17 killed in shooting at high school in Parkland, Florida, authorities say

[Culvercreek hunt club]

19 minutes ago, Belo said:

uhhh like 3 days ago

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/28/us/georgia-dalton-high-school-teacher-gunfire/index.html

Well it wasn't legal for him to have it there.  Just so he isn't confused  with law abiding folks. Won't have to worry about him again with a Felony on his record.

 

Of the states and locals that do allow for teacher to legally carry,  have you seen any incidents? 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

38 minutes ago, Belo said:

uhhh like 3 days ago

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/28/us/georgia-dalton-high-school-teacher-gunfire/index.html

Dude shouldn't have had a gun IMO. If he had a CC Permit, why was it still in force?

Davidson has a history of bizarre medical episodes both at school and outside of school, The Chattanoogan reports.

In March 2016, he went to the police department headquarters and said he wanted to confess to having someone killed. Davidson, who was accompanied by his wife, told detectives he had an Internet affair with a woman named Jacqueline Enrique who was the girlfriend of his adopted son, The Chattanoogan reports. According to the police report, he said the affair lasted a few weeks and then he told his wife about it. Davidson told detectives that the woman was pregnant with twins at the time and she was abusive to them and causing him problems after they were born. Davidson said he was approached by two friends who told him they would “take care of her for him<" and he agreed. The friends later told her that they had killed her. He was vague about the details, police said. Detectives were never able to locate a woman named Jacqueline Enrique.

During that incident he told police he was depressed, had been on several medications to treat that and had recently gotten out of the hospital, WXIA-TV reports. Police said in the report they found Davidson was “delusional or having something else that had occurred that is causing him to have these thoughts.” He was taken to the hospital for observation, “based on him thinking about hurting himself.”

In January 2017, Davidson was reported missing while at school. Police responded after Davidson told other staff members that he wasn’t feeling well and was going to leave for the remainder of the day. He was later found in the far east hallway of the school in an area far from where his classroom and department were located. When his wife later arrived to pick him up, he couldn’t be found. Officers responded, but also couldn’t find him.

Police said he was then spotted hours later walking on a street near the school. EMS responded and he was found to be sitting on a curb being held up by two staff members. Police said Davidson was conscious and didn’t appear to be in any type of physical distress, but an officer said he and others tried to speak with him, “but no amount of stimulus would draw a response from Davidson,” according to the Chattanoogan. He was then taken to the hospital.

[Five Seasons]

59 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Well it wasn't legal for him to have it there.  Just so he isn't confused  with law abiding folks. Won't have to worry about him again with a Felony on his record.

 

Of the states and locals that do allow for teacher to legally carry,  have you seen any incidents? 

he asked a question. I gave an answer. 

You're not changing my mind on arming teachers. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Belo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

16 minutes ago, Belo said:

he asked a question. I gave an answer. 

You're not changing my mind on arming teachers. 

But you don't want to answer mine? ok, Figured

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Well it wasn't legal for him to have it there.  Just so he isn't confused  with law abiding folks. Won't have to worry about him again with a Felony on his record.

 

Of the states and locals that do allow for teacher to legally carry,  have you seen any incidents? 

You beat me to it. 

[Five Seasons]

42 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

But you don't want to answer mine? ok, Figured

didn't see it. And I think you know your case doesn't hold water.

Your sample size is tiny.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/10/where-guns-are-allowed-on-campus/412708/

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Belo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

5 minutes ago, Belo said:

didn't see it. And I think you know your case doesn't hold water.

Your sample size is tiny.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/10/where-guns-are-allowed-on-campus/412708/

 

Tiny? What's the size of your sample to support your purely emotional position? 

I would like for you to tell me what "case" you think  I am trying to support. 

[Just Lucky]

3 hours ago, Belo said:

No. That's not it and you know it. There is something to be said as a parent (not sure if you're one) that when you send your kid off to school to be looked after and cared for by others that they will come home safe minus the occasional bully and fight. Adults make their own decisions, taking a risk to go anywhere in public, take public transportation or even drive down the road is a choice we make. Children MUST go to school.

I agree childen pull at the heart strings more, but thats not the only reason.

And yes I am a parent of 2 daughters, and a son.

