Argument Over Shortening Gun Season

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

So you are misunderstanding what exactly people are saying needs to be shortened. Its GUN SEASON, not deer season as a whole.

Misunderstanding?  Think its a little worse than that. Hope this week of cold weather does not kill the few that are still around in this area of the North.

[dbHunterNY]

I agree with others that less hunting pressure during peak breeding and extended pressure well into December isn't best for the deer.  i don't think it's a major problem, same as when some argue juice isn't worth the squeeze with antler restrictions. There's little to debate, when deer are pressured by hunters they can't seek out the best food sources. they hole up in safe places of cover that may not have the best food.  then go to food at night in harsher conditions, burning more calories while doing so.  as I tried to mention in my other post in here, I don't think it's relevant though and more pondering than anything.  DEC doesn't do anything good for deer if it's over-ruled by the misinformed general public.  our season structures have remained the same forever.  they worked great back in the days of growing the deer population, when everyone refrained from shooting any doe and relied on large portions of the buck population for harvest opportunity.  what better time for an opportunity at a buck than right in the middle of the rut?  times have changed though.  we're maintaining the deer herds now.  to have the most harvest opportunity and combat the more informed portion of the public with loud voices, we need to make the herd the most productive it can be and that doesn't just mean more deer.

[Robhuntandfish]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

So you are misunderstanding what exactly people are saying needs to be shortened. Its GUN SEASON, not deer season as a whole.

Yeah I got it.  I gotta start putting (sarcasm) in air quotes.  Lol

[Robhuntandfish]

1 hour ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Misunderstanding?  Think its a little worse than that. Hope this week of cold weather does not kill the few that are still around in this area of the North.

It's also good to learn that severe weather has no effect on deer.  There are no winter kills.  Thanks for my lesson in deer management.  

I'm guessing your deer do much better with their unlimited food supply and heated water troughs but don't see many of those in the wild these days.  

[Robhuntandfish]

We aren't going to change each other's minds 4 seasons and that's ok.  Never afraid of a healthy debate. But I also don't think your going to sway the DEC any either. And for my opinion I am at least glad of that.  

[Doc]

I have a related question for those that want gun seasons shortened. how is that supposed to help the deer herd? What would be the expected benefit? I think there is more than one answer to those questions, and I am just curious about some of the theories behind this quite frequent demand that gun season be shortened.

I started this thread with the theory that shortening or lengthening the season probably would not have any significant impact on the herd since so few people take advantage of almost all of the season after opening week. But now the thread has morphed a bit, and now I am wondering what those that want to shrink the gun season are hoping to accomplish. Whatever it is, I'll bet that season length doesn't really accomplish it.

[Lawdwaz]

21 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I started this thread with the theory that shortening or lengthening the season probably would not have any significant impact on the herd

I think you started this thread to stir the pot. 

[eagle rider]

No worries, if King Andy has his way we will be throwing rocks during gun season......

I hunt for 5 days with a gun every year for deer and a safe full of deer rifles.  That is a bad investment plan on my part.  I live in a county where we bow hunt from 10/1 to 1/31 every year (Suffolk), same as Westchester. With limited hunting access Suffolk and Westchester took 4500 reported deer in 2016 out of 213,000 statewide. Bow alone in 2016 took 40% of the total deer harvested in NYS.  So there is no doubt in my mind that for the limited range of archery tackle, it is really effective for managing the herd. As far as reducing season time and favoring bow,  PA is contemplating this in south regions (again).  Kentucky did this years ago in the eastern part of the state.  That is they shortened up their gun season considerably and lengthened bow.  They produce lots of nice deer.  But I'm not sure taking the time back from the gun hunters helps much at all.  Tennessee has really long archery splits in their seasons as well and they take hammers out of the western part of the state on the Mississippi state line.  

Edited December 31, 2017 by eagle rider

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Lawdwaz said:

I think you started this thread to stir the pot. 

I'm not sure what makes you say that, but the observations that I have had over the past dozen years or so have been that the activity during gun season traditionally drops off to near nothing after opening weekend, and my theory is that deer herds are not significantly altered by the length of gun season. And so the big controversy about shortening gun seasons seems to really be a moot point. And sure enough, a DEC graph was posted that seemed to back up my contention. So I think the thread was a legitimate discussion.

Now I would like to see some conversation about what people think would be trying to accomplish with their calls for shorter gun seasons just to see if there is another aspect to topic. Again it seems like a legitimate related discussion. That is not stirring the pot, but simply conducting discussion. I believe discussion is why we have forums......right?

[Robhuntandfish]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

I have a related question for those that want gun seasons shortened. how is that supposed to help the deer herd? What would be the expected benefit? I think there is more than one answer to those questions, and I am just curious about some of the theories behind this quite frequent demand that gun season be shortened.

I started this thread with the theory that shortening or lengthening the season probably would not have any significant impact on the herd since so few people take advantage of almost all of the season after opening week. But now the thread has morphed a bit, and now I am wondering what those that want to shrink the gun season are hoping to accomplish. Whatever it is, I'll bet that season length doesn't really accomplish it.

