Preserving the tradition?

[wooly]

Just thinking out loud here so nobody needs to take personal offence to any of this yammer.

Post after post, I see guys mentioning hunter numbers on the decline, and the need to get women, children, and newbies involved in the sport.... like hunters are going to become extinct some day soon if we don't pass it on. Is this just a safety in numbers reaction to a species that feels threatened by a predator higher up on the food chain in that of the anti's?

Do you guys really believe they have that much power to wipe us out? I don't and wont...I believe you're born into a hunter or you're not, and will continue to fight to stay that way no matter what anyone says....

On the other hand, I see another post after post about all the yahoos out there sharing the same woods as us who don't belong, or do it for all the wrong reasons.

With all the bad ethics, poor markmanship,difference of opinions, disrespect for nature and the environment, and the blaitant failure to understand and follow strict game laws....are we trying to build a bigger Frankenstein? It seems to me that the odds are in favor this is exactly what we're accomplishing with new recruitment. ???

With all the controversy surrounding so many of todays hunting "success stories" and all the battling within the hunting community about what implements are worthy at any particular time....is it not terribly obvious our pack mentality may be resulting in too many alpha dogs barking out orders and the rest of the pack is revolting?

In a previous thread there was discussion of who should be titled the official spokeperson for outdoorsman to pass along our collected stances and views of hunting. As entertainning as it was, and all the sugestions that were thrown out there....we've now put all our personal faith behind our proposed leader to speak for us as a whole. I don't need to tell any of you, that's never gonna work, right?

So...where do you guys stand on this? Do we weed out the nastys and hope their replacement hasn't already begun following in the footsteps of one....or do we just cross our fingers and hope that the next new inductee is a small step towards some sort of end game none of us know the outcome to yet?

Apparently, we fear even picking the bad apples from the bushell wont save the bunch but it's a start....but who's to say that bringing new virgin apples aint gonna add more worms to the mix.

Like I said, just thinking out loud here, but would like to hear your feedback.....as long as it stays on topic of course. :

[steve863]

Good post!  I also believe that you either are a hunter or you're not.  My kids are not old enough yet, and I do want to expose them to hunting, but I certainly will never push it on them.  One will most likely show interest in it even before they ever set foot out in the field.  I know that is how it was for me.  While others won't give a hoot about it no matter what you do or how many times you take them out.  I know you mentioned in another thread that people should take kids out hiking and to enjoy nature well before they ever take them hunting.  This I agree with very much also.  I kind of think hunting alone might be the least effective way to get kids interested in the outdoors.  It  can actually be very boring for many youngsters to just sit around and wait for an animal to show up, while hiking some good nature trails can tune their senses and keep them interested way quicker than those cold and boring hours on the stand can.  I think preserving the tradition generally takes way more than just taking someone hunting and calling someone a hunter.

[wooly]

Excellently said Steve.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

[G-Man]

Well at least the state has lowered the age for gun, and a bill is out there for bow. No matter what you have to have the chance to introduce kids young, a bb gun can do wonders!. unfortunatly neighborhoods have changed and its no longer possible for a kid jut to walk out the backdoor and start plinking! I can't say i see a turn around in the future as long as parents do not have time or access to land to get kids out there!! I grew up with the advantage of a family farm down the street where the great outdoors was ours to explore!! now that farm is postage stamp lots with fences between every yard....hard to explore past 60' wide and 120' deep.... Not that all kids will want to hunt..My younger brother never had an interest untill last year when a buisness trip took him to africa and he was invited on a safari, the guide was impressed with his ability to shoot (guess that bb gun paid off) and he was able to get a blue wildabeast! My father would be laughing his heart out thinking his "non hunting" son wouldn't shoot a deer but went hunting in africa at 38 years old!! I have no doubts that unless you own or have access to private land hunting will become a much reduced activity in nys...

[Pygmy]

Weed out the nastys....??..

People are people..There will always be a few bad apples... I am not suggesting that we tolerate unethical behavior, but I don't feel  as negative as many others on this forum seem to about general  poor behavior among hunters...

