and other places. I've honestly,  never seen a one and a half year old buck, that wide across the back and that deep in the chest, from top of back, to brisket. Also does not show the stubby, baby face of a one year old. Anyone who claims to see year old bucks like this, on a regular basis, is either sadly mistaken, half blind, inexperienced,  or full o crap! Not that there is not exceptional young bucks out there. But anyone who's been around the deer woods more than a time or two, can see the obvious. JMO.

[stubby68]

2 hours ago, moog5050 said:

You take the saying "Ignorance is bliss" to a new level.    King of assumptions, both with how you characterize all bowhunters and with what you assume I see or don't see.  That buck would not be a 1.5 in 9H either stubby.  I have seen the deer you post.  They ain't giants!

                  So there it is. This is all because I was the one that said what so many others think but do not say. Just like a bow hunter you can talk down about anyone but don't they dare say a bad thing about you. 

                    Who said anything about 9h?  I said my main hunting area also said that is in 9n. By the way you do realize that you got all jumpy about my post and it was not even you I quoted and said those things too right? DB hunter NY asked where I hunted I answered and told him I was sorry he did not see bucks like that and I did. I said because he said he would hunt where I do. That would suggest that he does not see those bucks where he does.

                       King of assumptions? You call me out on saying that bu c know could be 1.5 around me just because you do not see 1.5 that size where you hunt so you assume they do not exist. 

                        None of the pics I post are barrowed. I took those pics which makes them mine. I have also stated that not all the pics I post are of my own kills. I need not barrow anything from anyone. Where have I ever said I have taken giants or said any of the deer I posted pics of were giants. Some were nice bucks yes but far from giants. I have taken a few nice bucks but never claimed them to be giants. I have taken more small bucks then big and have no problem saying that nor showing pics which I have done. What good would it do me to post any more pics as you and others would just say they were fake or not mine anyways. You would just put your own spin on them as you guys do everything.

     You posted a pic of a deer and asked what we thought it's age was. If you didn't want an answer you didn't like then why not just say this is a 2.5 year old tell us we had to say 2.5 or not answer. Do not ask someone what they think if you are going to throw a fit when they tell you what they think. 

      Why are you so hard pressed to call me a lier when you have never hunted the woods I do nor had the deer killed on that land in your hands. By you thinking any one of us could say that buck you got last year was not yours. I never saw you get it I do not hunt where you do so I can not say I saw you shoot it. All I have is your word and a pic. I do believe you and have never said other wise yet my word and pics are no good. And you decide to say I said things I did not .like saying the pics were of giants.

      Get off your stick and string high horse and move on.

[wolc123]

Three things point to 2-1/2.  The body and the antlers give you good clues, but the shape of the his head makes it pretty certain.  A 3-1/2 would be longer and more "horseish" like the one on the left in this picture.  The shape of the skull of the 2-1/2 on the right is very similar to the buck in your picture.   You did good by waiting though, because he will have another 50 pounds or so of meat on him this fall, and that is what it is all about.  

[dbHunterNY]

           I hunt 9n  plenty of forage and lots of ag. We see very few spikes fork horns or anything smaller then 6 points.if we record 4 bucks smaller then a 6 in one year that's it. I'm not talking the whole unit just my little corner. But like I have said judging from a pic is just guessing. Look at the buck Chas posted the neck line meets the brisket a lot nicer then the other one also the nose as some shape to it not as narrow as the first buck. And I would call chases buck a 2.5.
             If there is no way that buck   is a 1.5 the most of the bucks born on and around me are born as 2.5 and we have no 1.5 year olds. Sorry if you do not see bucks like this but just because you don't does not mean I dont. Size  comes from more then just age. What they have to eat and where they live has a lot to do with it as well. A well fed animal will be bigger then a poorly fed one. Why is it so hard to believe that could be a 1.5? Is it just because he has more then 3 little points?

