DMP permitting = BS!!!!

[chas0218]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:13 PM, steve863 said:

What were they doing to the woods in the 70's and 80's that they aren't doing now?  When has there been a lot of logging in the Catskills?

The DEC has been reducing the amount of DMP's in the area for a number of years now.  The amount they give out gets lower every year.  I can't believe that the deer numbers haven't increased in this region no matter if the woods are overgrown or not.  I would think things should have started to move in the right direction as far as deer numbers without DMP's being issued.  Add to this the AR restrictions and the fact that fewer hunters in general our out hunting compared to the 70's and 80's, there should be more deer running around than ever before.

That makes sense if there is less browse. The less food the less deer so the less DMP. Honestly I'm not sure why DEC doesn't DEC selectively log state lands allowing for more browse or allow farmers to use it. The state land near me "Erwin State forest" had about 100 acres clear cut I mean gone except for tops. The loggers piled tops about 10' tall in piles some spots weren't piled just left  where they were cut off. I saw a ton of deer in there during bow but majority I jumped as I came around the edges of large tops. 

Anyway why wouldn't they do that to allow for more browse to support bigger herds. I mean they don't need to clear cut but at least thin.

[steve863]

15 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

That makes sense if there is less browse. The less food the less deer so the less DMP. Honestly I'm not sure why DEC doesn't DEC selectively log state lands allowing for more browse or allow farmers to use it. The state land near me "Erwin State forest" had about 100 acres clear cut I mean gone except for tops. The loggers piled tops about 10' tall in piles some spots weren't piled just left  where they were cut off. I saw a ton of deer in there during bow but majority I jumped as I came around the edges of large tops. 

Anyway why wouldn't they do that to allow for more browse to support bigger herds. I mean they don't need to clear cut but at least thin.

I hunted the same area for 20 plus years and can't say that I saw deer numbers go down.  The numbers pretty much remained the same throughout from what I observed.  I can of course speak for only the area I hunted, but I think part of the problem is that fewer hunters are hunting this area, thus fewer deer are being killed.  I think the DEC sees a lower deer take, and thinks its due to less deer, but I think the reality is that there are just way fewer hunters out there killing them.

 

 

[chas0218]

16 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I hear ya. Seems like there are similar and conflicting stories in about every WMU. Those two WMU's are pushing around 270,000 acres. Seems like all the units have habitat and densities that vary. I think it is time they redistrict them IMO

Last year I sat in on webinar about the WMU's and how they want to change the borders so they are lumped into less but larger WMU's to allow for more accurate counts of deer herds. Not sure how making the WMU's larger would allow for that but I am thinking if they did this then it would either allow more chances for DMP's or screw others that usually get DMP's. I know that if there is a lot of nuisance permits given out the amount of DMP's are unchanged allowing for deer herds to be darn near wiped out. For example in the Middlesex area there was a farm that killed around 100 whitetails on nuisance permits one year this was around 15 years ago. The guy I talked to said he stopped counting after a while and it wasn't all that fun. He said he would shoot one and the rest would just stand there he would shoot another and so on. They donated what they were supposed to the rest got stacked in the hedgerows. The deer herd 6 years later was decimated we barely saw deer and my father-in-law was contemplating selling the property. Now about 10 years later he has shot some serious monsters with the doe ratio is close to 1:1 or even more bucks to doe.

I'm not saying the nuisance permits was the key to 1:1 and I highly despise nuisance permits because of the amount of deer they don't need to report after killing. There is no way that DEC has any idea of how many deer are out there based on DMP's and their fudge factor numbers.

Edited September 15, 2017 by chas0218

[Padre86]

22 hours ago, G-Man said:

There are pieces of stateland that are small 50acres or so and they are empty.. As well as many larger area that are empty.. I can go by 5000 acres of state land and see 3 or 4 cars or trucks.. Just advoid the parcels closest to metropolitan areas.. 30 min extra drive and your alone except for maybe a group of locals ...

Where are these 5,000 acres of empty state land parcels that you are referring to?  I've driven by or been into many of the state and federal land areas in my area during the regular season....most of them aren't empty.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Padre86

[Culvercreek hunt club]

13 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

. I know that if there is a lot of nuisance permits given out the amount of DMP's are unchanged allowing for deer herds to be darn near wiped out. 