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Tiny? What's the size of your sample to support your purely emotional position? 

I would like for you to tell me what "case" you think  I am trying to support. 

you're supporting arming teachers correct?

Your argument is basically stating that law abiding teachers with proper training should be allowed to concealed carry? My argument is that I would not want this in the classroom and support armed and trained guards instead.

The analogy I'll use (that you wont like), is that even those who legally own and posses a weapon can go batshit crazy. Case and point, the recent school shooter and las vegas shooter all obtained and possessed their weapons legally. So if you'd like to go down the path of arming teachers, you also need to agree to step up our background check and vetting programs to obtain and carry firearms. Or, and I promise you, eventually there will be an incident with a teacher in a school. 

As far as small sample size, my link showed you how few states and by percentage of population even allow this legally, let alone where it is actually used. 

to double down on my point. Even trained military personnel can go off the deep end. Why are teachers infallible? 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fort-hood-shooter-obtained-weapon-ongoing-terrorism-investigation/story?id=9058803 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Belo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

14 minutes ago, Belo said:

you're supporting arming teachers correct?

Your argument is basically stating that law abiding teachers with proper training should be allowed to concealed carry? My argument is that I would not want this in the classroom and support armed and trained guards instead.

The analogy I'll use (that you wont like), is that even those who legally own and posses a weapon can go batshit crazy. Case and point, the recent school shooter and las vegas shooter all obtained and possessed their weapons legally. So if you'd like to go down the path of arming teachers, you also need to agree to step up our background check and vetting programs to obtain and carry firearms. Or, and I promise you, eventually there will be an incident with a teacher in a school. 

As far as small sample size, my link showed you how few states and by percentage of population even allow this legally, let alone where it is actually used. 

to double down on my point. Even trained military personnel can go off the deep end. Why are teachers infallible? 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fort-hood-shooter-obtained-weapon-ongoing-terrorism-investigation/story?id=9058803 

I support allowing vetted, trained and willing teachers to be part of the plan. I also think armed and trained and vetted guards should be a cog in that plan as well. I think the plans should be Federal mandates and not subject to the whim of the districts. I'd also like to see mandatory metal detectors. I know teachers that I wouldn't hesitate to have them carry. I also know many that I wouldn't want to carry. I can say the same for LEO's and Military. There will be no 100% guarantee in any system put into place but I honestly believe that having armed staff as part of the school security will take the easy target stigma away from the schools.  I really don't think we are far apart on this. I just see your staunch opposition to any teacher being armed as emotional and not based in any fact. There are different levels of background checks in this country. I've been through several. ones like my pistol permit and right up to clearance for Federal installations where previous school teachers were contacted and credit checks for possible targeting for payoffs for information. . These kids are our most important resource. Just like 12 year olds being allowed to big game hunt, I haven't seen anyone suggest patting the teachers on the back and just saying go get 'em and turning them loose. 

[philoshop]

29 minutes ago, Belo said:

you're supporting arming teachers correct?

Your argument is basically stating that law abiding teachers with proper training should be allowed to concealed carry? My argument is that I would not want this in the classroom and support armed and trained guards instead.

The analogy I'll use (that you wont like), is that even those who legally own and posses a weapon can go batshit crazy. Case and point, the recent school shooter and las vegas shooter all obtained and possessed their weapons legally. So if you'd like to go down the path of arming teachers, you also need to agree to step up our background check and vetting programs to obtain and carry firearms. Or, and I promise you, eventually there will be an incident with a teacher in a school. 

As far as small sample size, my link showed you how few states and by percentage of population even allow this legally, let alone where it is actually used. 

 

Are you assuming that a trained security guard (or a county Sheriff or School Superintendent) couldn't somehow go "batshit" crazy as well? Doesn't work for me Belo.

The teacher is the last and strongest point of defense. If there is an announcement of an 'active shooter' the response is to shelter in place. Lock the door and move some furniture around to provide barriers, but if the shooter gains entry to that classroom the teacher should be able to shoot back.

The shooting in Parkland was caused by policies that made sure that kid was not stopped or even questioned along his route toward becoming a mass murderer. He wasn't stopped because policies were in place to reward certain people for ignoring every sign along the way so that charts and graphs regarding the school system would look better. This is happening right now all over the country.