To the contrary...I think that overall, hunter ethics have improved a lot in my lifetime...

When I first started hunting, many of the hunters that I learned from had endured the Great Depression.... There was much more a of an "anti establishment"  attitude regarding seasons, bag limits, and game laws in general... There was a lot of "get everything you can whenever you can get it"  thinking out there..

I think that in general hunters have become much more ethical and law abiding over the last 40 years and I am optimistic about the future of our sport...

[First-light]

Pushing your ways upon a child doesn't work. My kids (2 girls) know I hunt. They love eating venison. They ask me a ton of questions about hunting and the animal I harvest. I have a true love for the Whitetail deer and that was from my days as a kid. My Father was not an outdoorsman nor a fisherman but my brother and I were given every opportunity to get involved in the sports. I brought my kids out squirrel hunting this year and will do the same next. My oldest shoots a bow. If the age does drop to 12 I will give her the option to get her license. At that point she will experience the hunt and like it or not. The most important thing to do with a child is let them experience all that one can get from the outdoors. We have planted over 400 Spruce on my property, my girls helped. We mowed trails, put in food plots, go deer and bird watching. Bears are common place on my property, they read books about the bears and how they interact with humans. They are learning about our outdoors and how to take care of it. Hunting is just a small part of the whole scene but it takes place in a very special setting, our outdoor world. We need to preserve the environment  and all else will fall into place, hunting included. We have to remember years ago families were big, my folks had six kids. Today two is the norm so there will be a % decline. If I look at the guys on my road that hunt, there is almost a generational skip happening. Not too many teens hunting right now but there are a few youngsters around the corner that may take up the slack!

[arrowflinger]

I think that in general hunters have become much more ethical and law abiding over the last 40 years and I am optimistic about the future of our sport...

Except for the road hunters out in Tuscarora.

I'd like to believe that most hunters are ethical and law abiding.  You will always have some bad apples, as you say.

[wooly]

Except for the road hunters out in Tuscarora.

I'd like to believe that most hunters are ethical and law abiding.  You will always have some bad apples, as you say.

This is how threads spiral off topic. The original post was about the title. Read it again...and then reply.

I aint pickin' at ya arrow, just be nice to read a thread that stays on topic for once.

[nyantler]

I think the answer to the question is for everyone to just shut up and hunt... if you see something happening that you think is illegal call the DEC . then go back to hunting... if you don't like the people that hunt on the land with you.. hunt somewhere else... stop complaining about what other hunters are doing and just hunt! You'll have a far better experience.

[wooly]

I think the answer to the question is for everyone to just shut up and hunt... if you see something happening that you think is illegal call the DEC . then go back to hunting... if you don't like the people that hunt on the land with you.. hunt somewhere else... stop complaining about what other hunters are doing and just hunt! You'll have a far better experience.

So what you're saying is you could give a rats ass about traditions, correct?...just do your thing. I can appreciate that.

[G-Man]

I think the traditions have changed like the start of gun season from mon to sat, The passing down of out sport has become harder as land use and access has changed as well as public opinion. Does it mean it will dissapear? I hope not..Will it decrease most definately as families become smaller and more single parent familys arise(tough to have time to take kids out to enjoy and learn about the great outdoors when all you have time to do is work to surport the family) the problem is a lot of kids are introduced to the sport of hunting via television shows which show huge deer/turkey/game in general being taken, they might decide to try hunting but are soon discouraged because they haven't seen the huge game that tv makes seem around every corner! I can't imagine a kid with non-hunting parent(s) joining our ranks as there is limited information and instruction available at a local level,all they have is the tv or video games. So maybe when they are older and have access to hunt...but by then they will be involved in golf ,sports, or anything else but hunting..  One question how many hunters have taken a child out hunting/hiking/fishing that they were not related to,or friend of their parent???