 

I can see what you are saying in the comment whole comment but this part isn't correct. Those nuisance numbers are factored in.  right or wrong, good or bad, accurate or fudged, they factor them in. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

7 minutes ago, Padre86 said:

Where are these 5,000 acres of empty state land parcels that you are referring to?  I've driven by or been into many of the state and federal land areas in my area during hunting season....most of them aren't empty.

where are you? I can tell you that very large areas in Region 7 get little to no pressure after Thanksgiving.  I boarder at least one 2,500 acre one and there are many more in the area. We head over when hunting is slow to do a few drives and never see anyone late season. I would bet a weekday hunt would be very lonesome. 

[chas0218]

4 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

where are you? I can tell you that very large areas in Region 7 get little to no pressure after Thanksgiving.  I boarder at least one 2,500 acre one and there are many more in the area. We head over when hunting is slow to do a few drives and never see anyone late season. I would bet a weekday hunt would be very lonesome. 

I don't have 5000 acres of state land as a whole near me but lots of 500+ acres with next to no pressure. I have seen 5 or 6 vehicles at a 1000 acre section and on one 300 acre section I have seen 1 or 2 vehicles. I have no idea how many people that border state property hunt it but still can't be a whole lot.

[Padre86]

21 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

where are you? I can tell you that very large areas in Region 7 get little to no pressure after Thanksgiving.  I boarder at least one 2,500 acre one and there are many more in the area. We head over when hunting is slow to do a few drives and never see anyone late season. I would bet a weekday hunt would be very lonesome. 

I'm out of Rochester and mostly hunt the state and federal land in and around the Finger Lakes (when I'm not up in the ADK's).  I haven't tried any areas in Region 7 yet because it is a bit out the way for me.

 

The hunting slows down after the first week where I'm at too, but the deer also become less active during the day and drives are really the only way to get them.  Not complaining, just pointing out that there really are no easy pickings on state land in western NY.  

 

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Padre86

[Grizz1219]

17 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I hear ya. Seems like there are similar and conflicting stories in about every WMU. Those two WMU's are pushing around 270,000 acres. Seems like all the units have habitat and densities that vary. I think it is time they redistrict them IMO

Just think they broad stroke things to much at times... Send out more surveys if they don't want to put boots on the ground... For me, I try not to shoot young bucks... but when the oldest buck you are seeing is 2.5 years old and they are VERY elusive... it is tough to have hope of seeing him... I fill the doe tags I am given... Use my rifle tag during BP to shoot another doe.. but without extra DMP tags I highly doubt the 2 or 3 does I am taking make much of a difference... 

[Buckmaster7600]

Where are these 5,000 acres of empty state land parcels that you are referring to?  I've driven by or been into many of the state and federal land areas in my area during the regular season....most of them aren't empty.

5h and 5f


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[chas0218]

57 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I can see what you are saying in the comment whole comment but this part isn't correct. Those nuisance numbers are factored in.  right or wrong, good or bad, accurate or fudged, they factor them in. 

How do they factor them in if they aren't all reported? I mean no different than not reporting DMP's but nuisance permits allow for harvesting of a lot more animals and if they aren't all reported then it could make a huge difference in herd numbers.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

59 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

How do they factor them in if they aren't all reported? I mean no different than not reporting DMP's but nuisance permits allow for harvesting of a lot more animals and if they aren't all reported then it could make a huge difference in herd numbers.

And you just hit on the largest point of controversy in the system. how do they really now and how good are their assumptions. That is why I said it like I did. "It is included"  but is it included correctly. I have no freaking idea. 

[chas0218]

8 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

And you just hit on the largest point of controversy in the system. how do they really now and how good are their assumptions. That is why I said it like I did. "It is included"  but is it included correctly. I have no freaking idea. 

As much as it cost DEC they should just make them mail in again. It was simple fill it out put it in the mail Done you already filled it out the tag to transport so you wouldn't be wasting more time. Now you either have to call or go online both of which take longer and more patience waiting for crap to load or not work at all. I feel like there were a lot more people reporting when that was the case. 

The new way is more stream line but has its disadvantages. Honestly maybe we should all get one doe tag once you fill it you get another and so on until you're tagged out. Would help with poaching and keep most everyone honest. Not an EAB program.

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, Padre86 said:

I'm out of Rochester and mostly hunt the state and federal land in and around the Finger Lakes (when I'm not up in the ADK's).  I haven't tried any areas in Region 7 yet because it is a bit out the way for me.

 

The hunting slows down after the first week where I'm at too, but the deer also become less active during the day and drives are really the only way to get them.  Not complaining, just pointing out that there really are no easy pickings on state land in western NY.  

