Scope Upgrade

[SilverPharmer]

Tagged out the second day with a nice 5 pointer for my 1st xbow season.  Although I may hunt all season with my xbow I'm looking at upgrading the scope for next year.  Looked through an Excalibur Tact-Zone  (2.5-6x32mm) at Bass Pro and loved the marked and lighted reticles and looking to go this route for next season.  Anyone out there done the same or highly impressed with another brand?

Thanks 

[wildcat junkie]

I can see my duplex reticle LONG after legal shooting hours have passed. Invest in good glass and steer clear of all the gimmicks.

 

I just upgraded to a Leupold VX3i 3.5-10 x 40 with standard duplex reticle. I let you know by the end of the week when I get it mounted and head to the range. It's replacing a Kahles 3-9x42 so it has a very tough act to follow. 

[SilverPharmer]

 That would be great, looking forward to hearing from you

[SilverPharmer]

By the way I see you might be a north country boy as well? Grew up in Lisbon in St. Lawrence County

[nyslowhand]

BTW - That's a rifle scope suggestion in a Xbow topic....

Don't have any suggestions, I did make sure I got a VG scope when I purchased my Xbow. My s/u was right on with every yardage "dot", 20-50yrds with NO Kentucky windage needed to be applied for yardages +/- the zeroing distance! This is the catch-22 of getting into Xbow hunting with a budget Xbow. First thing the mfger scrimps on to meet a lower MSRP is the optics. Seen a lot of people doing this exact thing; buy a budget Xbow, unhappy with scope, upgrade scope and you end up with a low/mid-range performing Xbow with a good scope. Before you know it you've gotten into the price range with the budget pkg and upgraded scope of a better Xbow & scope. There may be exceptions of course!

[ApexerER]

I have the Nikon Bolt XR.....Super happy with it....Nice and clear....Far superior to the scope that came on my crossbow....

[DDT]

2 hours ago, ApexerER said:

I have the Nikon Bolt XR.....Super happy with it....Nice and clear....Far superior to the scope that came on my crossbow....

My son and I both swapped out to the Nikon bolt. Real good scope as are all Nikon's. The cross hairs lined right up to the yardages on our xbows.

[vizslas]

I think the nikon bolt xr  needs to be tested on your favorite yardage range. depending on the speed of your bolts you will have to adjust for yardage as the reticles are not adjustable. but with Nikon spot on technology if you know your bolt speed it will make all adjustments for you and tell you what the spots should be at. just go to Nikon spot on and get busy.

[wildcat junkie]

22 hours ago, SilverPharmer said:

By the way I see you might be a north country boy as well? Grew up in Lisbon in St. Lawrence County

I used to frequent Gray's quite a lot when the expense of driving from Brasher wasn't so hard on the budget.

 

19 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

BTW - That's a rifle scope suggestion in a Xbow topic....

 

Yes, I didn't realize until after I posted that it was an XBow topic. That being said, the comment on lighted reticles still applies. If you can't see your reticle significantly beyond legal shooting hours, you need beter optics.

[nyslowhand]

6 hours ago, wildcat junkie said:

.... If you can't see your reticle significantly beyond legal shooting hours, you need better optics.

Pretty sure what you actually meant and just how this is read are two completely different scenarios...!?! Want to elaborate?

[wildcat junkie]

7 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

Pretty sure what you actually meant and just how this is read are two completely different scenarios...!?! Want to elaborate?

OK how's this? If you can't see your non illuminated  reticle, you either have  pi$$ poor optics or you're hunting WAY, WAY beyond legal shooting hours 

 I will typical take a new scope, along with a proven rifle/scope combo out to my stand in the evening  keep comparing low light performance down a long 250yd shooting lane until it gets too dark to see the reticle.

All of the scopes I have purchased in the last 25 years  have either been Nikon, Luepold or Kahles with simple duplex reticles. Although the image resolution varied somewhat, in every instance, the reticles were still clearly visible for some time after small details such as tree branches (antlers) were becoming very difficult to see.

Big objective lens are a marketing ploy to some extent as an objective lens more than 5X in mm than the highest magnification will not admit any mote light into the human eye. In other words, the optimum objective lens size for a variable scope @ 9x will be 45 mm.  A scope with 50 mm objective lens will not be noticeably "brighter" at 9x than a scope with a 40 mm objective lens. Since a scope with a magnification factor of more than 3x would be of little use on a crossbow at any ethical ranges that the projectile will still be effective in penetration,  a scope with a 20 mm objective lens would be most effective. If you want "artillery" use a longhbow. The French learned that lesson painfully at the battle of Agincourt

Scopes do not "gather light", that is a manufactures term. What good optics have is a resistance to reflecting light from each lens surface, both external AND internal. Since every scope has @ least 8 lens surfaces,  small improvement to the percentage of reflected light @ each surface can make a significant improvement in low light performance.

So given those FACTS, they most effective scope for a crossbow would be a 3x scope with a 20 mm objective lens,  a non-illuminated ranging duplex reticle sighted in precisely for each hash mark, of the highest optical quality possible.