I don't think this is the thread to get into an aging debate. Either one of us could very well be wrong. Some things you look for and others will get you burned. Research aging on the hoof, pull jawbones, and send some in for CA analysis. Get as many puzzle pieces for bucks you encounter that you can. That buck could have 14 points or 4 and my answer would still be the same. I also dont much attention to pot bellies. Both my 2.5 yr old and myself get them after a big meal. Not completely sure what nose comment meant but "roman nose" doesnt happen until after skeletal maturity and that doesnt happen until at least 4.5. Im just telling you what I think ages are. Take it or leave it. It's just my opinion.

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[NYBowhunter]

5 hours ago, growalot said:

Are you talking body size or rack?

Im talking rack size, a deer  in my area with a rack like that would most definitely be a 3 1/2 year old but would sport a much larger body than that buck.  

[dbHunterNY]

I see a lot of antler talk for judging age. Antlers imo should be the very last thing you use to plant your feet on one side of the fence or another between two ages.

I also didn't mean to turn this into the roast of stubby. lol tough crowd lately in these forums.

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[wolc123]

I think the only way you could get that much antler on a 1-1/2 year old would be in captivity, and on a straight milk diet.  In that case, his body would resemble a water balloon in shape, and we are certainly not seeing that.  

[stubby68]

26 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

I don't think this is the thread to get into an aging debate. Either one of us could very well be wrong. Some things you look for and others will get you burned. Research aging on the hoof, pull jawbones, and send some in for CA analysis. Get as many puzzle pieces for bucks you encounter that you can. That buck could have 14 points or 4 and my answer would still be the same. I also dont much attention to pot bellies. Both my 2.5 yr old and myself get them after a big meal. Not completely sure what nose comment meant but "roman nose" doesnt happen until after skeletal maturity and that doesnt happen until at least 4.5. Im just telling you what I think ages are. Take it or leave it. It's just my opinion.

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And I agree that he is 2.5. And that is what was said in my first post. Then I said was if he was in my area he could be a 1.5.  That is when everything went nuts. If you guys do not think he could be 2.5 fine I'm good with that. But in till you hunt where I do then you can not say we do not have 1.5 year olds that size.

       I also agree antlers have little to do with age. However it seems that everyone thinks a buck can not be 1.5 and be more then a spike.

   No problems with the roast. He asked for our thoughts I gave mine. It is his problem he does not like it if some one does not think the way he does. He should have told us th we answer he was looking so we could all have just said yep you are right

[stubby68]

14 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

I think the only way you could get that much antler on a 1-1/2 year old would be in captivity, and on a straight milk diet.  In that case, his body would resemble a water balloon in shape, and we are certainly not seeing that.  

Yet another one who uses antler size to judge age. My God be with you my brother

[Buckmaster7600]

That's a tough one for sure, I'm saying 2 1/2 but a dandy 2 year old. I would say he would dress mid 140's. The problem is his head says 2 1/2 and his body leans towards 3. I would pass as well as my gut is saying 2 1/2.

Do you know the date the pics were taken?


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[wolc123]

6 hours ago, stubby68 said:

Yet another one who uses antler size to judge age. My God be with you my brother

Your God is with all of us Stubby.  It looks like I am the only one other than you who thinks a buck could grow that much antler in 1-1/2 years.  I do not believe there is anyplace on earth where it could happen in the wild however, so you are on your own there.  Maybe FSW will chime in and tell us he could do it in captivity, on a conventional diet, but I doubt that also.

I think that you could get enough protein into a buck in 1-1/2 years, on a straight milk diet, to grow antlers that big.  I know of of a famous general down in PA (also my favorite ex-president), who won numerous 1st place awards, back in the days of fat-cattle, by finishing his black-Angus steers that way.  Unfortunately, a heart-attack took him out, just like it did my grandad and most others who eat a lot of fatty beef like that.   That is why I like getting most of my family's protein from free-ranging whitetail bucks (the does are a little fatty for me but still better than any beef).       

[moog5050]

10 hours ago, stubby68 said:

                  So there it is. This is all because I was the one that said what so many others think but do not say. Just like a bow hunter you can talk down about anyone but don't they dare say a bad thing about you. 

