Wetlands on private property. What can you do?

[growalot]

I Have to say even if approved...you may be looking at an astronomical amount of money  siphoning putting in that septic system. Seriously check that out thoroughly..then there is the well drilling and quality. Lots of water doesn't equal quality drinking water...are you getting any sulfur type smells on your walks? Courious was are perk test ever done?

Edited April 8, 2017 by growalot

[Core]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

I Have to say even if approved...you may be looking at an astronomical amount of money  siphoning putting in that septic system. Seriously check that out thoroughly..then there is the well drilling and quality. Lots of water doesn't equal quality drinking water...are you getting any sulfur type smells on your walks? Courious was are perk test ever done?

It's got all city utilities except for septic. Perc test is scheduled for this week and deep hole the following at which point we'll know for sure what the septic situation will look like. Best case is a simple system ($8500) but realistically they are going to require some additional sand and I'm hoping it's not too outrageous. A site nearby had estimate of a $25k septic because it didn't perk at all (and it's been for sale forever and nobody will build on it).

I think it's probably going to perk okay because the house will be on currently-tilled land and its soil rating is B (hydropholics or something can't quite recall).

[growalot]

I assume you checked it's flood plain status. Assuming a mortgage here...That could be onet heck of a home owners bill.

Edited April 8, 2017 by growalot

[Core]

20 minutes ago, growalot said:

I assume you checked it's flood plain status. Assuming a mortgage here...That could be onet heck of a home owners bill.

I did personally. Land contract is contingent on me getting a mortgage. I have pre-approval but if the bank baulks I can bail on it, though I'd still be out the $6k that an engineer is already costing me. This is of course why 99% of people just buy ready-made houses in subdivisions. 

[growalot]

The land  purchase will be a private land contract?

[Core]

6 hours ago, growalot said:

The land  purchase will be a private land contract?

Yeah I'll own it as much as anybody "owns" land in new york, buying a bit of land from a farmer.

Does anybody know if a person can plant their own trees in wetlands or adjacent? If we can cut them down I assume so, but I wonder in what way rules apply to that?

[growalot]

I Believe if it is a large planting you need to get permission..plantation type planting..though I do not know what numbers they attach to that.

The only reason I asked was because of a guy in our area that made his living selling and foreclosing on land conracts he sold. We had one plae above us he sold 5 times in 7 years each time improvements were made. He would not deal with anyone that had a lawyer.. first late payment and he'd snatch it up....That said I'm sure you have a good lawyer...I bet Lawd. Knows the person I speak of fist name Jack. Last started with a B.

Edited April 8, 2017 by growalot

[Core]

On 4/8/2017 at 10:06 AM, growalot said:

I Have to say even if approved...you may be looking at an astronomical amount of money  siphoning putting in that septic system. Seriously check that out thoroughly..then there is the well drilling and quality. Lots of water doesn't equal quality drinking water...are you getting any sulfur type smells on your walks? Courious was are perk test ever done?

Well, when do you want to collect your prize?

We had planned on perc testing this week but the builder said I could get out and do it myself as well. Here is what I did today:

1) Chose the location I wanted the house and where the septic would be and dug a hole. I repeated this three more times in various spots, including places that were higher and further back from the road (further than I wanted).
2) Each hole was 24-26" deep
3) I brought some containers to pour water in the holes after digging them.
4) I did not use these containers. Upon getting to about 18" deep the clay like soil  (top 8" or so were nice looking dirt) went from typical damp soil to a mud status and water started coming in the hole.
5) I dug all the holes, took pictures, then came back 60-90 minutes later. All holes were filling with water. The first hole in just 90 minutes had 10" of water in it! Water line 14" from the top!!

Wth? This land is even on a bit of a hill. High water table or what?! It's been wet lately, but the top 1-1.5' were not water saturated, though after.

Will consult with builder but it looks like the landowner is about to get a cancelled contract unless I'm missing something here. I don't want a $25k septic system and two sump pumps running, with water pumps cranking while they build the foundation. It's a shame because the land is spectacular otherwise. It's so close to shops, schools, has a couple acres field I wanted and then the rest is just trees and deer tracks everyone and it's a beautiful lot if a house could actually be built on it.

[E J]

The water table is super high right now in my area (Wayne county). There is no way I would attempt a perc test to get an accurate guage of how wet things are after the rains we've had. Next week things would look a whole lot different.

[growalot]

Dear Lord..I don't take pleasure in being right if I was...I just had some hunches from what you said and experience...I wish you the best...None of what your going through is designed to be fun,for anyone..but when things click,and they will ,you'll get twice the  enjoyment out of it..I promise that.