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[SilverPharmer]

15 hours ago, wildcat junkie said:

I used to frequent Gray's quite a lot when the expense of driving from Brasher wasn't so hard on the budget.

 

Yes, I didn't realize until after I posted that it was an XBow topic. That being said, the comment on lighted reticles still applies. If you can't see your reticle significantly beyond legal shooting hours, you need beter optics.

Scott was a year ahead of me in high school and his father Jack was an old baseketball coach.  Small world indeed.  Overall I'm very happy with my whitetail II, and would recommend it.  I'm in the newly wed phase with crossbow hunting where everything is new and exciting.  My stand overlooks a well shaded valley which gets a lot less sunshine which is why I was looking for the upgrade, otherwise I'd be spending the $$ on a bow as I'm going to try my hand at that next year.

[wildcat junkie]

55 minutes ago, SilverPharmer said:

Scott was a year ahead of me in high school and his father Jack was an old baseketball coach.  Small world indeed.  Overall I'm very happy with my whitetail II, and would recommend it.  I'm in the newly wed phase with crossbow hunting where everything is new and exciting.  My stand overlooks a well shaded valley which gets a lot less sunshine which is why I was looking for the upgrade, otherwise I'd be spending the $$ on a bow as I'm going to try my hand at that next year.

The very best "archery" weapon for low light hunting is a tradition bow shot "true" instinctive style.

When I was 14 yo, a buddy & I would hunt cotton tails with recurve bows @ night in the, then lightly developed, suburbs of Chicago. We would walk the transition from prairie to housing. The very best nights were overcast as there would be no shadows which the little bunnies would use to their advantage. There was a lot of spot & stalking going on to get a shot, but I was pretty constant when a gor a shot within 20 yds. I managed to kill 6 cotton tails that way in fall/winter of '64/'65

When shooting truly instinctive, all you need to see is the target and be peripherally aware of your bow arm.

Edited November 8, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[SilverPharmer]

You are not the first person to tell me that, I think I'll have to check them out when I'm ready to buy.  Thanks again as always.

[SilverPharmer]

21 hours ago, DDT said:

My son and I both swapped out to the Nikon bolt. Real good scope as are all Nikon's. The cross hairs lined right up to the yardages on our xbows.

I've seen the bolt come in at the top of a lot of reviews.  I believe it is fixed magnification?  If it is not does changing the magnification throw off your sights??

[DDT]

56 minutes ago, SilverPharmer said:

I've seen the bolt come in at the top of a lot of reviews.  I believe it is fixed magnification?  If it is not does changing the magnification throw off your sights??

It's a straight 3x. 

As far as the range dots working, I try to keep things simple when bowhunting due to the close proximity of the deer. 

I spent some time working with them using a rangefinder. Starting at 20 yds working out to 50 readjusting as needed. I f I'm an inch high or low at each range thats within minute of deer.

Then take the rangefinder to an elevated position and practice so you'll know how to hold in the stand.

I range and memorize from the tree stand, then it's cruise control when the pressure is on.

An inch or two up or down still knocks em dead. Then it's the broadheads job.

Now on my long range guns it's a different story. I have the Nikon spot on chart taped to my stock.

[Core]

I'm using Nikon XR. It's a "cheap" nikon scope, so it only pulls 92% light vs their higher end models pulling high 90's. That said, it blows away the stock scope on my budget bow, and at first and last light it is plenty bright enough to see game. Further to wildcat's point I also wonder why you'd need a lighted reticle if the scope is decent and you're shooting legal hours.

Their spot-on app particularly on this scope is an okay starting point but you'll almost certainly want to confirm with a range finder.

For me it's 20/30/45. I wish it could be 20/30/40/50 but oh well.

3X magnification really is plenty for xbow. You can still see everything nice and clear out through even far xbow ranges.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Core

[Core]

59 minutes ago, DDT said:

I range and memorize from the tree stand, then it's cruise control when the pressure is on.

An inch or two up or down still knocks em dead. Then it's the broadheads job.

Now on my long range guns it's a different story. I have the Nikon spot on chart taped to my stock.

I do the same thing so when they come by I already know the range. Also I used a high end printer to make a tiny charge of the ballistics from spot-on. I don't really like BDC on guns even though all my scopes are nikon BDC, but this way I can adjust the scopes for anything out past 100 (in theory).

[Jdubs]

17 minutes ago, Core said:

I'm using Nikon XR. It's a "cheap" nikon scope, so it only pulls 92% light vs their higher end models pulling high 90's. That said, it blows away the stock scope on my budget bow, and at first and last light it is plenty bright enough to see game. Further to wildcat's point I also wonder why you'd need a lighted reticle if the scope is decent and you're shooting legal hours.

Their spot-on app particularly on this scope is an okay starting point but you'll almost certainly want to confirm with a range finder.

For me it's 20/30/45. I wish it could be 20/30/40/50 but oh well.

3X magnification really is plenty for xbow. You can still see everything nice and clear out through even far xbow ranges.

This pretty much sums up my experience with the Nikon Bolt XR.  Spot on app is a piece of cake to use and matches up with my range results.  Heck of a scope for the price and intended usage (deer hunting).