[steve863]

I think I read somewhere recently that participation by the young in ANY outdoor activity is on the decline, so I don't think hunting is the only activity being affected.  I think everyone needs to face the fact that hunting will never become any more popular than it is today and most likely decline in popularity for various reasons that have been mentioned before.  Honestly with all the jealousy, greed, paranoia, and other nonsense that typically revolves around hunting(many examples on this forum), a kid would probably do better choosing some other outdoor activity over hunting.  Plus, he will probably become more physically fit participating in something else.  I have seen enough out of shape hunters in comparison to hikers, bikers, skiers, etc. to know that this is definitely true!

[nyantler]

I think the answer to the question is for everyone to just shut up and hunt... if you see something happening that you think is illegal call the DEC . then go back to hunting... if you don't like the people that hunt on the land with you.. hunt somewhere else... stop complaining about what other hunters are doing and just hunt! You'll have a far better experience.

So what you're saying is you could give a rats ass about traditions, correct?...just do your thing. I can appreciate that.

No.. I care a lot about my own traditions and my families traditions... and it's great that you care about yours.. i just don't really care about yours.. nothing personal.. it just is none of my business. I dont see much of the problems guys speak of while I'm hunting.. I'm way to busy hunting... I realize that they do exist for some but they don't for me... I just try to stay well away from and not pay attention to what others are doing while I'm hunting... again, I am too busy hunting to care.

[Elmo]

Hunting (and fishing) are sports that are built on tradition passed down from a father to a son.  For someone to get into the sport on their own without being bought in by someone else is extremely hard.  This I can tell you from experience since I am learn the sports on my own while coming from a family and community where no one else fishes or hunts.  Here are the factors going against others from coming into the sport.

1. lack of educational resources:

This maybe just me but I am a hands on kind of guy.  You take me to a place once and I can find my way back there on my first try.  But describe something to me and I'm confused.

There aren't that many hands on in the field hunting courses so you have to learn based on what you can read off books and forums such as these.  As great as they are, they will never replace hands on in the field tutorial from an experienced hunter or angler.  Like, bass are common on flats.  What's a flat?  I've never seen a flat before.  Maybe I have and never knew it was called a flat?  Flat is described as a large area of relatively shallow water with even depth through out.  Okay?  What's shallow to you might be deep for me.  How shallow is shallow?  If someone simply dragged my butt out there and said "See there...that's a flat."  Easy as that!

So many times I'm sitting out in the woods early in the morning and it is cold as hell out there and after nothing is happening.  I can see a lot of people getting discouraged.  I kept on wondering what I was doing wrong.  You don't know how helpful it would be to have someone with you to simply point out that I was going there at the wrong time of the day or even encourage me by saying I am actually doing everything right but sometimes you don't see anything.  But then you hear others talked about how they came back with a bag full and you again start to doubt yourself.  Or worst, you start to wonder if you're being mislead (see point 4) and you're back to being feeling alone out there.

2. trust:

So if you don't have friends or family members who can show you how to hunt then you have to either do it on your own or with a complete stranger.  Wait.  You want me to go into the middle of the woods...where there is no one around and help is miles away...with a complete stranger following behind me...and he's carrying a loaded gun?

From the otherside.  You want me to take this bumbling idiot into the woods..where there is no one around and help is miles away...and I don't know if he really does practice proper safety habits...and he's carrying a loaded gun?

3. money:

Guns are not cheap.  Ammo is not cheap.  Gear is not cheap.  The first time I wanted to give hunting a shot was when I was in going to college in Michigan but I simply didn't have the money for it.  Was I going to go tell my dad "Hey, I know you're working 7 days a week just so that I can finish college but can I have an extra $500 to see if I like hunting or not?"  Go back to point number 1.  I spent over $100 on 3 different forend stocks for my Mossberg 500 and not a single one fits.  I posted the question here and no one knew what was wrong.  I asked the gun dealer I bought it from and he didn't know either.  Then I stumbled on a weird looking object called a short action conversion nut.  Turns out retail Mossbergs come in short action and tactical forends come in long action.  If you have a question about your iPod, google it up and you get twenty million results.  Have a question about gun or hunting and you would need to track down that old sage who is way off the map.  Bottom line is to have a decent amount of cash for not just your gear but also to pay for your mistakes.  Unless someone is willing to lend you their stuff to try out, I don't see a lot of people willing to shell out that kind of cash only to see if they would like the sport.