[growalot]

EJ is so right...we live on the side of a steep hill and half our place looks like a swamp right now. I won't take the Gator out to do any work.

[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, Core said:

Well, when do you want to collect your prize?

We had planned on perc testing this week but the builder said I could get out and do it myself as well. Here is what I did today:

1) Chose the location I wanted the house and where the septic would be and dug a hole. I repeated this three more times in various spots, including places that were higher and further back from the road (further than I wanted).
2) Each hole was 24-26" deep
3) I brought some containers to pour water in the holes after digging them.
4) I did not use these containers. Upon getting to about 18" deep the clay like soil  (top 8" or so were nice looking dirt) went from typical damp soil to a mud status and water started coming in the hole.
5) I dug all the holes, took pictures, then came back 60-90 minutes later. All holes were filling with water. The first hole in just 90 minutes had 10" of water in it! Water line 14" from the top!!

Wth? This land is even on a bit of a hill. High water table or what?! It's been wet lately, but the top 1-1.5' were not water saturated, though after.

Will consult with builder but it looks like the landowner is about to get a cancelled contract unless I'm missing something here. I don't want a $25k septic system and two sump pumps running, with water pumps cranking while they build the foundation. It's a shame because the land is spectacular otherwise. It's so close to shops, schools, has a couple acres field I wanted and then the rest is just trees and deer tracks everyone and it's a beautiful lot if a house could actually be built on it.

As the last few have said, don't get down about that quite yet!  Wait a bit and a lot can change.  The water table is really high right now, and it is most springs in my area.  This spring is especially wet.

On average I can dig down and find slate rock on my property from 2-6 feet.  In the spring I can dig six inches and water pools almost immediately till May quite often.  If I wait till June I can dig down to the rock depth I mentioned above just about anywhere and it is dry as can be.

Whatever you do, don't skimp on whoever puts in your basement, if you will have one.  If they dig during a dry time they don't always realize how wet you can get at certain times of year.  My builder insisted he knew what he was doing and that with all the sand we have here (few hundred yards from Lake Ontario) he insisted using his basment system we would be dry as can be.  Spent my first winter with 8" of water in my "dry basement", and no useable sump hole.  Took a lot of effort and expense (all mine) to rectify that situation.

I say if you like the land, hang tight.  Most engineers are going to time perk tests to get the results you need, but they obviously need to be sensitve to septic situations.  Quite often a good raised bed will take care of that problem.  Maybe a few more bucks here and there, but I think it is worth it if you have the location you really want to live in.   

 

[Core]

Thanks, I have sent all my findings to the builder and we'll see what his thoughts are, too. 

I did go back to the holes now, and the water in the four holes was anywhere from 9-14" from grade to where the water was pooling in the hole. Isn't that absurdly high? If nothing else doesn't it indicate that if I put a house in, this time next year I'd have a septic system on top of a very high water table as well and maybe it backs up into the house? When I read the monroe county percolation test standard, it talks only about how fast water drains out the bottom of the hole not how fast they'll let it pour back in!

Could I really expect better results later in this week? We've spent so long on this and we're just on the cusp of spending thousands on an engineer to get it surveyed.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Core

[Larry]

Not know how many acres but if you have standing water it’s time to hunt ducks

[Core]

As a semi journal note for anybody interested, met today with builder @ site. The perc holes are now showing water 10" from the top. It turns out this is not water table issue but just the soil is totally soaked from the rain and needs more time to drain. Still, it shows it would require a significantly raised septic system. This is all on a small hill and if one extends out from the water level it's well above grade not far away, so not water table. We'd still do a deep hole test to see where the water table really is.

Unfortunately, my concern about the 500' check was valid and the DEC recommends, and the town is mandating, that the lines get redrawn on the wetlands. The engineer will then either keep as-is (unlikely), or shrink or expand them. If he shrinks them even a little bit, it would be great. If he expands them, hell that would be great too because it would make my decision easier.

There is also the unfortunate note that this crosses a stream under NY DEC protection and that would require a permit. Just to put a pipe in equal to one somebody else already put in and access to the land over the ditch from the main road. The engineer we spoke to thought this could potentially add three months to the approval process!

What a mess. My wife thinks I'm beating a dead horse on this. I would have bailed long, long ago but there is no other land attractive whatsoever in this area for what I want.

[Buckmaster7600]

Sounds like it's time to pull the plug, sounds like headache after headache and $$ over $$.


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[growalot]

Are you absolutely set on Monroe county? gosh what is it your not wanting to do travel to work? there are so many great properties out there and in lower tax bases .Is it schools?