 

 

The state land in our area is almost always empty after thanksgiving, and we are only 35 or so mins from Rochester. I know of a few others that don't get much pressure after thanksgiving that are within 20 mins of me. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

As much as it cost DEC they should just make them mail in again. It was simple fill it out put it in the mail Done you already filled it out the tag to transport so you wouldn't be wasting more time. Now you either have to call or go online both of which take longer and more patience waiting for crap to load or not work at all. I feel like there were a lot more people reporting when that was the case. 
The new way is more stream line but has its disadvantages. Honestly maybe we should all get one doe tag once you fill it you get another and so on until you're tagged out. Would help with poaching and keep most everyone honest. Not an EAB program.

Adie tag even in areas that don't get any? How would you control take in specific areas!

[jjb4900]

3 hours ago, chas0218 said:

How do they factor them in if they aren't all reported? I mean no different than not reporting DMP's but nuisance permits allow for harvesting of a lot more animals and if they aren't all reported then it could make a huge difference in herd numbers.

I've been on a few places that had nuisance tags and from what I remember, they were monitored and I believe the unused tags had to be turned in and/or accounted for and the used ones had to be called in after killing a deer.......most of the landowners were pretty strict about that because it played into what they got the following year. It's been a while, so may be wrong, but that's what I recall.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

7 minutes ago, jjb4900 said:

I've been on a few places that had nuisance tags and from what I remember, they were monitored and I believe the unused tags had to be turned in and/or accounted for and the used ones had to be called in after killing a deer.......most of the landowners were pretty strict about that because it played into what they got the following year. It's been a while, so may be wrong, but that's what I recall.

you are correct. I will say that is not uncommon that follow up to a shot is less than enthusiastic. meaning several can be shot on one permit until it is filled out and then called in. 

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Adie tag even in areas that don't get any? How would you control take in specific areas!

Possibly if they take the either sex tag out of the equation and make it antler only then allow for a lottery of doe tags in those areas that have PP or no doe. At least there would be some glimmer of hope for a doe tag. The wild card either sex tag is a horrible way of managing deer herds.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

21 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Possibly if they take the either sex tag out of the equation and make it antler only then allow for a lottery of doe tags in those areas that have PP or no doe. At least there would be some glimmer of hope for a doe tag. The wild card either sex tag is a horrible way of managing deer herds.

I like the "all anterless by lottery". Then everyone has the same shot. 

[chas0218]

6 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I like the "all anterless by lottery". Then everyone has the same shot. 

It is the only way to actually manage the amount of doe being taken legally. There will always be people that poach deer but this way they would allow equal chances to residents first and actually control the population as they see fit.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

22 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

It is the only way to actually manage the amount of doe being taken legally. There will always be people that poach deer but this way they would allow equal chances to residents first and actually control the population as they see fit.

I'd LOVE to see them implement mandatory reporting as well but I guess that would be too much to hope for. 

[Chef]

I saw a lot of posts here on the catkskills and I feel I have to weigh in. I hunt the extreme southern catkskills in between rt 17 and the river. It is very hard to get a dmp I now have 3pp and should get one next year@jmp5008 got one this year. I will say this there are plenty of deer I have seen does running around in groups of 12 or more and have at least 7 different bucks on cam on my 25 acer property. Now I bow hunt and buy my ml tag so that is two for easy I can take without the dmp. So to those who only gun hunt and complain they can't shoot anything go out buy a bow a x bow a ml and get in the games


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[eagle rider]

and I have no doubt that many of these new regulations have helped prematurely age people out of hunting.........the hunters who were barely able to get into the woods to hunt, but did it anyway with the hopes of getting a doe or any buck, are now saying screw it and totally giving up....

We have lost new club members due to this as well.



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[eagle rider]

I own land in 5T and as a landowner and a disabled vet I still have 0 chance of getting a dmp. You can drive around the block and see 50 deer and 45 are does but zero dmp's. Having spoke to a buck of neighbors they are all getting permits for the neiboring wmu and using that tag. It's sad the second is making outlaws out of honest people but it is beyond ridiculous!


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Im sure stuff like that is happening in a lot of DMU's especially if folks need the meat to live on.


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[eagle rider]

I hear this constantly.  I fully believe NYS doesn't care about hunters or if people stop hunting.  It's a Anti gun anti hunting state.  The more people the state can get to stop hunting the more they hope they get rid of there guns.  
 
I hunt 4u.  Most of the land is owned by  Citi it's that are anti hunters.  Yet they bitch that there plants got mowed down by deer during the winter and something has to be done.  Anything except killing Bambi that is.  
Drive the back roads and you'll see a boat load of does, yet 0% chance of doe tags.  

Exactly. Although we are not invaded by the citidiots in 4W (too far from the outlets i suppose) all we see are doe!


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