                    Who said anything about 9h?  I said my main hunting area also said that is in 9n. By the way you do realize that you got all jumpy about my post and it was not even you I quoted and said those things too right? DB hunter NY asked where I hunted I answered and told him I was sorry he did not see bucks like that and I did. I said because he said he would hunt where I do. That would suggest that he does not see those bucks where he does.

                       King of assumptions? You call me out on saying that bu c know could be 1.5 around me just because you do not see 1.5 that size where you hunt so you assume they do not exist. 

                        None of the pics I post are barrowed. I took those pics which makes them mine. I have also stated that not all the pics I post are of my own kills. I need not barrow anything from anyone. Where have I ever said I have taken giants or said any of the deer I posted pics of were giants. Some were nice bucks yes but far from giants. I have taken a few nice bucks but never claimed them to be giants. I have taken more small bucks then big and have no problem saying that nor showing pics which I have done. What good would it do me to post any more pics as you and others would just say they were fake or not mine anyways. You would just put your own spin on them as you guys do everything.

     You posted a pic of a deer and asked what we thought it's age was. If you didn't want an answer you didn't like then why not just say this is a 2.5 year old tell us we had to say 2.5 or not answer. Do not ask someone what they think if you are going to throw a fit when they tell you what they think. 

      Why are you so hard pressed to call me a lier when you have never hunted the woods I do nor had the deer killed on that land in your hands. By you thinking any one of us could say that buck you got last year was not yours. I never saw you get it I do not hunt where you do so I can not say I saw you shoot it. All I have is your word and a pic. I do believe you and have never said other wise yet my word and pics are no good. And you decide to say I said things I did not .like saying the pics were of giants.

      Get off your stick and string high horse and move on.

To avoid this in the future Stubby, you can ASSUME, when I ask for the opinion of knowledgeable hunters on this site, I am not talking to you.  And your right, I didn't kill either of my bucks from last year.  They both died of heart attacks in front of my stand and I took photos with them.  Yep, that's really me in the photo.  Let's see these giant 1.5s Stubby.   I am calling you out.  Pony up some photos of 1.5s that size from 9n with you in the photo!   Simple enough  you claim they are there and you kill 1.5s   

 

Chirp. Chirp.  

[stubby68]

              Sorry to disappoint you but I nor anyone i hunt with has the need to brag that causes us to pose with any of our kills. I have never and will never disrespect any animal by standing over it pumping my fist for a photo. Why do you keep sayings giants? I never sad anything was a giant. The buck you asked for age on is no where near a giant either. In fact I have never seen one I would call a giant. That is in the woods or pics of trophies gotten around the country.  I see guy say a buck is a giant or monster when pics of nice bucks are posted here and other places and I just r on not see it. Sorry but no buck alive or in pictures has ever made me say we ow a giant. I have never been able to get excited over them the w as you others do. I guess that is because I see them as a source of food and nothing more.never been able to see them the way you guys do. Even on my first hunt not one bit of excitement. Just a job to do and that is put food on the table.

 

 

[grampy]

19 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

              Sorry to disappoint you but I nor anyone i hunt with has the need to brag that causes us to pose with any of our kills. I have never and will never disrespect any animal by standing over it pumping my fist for a photo. Why do you keep sayings giants? I never sad anything was a giant. The buck you asked for age on is no where near a giant either. In fact I have never seen one I would call a giant. That is in the woods or pics of trophies gotten around the country.  I see guy say a buck is a giant or monster when pics of nice bucks are posted here and other places and I just r on not see it. Sorry but no buck alive or in pictures has ever made me say we ow a giant. I have never been able to get excited over them the w as you others do. I guess that is because I see them as a source of food and nothing more.never been able to see them the way you guys do. Even on my first hunt not one bit of excitement. Just a job to do and that is put food on the table.