 

[Five Seasons]

10 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I support allowing vetted, trained and willing teachers to be part of the plan. I also think armed and trained and vetted guards should be a cog in that plan as well. I think the plans should be Federal mandates and not subject to the whim of the districts. I'd also like to see mandatory metal detectors. I know teachers that I wouldn't hesitate to have them carry. I also know many that I wouldn't want to carry. I can say the same for LEO's and Military. There will be no 100% guarantee in any system put into place but I honestly believe that having armed staff as part of the school security will take the easy target stigma away from the schools.  I really don't think we are far apart on this. I just see your staunch opposition to any teacher being armed as emotional and not based in any fact. There are different levels of background checks in this country. I've been through several. ones like my pistol permit and right up to clearance for Federal installations where previous school teachers were contacted and credit checks for possible targeting for payoffs for information. . These kids are our most important resource. Just like 12 year olds being allowed to big game hunt, I haven't seen anyone suggest patting the teachers on the back and just saying go get 'em and turning them loose. 

my opinion is emotional yes, but I have a long line of teachers in my family, which also has a long line of gun loving outdoorsman. I feel my feelings have some merit to them. You're correct that we're not far apart. I too have gone through background checks. To the length that I can't even talk about it. We are not anywhere near that as a country, and that's probably my biggest rub with the NRA.

[Five Seasons]

9 minutes ago, philoshop said:

 

Are you assuming that a trained security guard (or a county Sheriff or School Superintendent) couldn't somehow go "batshit" crazy as well? Doesn't work for me Belo.

 

general odd are less. A few trained personnel per school whose sole purpose is protection. Or tens of thousands of teachers whose main goal is educating children. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

10 minutes ago, Belo said:

general odd are less. A few trained personnel per school whose sole purpose is protection. Or tens of thousands of teachers whose main goal is educating children. 

I'd be willing to bet there are people that were effected by the Parkland shooting that wish a couple teachers were armed as opposed to the "highly trained" security that was there on that day.  Belo, It really does blow my mind that you can't even entertain the possibility that there are teachers in the population that could and would act appropriately and contribute to the solution.  You honestly sound like the left in the generalizations you are making. Since you wouldn't trust the ones you know in your family, none of them should be trusted. 

[jjb4900]

37 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I'd be willing to bet there are people that were effected by the Parkland shooting that wish a couple teachers were armed as opposed to the "highly trained" security that was there on that day.  Belo, It really does blow my mind that you can't even entertain the possibility that there are teachers in the population that could and would act appropriately and contribute to the solution.  You honestly sound like the left in the generalizations you are making. Since you wouldn't trust the ones you know in your family, none of them should be trusted. 

yes, I think after Parkland we've seen what teachers are capable of when it comes to protecting their students...I have very little doubt that some will do what needs to be done when thrown into a situation like that.

[Five Seasons]

41 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I'd be willing to bet there are people that were effected by the Parkland shooting that wish a couple teachers were armed as opposed to the "highly trained" security that was there on that day.  Belo, It really does blow my mind that you can't even entertain the possibility that there are teachers in the population that could and would act appropriately and contribute to the solution.  You honestly sound like the left in the generalizations you are making. Since you wouldn't trust the ones you know in your family, none of them should be trusted. 

woah, woah, woah. I never said that there aren't capable teachers. However, I don't see a system that could be instilled that is feasible and would be worth the risk. I've had a fairly successful career in risk mitigation. It's what I do all day long. I look at arming teachers as not worth the risk. It's really that simple. 

Just because we disagree on this, doesn't mean you should lump me in with the left. I'm a gun toting, red blooded, deer shooting NRA member. I just don't believe arming teachers is smart.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

4 minutes ago, Belo said:

woah, woah, woah. I never said that there aren't capable teachers. However, I don't see a system that could be instilled that is feasible and would be worth the risk. I've had a fairly successful career in risk mitigation. It's what I do all day long. I look at arming teachers as not worth the risk. It's really that simple. 

Just because we disagree on this, doesn't mean you should lump me in with the left. I'm a gun toting, red blooded, deer shooting NRA member. I just don't believe arming teachers is smart.