4. competition:

Hunting and fishing is the one sport where the more people participate, the less chance you have to play.  Not many people are willing to give up their honey spot so they'll sway you towards spots that has a lesser success rate.  Now I'm only guessing but I don't see to many people go into the woods by themselves, not see a single living thing, and come out saying they were so excited about hunting.  I mean if you enjoy being in the woods then you can go hiking.  It's cheaper.  Turn that around.  See the same guy come out of the woods having harvest his first deer and see how excited he would be?

[Elmo]

On those annoying hunters out there...

On my third (maybe 4th) time out, I had just bought a new gun and wanted to try it out.  I went deep into the woods and saw a slight orange in the distance.  Must be another hunter.  I did noticed another car parked off the road when I came in.  Well, I didn't want to disturb him so I'll just hike a few hundred yards in another direction to try out my new gun.  I setup a target and shot off maybe 10-12 rounds and I was sighting in my scope.  When I was done, I hiked towards my car I noticed that hunter was gone.  Hmm...oh well.  As I got to my car, I also noticed that the other car drove off already.  When I got in my car it just hit me.  My sighting in scared off every animal within miles.  That other hunter must have been pissed off.  Heck I would have kicked my own ass.  I'm surprised he didn't slash my tires or something.  Now I know.  If you were that guy and you're reading this...I'm sorry.  I just didn't know any better.  But I've learned.  Sometimes those "rude" city slickers who ruin everything and not trying to ruin everything.  They're simply trying to learn how to do things right it just that no one is there to point it out for them.

[First-light]

On those annoying hunters out there...

On my third (maybe 4th) time out, I had just bought a new gun and wanted to try it out.  I went deep into the woods and saw a slight orange in the distance.  Must be another hunter.  I did noticed another car parked off the road when I came in.  Well, I didn't want to disturb him so I'll just hike a few hundred yards in another direction to try out my new gun.  I setup a target and shot off maybe 10-12 rounds and I was sighting in my scope.  When I was done, I hiked towards my car I noticed that hunter was gone.  Hmm...oh well.  As I got to my car, I also noticed that the other car drove off already.  When I got in my car it just hit me.  My sighting in scared off every animal within miles.  That other hunter must have been pissed off.  Heck I would have kicked my own ass.  I'm surprised he didn't slash my tires or something.  Now I know.  If you were that guy and you're reading this...I'm sorry.  I just didn't know any better.  But I've learned.  Sometimes those "rude" city slickers who ruin everything and not trying to ruin everything.  They're simply trying to learn how to do things right it just that no one is there to point it out for them.

We all learn from our mistakes. Hunting is not easy and you need a lot of dedication, discipline and patience to be rewarded by your efforts. I was lucky to have a bunch of guys to learn from.

I could see how it my be a problem going it on your own. Good luck.

[Pygmy]

Obviously I am not a deep enough thinker to participate in this discussion...

I guess I'll just keep enjoying my time in the outdoors and try to be a positive influence on the younger hunters that I happen to come in contact with... ...

I think it's time for my NAP... : ....

[hunter49]

First on the anti's, if you go to "ussportsmenalliance.com" on their home page  they have a running talley of the monies they have collected its well over 100 million $$. they are out to get us in my opinion. I also belive Toruk-Makto hit the nail on the head. To get a person into hunting it takes a lot of money now days, guns ,ammo, camo clothes, etc. I also agree that if a kid sits for hours & doesn't see any game they get bored big time.  When I started hunting we had phesants and rabbits  and lots of action which made it fun we didn't have time to get bored. I also think that kids would rather sit on the computers all day than go outside & what would they ever do if they had to gut & drag a deer out of the woods!  And they did lower the archery age to 12 yrs.old. or at least it passed the state senate.