 

 

If you have no sense of pride or accomplishment with hunting, wouldn't it just be easier to just raise and slaughter beef? I realize that hunting is many things to many different hunters. I get that. But I've never met a hunter who felt nothing for the animal they hunted. Myself, I don't pose for pictures, and beat my chest for bragging or egotistical reasons. But to preserve a beautiful memory of a successful hunt, and to capture the beauty of an animal before its processed for my table. And that goes for ANY, animal I'm fortunate enough to kill. Size does NOT matter! I can pull out a picture from decades ago, and with one glance be taken back to that point in time, to remember every detail of the hunt.  So I can't imagine someone not having a picture to remember and preserve a hunt. Unless they have no memories to preserve. And in my mind, that's sad.

[moog5050]

49 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

              Sorry to disappoint you but I nor anyone i hunt with has the need to brag that causes us to pose with any of our kills. I have never and will never disrespect any animal by standing over it pumping my fist for a photo. Why do you keep sayings giants? I never sad anything was a giant. The buck you asked for age on is no where near a giant either. In fact I have never seen one I would call a giant. That is in the woods or pics of trophies gotten around the country.  I see guy say a buck is a giant or monster when pics of nice bucks are posted here and other places and I just r on not see it. Sorry but no buck alive or in pictures has ever made me say we ow a giant. I have never been able to get excited over them the w as you others do. I guess that is because I see them as a source of food and nothing more.never been able to see them the way you guys do. Even on my first hunt not one bit of excitement. Just a job to do and that is put food on the table.

 

 

You already established you take photos by those you posted trying to prove a point unsuccefully.   Including photos of capped deer ready to mount. Now it's disrespecting deer and you don't take photos.  Which is it Stubby? Get is straight. Lol.  Sorry stubby.  Your credibility is long gone in my eyes. 

 

And i I am done pointing out your inconsistencies.   Have a pleasant day. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by moog5050

[stubby68]

15 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

You already established you take photos by those you posted trying to prove a point unsuccefully.   Including photos of capped deer ready to mount. Now it's disrespecting deer and you don't take photos.  Which is it Stubby? Get is straight. Lol.  Sorry stubby.  Your credibility is long gone in my eyes. 

Where did I say I do not take photos? I said I do not pose in the pics. I feel it is disrespectful to pose over any kill I have made. The only point being made is that you ether can't or do not read. You have tried to say I said so many things that I never said it is ridiculous. Stop spinning what is said. Actually not spinning the words are being replaced with your own.

      Grampy  I never said I do not respect the animal. I just do not get excited like others do. I have pics of every animal I have killed. I can recall each hunt and kill when looking at those pics. The memories are there. I have never gotten excited over hunting. It is something I do and enjoy doing. My heart does no race I don't not start breathing hard. I see the animal and I just think you are dead. They provide food for me. That is it. I am in the woods more them most work in a year. I see these animals all the time when season comes around I kill them for food. That's it no excitement never have figured out why others get that way. To each there own. I do not begrudge some one getting excited. Actually when i see it i sometimes i could feel the way they do about it.The thing is that in my eyes there is nothing to get excited about. It is nothing to be sad about. Excitement just is not in me.

[wolc123]

57 minutes ago, grampy said:

If you have no sense of pride or accomplishment with hunting, wouldn't it just be easier to just raise and slaughter beef?

 

I can't speak for stubby, but I have been there and done that. That beef I helped raise contributed to my grandad's early death from heart-disease.   I hope venison allows me to spend a little more time with my own grandkids someday.  I am very thankful that my grandma sold the last of the cattle shortly after he died.  That is the main reason why I prefer killing bucks of any size over does, they have less fat on them.   The leaner meat is probably better for your heart.  I never felt right about killing the cattle.  It seemed like treachery, providing for them and feeding them every day, right up to "butchering time".   There is none of that with the deer, who know damn well that I am out there to kill them, almost right from the start.   I certainly do not hunt for sport, or to gather trophies, just food.   The more challenge and cost that I can remove from that process the better. 

I appreciate the trophy hunters, and those who pass on younger deer so that they can get a chance at a mature one. Those young bucks they pass might well be the ones that end up keeping my own family from needing to purchase unhealthy, store-bought, farm-raised meat.   