Wth where were you when I was defending this against a mod and a sponsor.  I was debating ypur point for you, could've used a little backup!  I will never pick you as my battle buddy! Even the guys I was debating with would agree with me on this. Lol.

Just busting on you, I'm a big boy I can handle myself.  

But seriously not even a damn like......lol

 

[stubborn1VT]

12 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Wth where were you when I was defending this against a mod and a sponsor.  I was debating ypur point for you, could've used a little backup!  I will never pick you as my battle buddy! Even the guys I was debating with would agree with me on this. Lol.

Just busting on you, I'm a big boy I can handle myself.  

But seriously not even a damn like......lol

 

Can't be battle buddies with an "Army of One"!

[Robhuntandfish]

4 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

Can't be battle buddies with an "Army of One"!

Lol true.  But at least I had the DEC as backup and they have the final say.  It's like kids argueing then Dad steps in and tells us it doesn't matter cause these are the rules!  

[stubborn1VT]

I think they are just throwing ideas out there, not attempting to change policy.  I get what they are arguing for, but their goals seem better suited to managing properties than the entire herd.  

I get what you're saying.  None of this debate has any bearing on what the DEC does.  It should be fun to debate it, but it never ends up that way.  I wonder if there is any one person that has the smarts to manage the entire deer herd.  It sure as heck isn't me!

[Robhuntandfish]

Yeah different parts of NY sure vary. Maybe more than anywhere.  From hunting long island (which to me just sounds daunting) , to the big old growth of the dacks, to the more farm rich southern zones etc....

My only point was to not shorten a season across the state when the issue is probably regional and more to do with habitats.  That's it's unfair to shorten the gun season for all. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Robhuntandfish

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Wth where were you when I was defending this against a mod and a sponsor.  I was debating ypur point for you, could've used a little backup!  I will never pick you as my battle buddy! Even the guys I was debating with would agree with me on this. Lol.

Just busting on you, I'm a big boy I can handle myself.  

But seriously not even a damn like......lol

 

I try to get in on all the discussions that go on here, but I don't have time to catch all of the conversations and do miss quite a few of them. Anything that happened here over the past hunting season probably didn't get read because I was pretty intensely involved in my hunting. So if I missed this subject on another thread, I apologize.

But I have not come at this subject with a mission to cause battle. Every year as I compare current hunting seasons to past ones, it gets to be more and more obvious that either hunter numbers are diminishing, or hunter participation and enthusiasm is only good for a few days at the beginning. So whenever I hear arguments about hunting season lengths, I keep wondering how changing the lengths of seasons one way or the other is going to have any impacts at all if most hunters call an end to the season after a few days. So I decided to start topic that addressed all of this. I do this in the spirit of curiosity and not for any combative reasons. See, I am not even sure what people are trying to achieve with shorter seasons. There may be some legitimate reasons for shortening the gun season that I don't even understand yet.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Doc

[Hunter007]

Why  stop there just have no gun season for 2 or 3  years

 guys will probably still be here complaining  I bet:) 

[steve863]

3 hours ago, eagle rider said:

No worries, if King Andy has his way we will be throwing rocks during gun season......

I hunt for 5 days with a gun every year for deer and a safe full of deer rifles.  That is a bad investment plan on my part.  I live in a county where we bow hunt from 10/1 to 1/31 every year (Suffolk), same as Westchester. With limited hunting access Suffolk and Westchester took 4500 reported deer in 2016 out of 213,000 statewide. Bow alone in 2016 took 40% of the total deer harvested in NYS.  So there is no doubt in my mind that for the limited range of archery tackle, it is really effective for managing the herd. As far as reducing season time and favoring bow,  PA is contemplating this in south regions (again).  Kentucky did this years ago in the eastern part of the state.  That is they shortened up their gun season considerably and lengthened bow.  They produce lots of nice deer.  But I'm not sure taking the time back from the gun hunters helps much at all.  Tennessee has really long archery splits in their seasons as well and they take hammers out of the western part of the state on the Mississippi state line.  

I don't think you should be giving Cuomo any ideas.  He'd be more than happy to claim that bowhunters only could get the job done on deer so that he could try to eliminate hunting guns also.  That said, I don't think your statement that bowhunters accounted for 40% of the total deer kill is accurate.  According to the attached figures in 2016 there were 46,735 deer taken during bow season out of a total take of 213,000.  That doesn't come out to 40%.  It closer to half that.  Granted that hunting in Westchester and LI during regular season is with bow, and that some people hunt with bow during the gun season, but that still won't get you to anywhere near 40%.  If bowhunters were so good in getting deer numbers down in the month and a half before gun season starts in the southern zone, the gun hunters wouldn't have nearly the success they do.  The facts are that bowhunters alone would NEVER kill nearly the numbers that would be needed in many areas of the state.