[bubba]

The main reason I got into teaching the hunter Ed classes was to do my part to help make sure the tradition of hunting is carried on.  Do I think there is enough opposition to get hunting totally stopped if our numbers decline? NO I do not. If we do not keep our numbers up, those of us who continue to hunt will be paying much more money for the privelege, as the state will want the same amount of money coming in.  I believe it will become more difficult in the future to carry out our tradition, without conforming to a lot of changes.  I also reach out for the people who want to hunt, but have not had the opportunity to learn at home.  I see more of this with single mother homes.  The mother and child or two taking the class together. She is doing all she can to help the child or children carry out what they want to do, when most times she has no real interest.  I have taken quite a few of them out hunting after, so they could get off to a good start, and some of the mothers have really enjoyed themselves.  I feel we all need to do our part to keep the tradition going regardless of what the tradition means to you.

[wooly]

You guys have impressed me sticking to topic and keeping civil. It's been a pleasure to read ALLyour input.

Not a thing here I care to disagree with. Even if I had something I'd never have brought it up.

My point being, we make trade offs welcoming any and all into a sport we're all very passionate about. I do believe we do need to get the youth involved as most others do here. My only concern with the new proposed law was quite cliche....why fix what's not broke....but I'm good with how things are panning out.

The point was brought up by a few guys here about the costs involved with getting started in hunting which I can relate to on a personal level, and through experiences I 've had with newbies and youngins. It's not cheap, but for an already established hunter to do within his/her means to provide an "experience" to ANYONE young or old, who may never have the oppertunity to do so otherwise due to their own limitations is what it's all about.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying you need to completely dress up and outfit any greenhorns financially to get them started on the right track. Alls I'm saying is the passion is contagious. Sometimes it's just a matter of telling that big buck story to a newb, or describing a place you've been to that few have never seen, or sharing that close encounter with any critter that really got your heart pumping. That stupid little twinkle in our eyes that we all get when we tell these stories is all it takes sometimes to make someone think this may be a road they want to go down. To me, that's the way traditions are passed on.

Grandma always used her secret recipes to make the most delicious cookies anyone who ate would die for to get ahold of.

My mother on the other hand, was never quite as crafty around the kitchen when it came to baking, but she did her best to re-create grams recipe with a little bit of tweaking one ingredient here, and a little bit of substituting another there. Once that stovetop timer rang and ma pulled the cookies from the oven, she had actually put out a product rather comparable to grams, if not better.

See what I'm getting at here?

We're all friggin different. Whether it's in our upbringing, our financial status, family involvement in our interests, or the way we pass information from one generation to the next. It's not always the right way to do things, but there will come a time that traditions take hold and all that information anyone coming into the sport will need is a little tweaking here and there from the info they've already gathered to become a respectable hunter in their own eyes and maybe have something to pass along to others as I mentioned.

There's a lot of guys here that I can really relate to and that's why I keep coming back. One opinion doesn't make anyone a bad guy in my book. Forced opinions are a turn off, and just like grams age old recipe, there's always a substitute or another ingredient thrown into the mix that makes it better for someone else.

To me, that's how you pass on traditions....although my grandmother might be rolling in her grave right now if she can read this and see what's become of her cookies.

[greybeard]

to nyantler..  I agree.That is and has always been my policy...

[nyantler]

Thank you Greybeard... I absolutely care about tradition and have been carrying on many of my families over the years.. but I'm sure a lot of others traditions are much different than mine... and none of my business to be worrying about.

[First-light]

At some point traditions will die. I have two girls, I try my best to teach them and get them involved. If they don't take up the sport I hope they retain enough of what I taught them to pass it along to their kids. In my camp we have only one 80 year old left from the old timers. Traditions he had at Indian lake died years ago-I hope he can make my camp this year, I'll be waiting to drive him up and listen to 6 hours of the old days at Indian lake. Stories I have heard a million times but I listen like it was my first.......

Wooly- loved the Grandma stuff- that was good.

[Pat Rockets]

No one in my immediate family hunted so im a self taught hunter..no traditions but with these 3 young boys i have 6 2 and 2 mos..im sure somthing will materialize..

[First-light]

3 boys eh, you are going to have a ball! At some point their going to bust yours!