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Jdubs

[SilverPharmer]

1 hour ago, DDT said:

It's a straight 3x. 

As far as the range dots working, I try to keep things simple when bowhunting due to the close proximity of the deer. 

I spent some time working with them using a rangefinder. Starting at 20 yds working out to 50 readjusting as needed. I f I'm an inch high or low at each range thats within minute of deer.

Then take the rangefinder to an elevated position and practice so you'll know how to hold in the stand.

I range and memorize from the tree stand, then it's cruise control when the pressure is on.

An inch or two up or down still knocks em dead. Then it's the broadheads job.

Now on my long range guns it's a different story. I have the Nikon spot on chart taped to my stock.

Thanks for the info, did you find the 3X to wide of a field? I'm currently shooting a 4X now.  Being new to archery of any type I was confused why my bolts were not landing where they should from my stand based on my rangefinder.  Did not realize the importance of a rangefinder that can take the angle into consideration (at least from what I am told anyways).  I did however do the same where I put my target out in different distances into my shooting ranges and memorized which reticle to use and that was a huge help this past weekend. 

[SilverPharmer]

34 minutes ago, Core said:

I'm using Nikon XR. It's a "cheap" nikon scope, so it only pulls 92% light vs their higher end models pulling high 90's. That said, it blows away the stock scope on my budget bow, and at first and last light it is plenty bright enough to see game. Further to wildcat's point I also wonder why you'd need a lighted reticle if the scope is decent and you're shooting legal hours.

Their spot-on app particularly on this scope is an okay starting point but you'll almost certainly want to confirm with a range finder.

For me it's 20/30/45. I wish it could be 20/30/40/50 but oh well.

3X magnification really is plenty for xbow. You can still see everything nice and clear out through even far xbow ranges.

The reason why I was considering the lighted reticle is that I do not see colors very well.( I basically own brown pants and jeans as everything will match with them).  I can do ok with colors as long as they are very opposite in nature, say blue and red.  Shades or in this case brown deer with a black reticle can get lost  especially at first and last light.  Easy to see against a red target but not so much (at least for me) for the real thing.   With a rifle/slug gun, I actually prefer open sights that are color enhanced to help see the difference.  Anyways, that's the thought behind why I was looking at scopes that offered them.

[Core]

17 minutes ago, SilverPharmer said:

Thanks for the info, did you find the 3X to wide of a field? I'm currently shooting a 4X now.  Being new to archery of any type I was confused why my bolts were not landing where they should from my stand based on my rangefinder.  Did not realize the importance of a rangefinder that can take the angle into consideration (at least from what I am told anyways).  I did however do the same where I put my target out in different distances into my shooting ranges and memorized which reticle to use and that was a huge help this past weekend. 

My rangefinder won't do angles, but you're interested in horizontal distance to target (that perpendicular to force of gravity) and nothing else. Although at a deeply mathematical level this is not entirely accurate, for hunting purposes it is. So I measure horizontal distance when range finding and pick a tree and target as high up on that tree as I am; base of a tree may be 32-33, but at the same height as me maybe it's 30. This way I know to hit a point on that tree I actually use 30. And although a deer standing next to it is literally 33 yards away due to the angle of me in the tree, again I use 30 because if I were on the ground it would only be 30 yards away.

I can't speak for anyone else but there are people who gun hunt with fixed magnification at, say, 4X out to a couple hundred yards (maybe more?). I love magnification, too, but 3X truly is plenty for a crossbow. It's enough to "aim small" but even at 60 yards it's like the thing is only 20 yards away.

[nyslowhand]

If you do the math (trigonometry) for a 15-18' high tree stand shot and at a distance of 20+yrds, pretty insignificant variation to horiz distance. This variation shows up more in distances less than 20yrds for steeper shot angles. This is esp true with slower (fps) bows, heavier arrow s/u and when the shot might be more angular at smaller target areas or kill zones. Biggest deviation for a Xbow is beyond ~40yrds, when the bolt/arrow really begins to drop dramatically.

Out of habit I still carry my rangefinder, but rarely use it for other than the 6X mag. Pre-season I hang orange surveyor's tape at ranged 25yrds points around each of my treestands. Also have occasional dbl flags at 40yrds to mark out my max comfort range. More power to you people that can pre-range trees. logs, rocks etc and remember that distance in the heat of the moment! I can't, so I don't rely on my memory when it matters most!

 

[bugsNbows]

On 11/6/2017 at 3:40 PM, wildcat junkie said:

I can see my duplex reticle LONG after legal shooting hours have passed. Invest in good glass and steer clear of all the gimmicks.

 

I just upgraded to a Leupold VX3i 3.5-10 x 40 with standard duplex reticle. I let you know by the end of the week when I get it mounted and head to the range. It's replacing a Kahles 3-9x42 so it has a very tough act to follow. 

Replacing a Kahles with a Leupy?

 

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by bugsNbows
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[nyslowhand]

For us old farts with failing eyesight, an illuminated dot is much easier to see & acquire the target than a X-hair! Very little to do with 1st or last light conditions, for me.

Interesting, are there actually variable power scopes for Xbows? Thought they were all fixed at 3-4X...