Pride is a sin, and I feel none of it by killing deer.   I do feel a sense of accomplishment however, mostly from providing healthy food for my family.  The pictures are nice to preserve the memories of that, as are the occasional shoulder or euro mounts. Even the smaller racks, screwed to a chunk of wood, with the carcass tag stapled to the back, go along way towards preserving those happy memories.  I have 5 carcass tags from last season tied on the freezer handle door right now, two of which will be stapled to their permanent location with the antlers, as soon as the meat is eaten.

If they ever did ban hunting deer in NY, I would probably raise grass-fed goats.   That meat might come close to the healthy "organic" quality that venison provides.  It sure would suck having to feed and water them over the winter and deal with vets, piss and crap.  You just don't know how bad those poor farmers have it compared to us hunters, until you have done both.   I am very thankful for the "meat hunters" paradise we have here in NY right now.   I definitely agree with stubby, that the antlers don't mean squat in comparison to the healthy and great-tasting meat.   The best thing they do for me, is to indicate which deer have less fat on them.          

Edited April 8, 2017 by wolc123

[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, stubby68 said:

              Sorry to disappoint you but I nor anyone i hunt with has the need to brag that causes us to pose with any of our kills. I have never and will never disrespect any animal by standing over it pumping my fist for a photo. Why do you keep sayings giants? I never sad anything was a giant. The buck you asked for age on is no where near a giant either. In fact I have never seen one I would call a giant. That is in the woods or pics of trophies gotten around the country.  I see guy say a buck is a giant or monster when pics of nice bucks are posted here and other places and I just r on not see it. Sorry but no buck alive or in pictures has ever made me say we ow a giant. I have never been able to get excited over them the w as you others do. I guess that is because I see them as a source of food and nothing more.never been able to see them the way you guys do. Even on my first hunt not one bit of excitement. Just a job to do and that is put food on the table.

I think he said "Giant" because if that deer was in fact 1.5, then it would be a giant 1.5 year old whitetail deer buck.  Hence, if you have deer like that in your area that are 1.5, then I agree that you have giants!  You must have something special going on where you hunt, that is for sure.  You can take the rack off that deer and I'm not seeing anything that resembles a 1.5 year old deer.  I can tell you that where I hunt in Ohio, Illinois and Kansas there aren't 1.5 year olds that look like that, so I have a tough time thinking that the traits are area sepcific, as you suggest, when looking at the body. 

Sure, nutritional benefits are evident in some areas more than others, but the deer still develop by age in similar ways.  Body shape through growth doesn't have to be measured on scale weight, it has more to do with the shape and changes that occur.  Heck I would suggest that if you just looked at the head alone (focusing one the antlers), that is a giant 1.5 - if it actually was 1.5.  I understand that you think the deer in the picture is 2.5 years old, BUT didn't you say you have 1.5 year old deer like this one where you hunt?

It appears that either Moog is saying that he'd love to see some of these giants (because they would be giants if you have 1.5s like this deer), or he doesn't believe that there can be many, if any, 1.5s that look like this deer.  Either way it doesn't matter which way he means it.  He's just saying that if a deer that size is 1.5, then it would be a giant for its age, and he'd like to see some examples of them.  I'd love to see more of them as well if you don't mind, plus know of any available land for sale close by to where you hunt!

You can hold onto your assessment that there are 1.5 year old deer around you like this one, for your argument sake if you'd like.  But it isn't providing valididty to the rest of your opinions if you can't come to the conclusion that the buck in this picture isn't a giant if it were actually 1.5.  Unfortunately you are instead, IMO, validating Moog's point regarding your ability/understanding of the age of bucks/deer.  What I don't understand is why you care about any of this anyways?  All you need to do, for your hunting needs, is to identify the species.  Is it a whitetail deer?  Once you have gotten to that part then you are good to go by your standards/methods/desires.  Go ahead and shoot.  Let Moog and others like him focus on how old a buck is...cause aging deer isn't neceessary for you anyways.