Fair enough

[jjb4900]

I think the mind works very differently when you're thrown into a survival situation as opposed to being asked to walk into an active shooter situation...I don't car if you're a cop, ex-military or whatever, not the same. 

[philoshop]

It's not about arming teachers and creating Rambo figures. It's about allowing teachers to defend themselves and their students in horrible situations. A teacher who has no desire to do that won't be required to do so. But a school system that won't even allow a teacher to be armed is being very short-sighted.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

14 minutes ago, philoshop said:

It's not about arming teachers and creating Rambo figures. It's about allowing teachers to defend themselves and their students in horrible situations. A teacher who has no desire to do that won't be required to do so. But a school system that won't even allow a teacher to be armed is being very short-sighted.

I am not really envisioning a teacher dashing out of their classroom to take on a shooter in a gun battle down a hall. I see that kind of interaction being with the armed security. I do picture in my head a  teacher in their room in what I have seen as the normal lockdown procedures (not that I agree with the huddled in a group with text books in front of their heads). That teacher having a gun and if that shooter busts into the classroom, they aren't there as a target throwing pencils at the psycho. 

[chas0218]

31 minutes ago, Belo said:

woah, woah, woah. I never said that there aren't capable teachers. However, I don't see a system that could be instilled that is feasible and would be worth the risk. I've had a fairly successful career in risk mitigation. It's what I do all day long. I look at arming teachers as not worth the risk. It's really that simple. 

Just because we disagree on this, doesn't mean you should lump me in with the left. I'm a gun toting, red blooded, deer shooting NRA member. I just don't believe arming teachers is smart.

I see it as if I were in my house protecting my family. I don't think for a second any teacher would be willing to engage in a gunfight with an active shooter. They haven't had that kind of training but to sit and wait (similar to how many of us hunt) while being armed isn't a bad thing. Definitely not the ideal situation but at least it isn't like shooting fish in a barrel. Not to mention you get into the head of the shooter knowing there very well could be people there to stop him before he starts.

We all don't have to worry about this in NY they are already trying to pass a bill that keeps teachers from becoming armed. The best quote of the article "More guns does not equal safer schools," then they go on to talk about more of a need for "common sense" gun laws. 

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/03/04/armed-teachers-schools-ny-lawmakers-want-ban/393184002/ 

 

[philoshop]

35 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I am not really envisioning a teacher dashing out of their classroom to take on a shooter in a gun battle down a hall. I see that kind of interaction being with the armed security. I do picture in my head a  teacher in their room in what I have seen as the normal lockdown procedures (not that I agree with the huddled in a group with text books in front of their heads). That teacher having a gun and if that shooter busts into the classroom, they aren't there as a target throwing pencils at the psycho. 

That is precisely the disconnect that's keeping people from discussing this in any rational way. Anyone carrying a gun is seen as a Rambo or a psychopath. The issue of self-defense is entirely ignored by the left, because it doesn't fit the narrative that "the government can protect you". The government can not, and will not protect you in these situations. That's a personal responsibility and a personal right that needs to be defended.

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, chas0218 said:

 Not to mention you get into the head of the shooter knowing there very well could be people there to stop him before he starts.

i'm not sure one of these shooters cared much for their own life. none of them hardly make it out alive or kill themselves. you're applying logic to it. This last guy was so messed up we can't begin to understand. Heck, if the on duty guard and FBI did their job we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And he knew the place had an armed guard. didn't care. 

[jjb4900]

51 minutes ago, Belo said:

i'm not sure one of these shooters cared much for their own life. none of them hardly make it out alive or kill themselves. you're applying logic to it. This last guy was so messed up we can't begin to understand. Heck, if the on duty guard and FBI did their job we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And he knew the place had an armed guard. didn't care. 

I don't think may people understand what a School Resource Officer does...sure the guy screwed up, but he wasn't there to "guard the school".

[Five Seasons]

14 hours ago, jjb4900 said:

I don't think may people understand what a School Resource Officer does...sure the guy screwed up, but he wasn't there to "guard the school".

and armed teachers wont be there to guard the school either. But to culver's point, they're still a body with a gun. My point still being, the shooter knew he was there and proceeded with his plan anyhow... so how much of a deterrent would armed teachers really be to a psychopath?