[Core]

12 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Sounds like it's time to pull the plug, sounds like headache after headache and $$ over $$.


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Agreed. Plug = pulled last night.

After speaking with somebody at the DEC yesterday and an engineer, I'm done. Having to go through a multi-month approval with the DEC just to put a bridge over a stream is the last straw. The guy at the DEC said even the army corps of engineer would need to sign off. I honestly cannot believe the insane level of bureaucracy related to this. There is a land owner who is willing to sell me land, I am willing to buy it and put a house on it, but the state and various jurisdictions need multiple months to jerk around over it, and I'm literally not even doing a single thing that would impact any of their regulated property.

I'm now confident that not only would I not be able to break ground until the fall, but there's actually a chance I would be denied by the DEC anyway. At the price I'm paying for the land that is just not acceptable.

[Core]

12 hours ago, growalot said:

Are you absolutely set on Monroe county? gosh what is it your not wanting to do travel to work? there are so many great properties out there and in lower tax bases .Is it schools?

Yep, that is why. 

[52 farmer]

Our tax dollars hard at work protecting state employees jobs.Everything they do is in months and years for answers,more and more regulations put in place to protect their jobs. Good thing private enterprise doesn't operate as government does.Good luck, keep looking the right place will show up with much fewer headaches.

[Core]

4 hours ago, 52 farmer said:

Our tax dollars hard at work protecting state employees jobs.Everything they do is in months and years for answers,more and more regulations put in place to protect their jobs. Good thing private enterprise doesn't operate as government does.Good luck, keep looking the right place will show up with much fewer headaches.

It really is incredible. The engineer we spoke to when we asked how long it would take to get approval on the stream just paused for a while and basically said he has no idea. When pressed he said maybe 6 months. And this would be to simply put a culvert into the ditch equal in size to the current one and then pour in enough gravel/dirt to cross the ditch. It's pretty crazy.

The local town board is bad enough. they require a 4-6 week notification to the town board before any of their meetings that they hold each month, so if you miss a cutoff date you can literally wait 10 weeks (!) to present something to the planning board. And then they'll make sure they all get their little questions answered and placated, so it can take much longer. I've read through their meeting minutes and in one case a property owner wanted to put in a small commercial project and each month they went back with all of their questions answered and were presented with new ones. Almost Sisyphean but after a few months of this they finally got approval.

I totally get that gov needs to protect people from doing insane things, but the slowness of it is just terrible. Like why can't a property owner get everybody onto a meeting with a few days notice? Imagine telling your coworkers at your job you only take meeting requests a month out.

Anyway, I've dogged this thing longer than most. Decided to go ahead with this instead of buying a ready-made house because I didn't want to do what most people do. You can't get anything great without some work and tears, and I'm not a quitter, but I can finally step away from it, totally content with the knowledge I took it as far as I could (almost--stay tuned ;)).

*UPDATE* Oh well, that is done. I came up with an excellent idea to buy some more land away from the wetlands issue, my developer agreed it was good and he'd go in on acreage with me, but the seller doesn't want to sell more land, even though half of it is wetlands. He also didn't know that the stuff he was selling me wasn't even accessible without a DEC permit.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Core

[vin]

i bought property on long island many years ago. when i attempted to develop the property,i was told the dec would have to come out and flag it.  they flagged the property 100% part of the freshwater wetlands. even though the property is zoned residential, i pay residential taxes, I cannot build a home there. (i know i can get the taxes reduced), but that is not what i am looking to do. I want to build a home.the value of the property is now worth 80% less than what it should be worth. any help?

[GreeneHunter]

On 4/7/2017 at 8:10 PM, Core said:

If on your own property there are NYSDEC designated wetlands, what can you do with that property? Can you cut down any of the trees? Can you plant new trees? Can you tap the trees for sap?

In NY there is also an additional 100 ft buffer around all wetlands. I believe it's generally impossible to get permission to build any structure in this 100ft zone. What else can you or can't you do? Can you put fences in this area? Let livestock on it? Can you plant any sort of tree you want?

Still exploring a land purchase and found out some of it unfortunately consists of wetlands and the 100ft thing is badly crimping my style. NY DEC offices are closed now and I only found this out at COB. Thanks!!

Curious .... if the NYS DEC has declared some of your property wetlands I would think that would lower your taxes for that portion ?

[nyslowhand]

Not sure if it is state-wide, but in Wayne County the assessment was less for the portion of land that was designated as wetlands that I had owned.

[Doc]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 8:10 PM, Core said:

If on your own property there are NYSDEC designated wetlands, what can you do with that property?

They allow you to pay taxes on it.