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Hunting Mature Deer


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Maturity is about age- 3.5 years or older. Does about meat. Bucks about moments/challenge. Deer hunting about experience.

True when you are talking about the hunters point of view... from a management point of few... only the first one is true.

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True when you are talking about the hunters point of view... from a management point of few... only the first one is true.

I guess I am fortunate enough to make all of the part of my managment gameplan....have dabled with it since 99 and bumped it up significantly in 05 and then again in 09...it meets all of my needs and desires..... self control and hard work do wonders for good experience imo. The vast majority of NYers, including some that preach a different tune, understand QDM or TDM....let laone deer in general. Just my $0.02 though

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I guess I am fortunate enough to make all of the part of my managment gameplan....have dabled with it since 99 and bumped it up significantly in 05 and then again in 09...it meets all of my needs and desires..... self control and hard work do wonders for good experience imo. The vast majority of NYers, including some that preach a different tune, understand QDM or TDM....let laone deer in general. Just my $0.02 though

That is kinda what I meant with my post... you used the word "my" several times... from your point of view you see what you do as deer management when in fact it is hunter management or even better yet "personal deer management"... true it may work great for you and your hunting experience, but doesn't necessarily do anything for deer management from a conservation point of view... In my view QDM and TDM are programs that evolved from the original concept of managing deer herds based on given habitat for the overall benefit of the deer... into managing deer herds to suit personal hunting pleasure...more of a hunting management plan... all that is fine if thats what you're into.. I just don't like the dishonesty by hunters when it comes to the real reason they have adopted a "deer management plan" ...and that is for their own personal hunting experience... with deer conservation being secondary to their personal wants.

Edited by nyantler
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I don't have a plan.. I just hunt. But, I have an opinion when it comes to arguments against management decisions... most hunter argument against them are based on the personal affect it will have on their hunting without regard for whether it is a sound management decision that might be good for the deer. That is the point I was trying to make... I not putting down what you said... it is true from a hunter prospective... I feel quite the same way about deerhunting probably as you... I just don't believe that management decisions should be based on mine or anyone elses hunting wants or need... wouldn't it be something if the herds were so well adapted and balanced that we could take all the deer we wanted of any size or shape with any weapon we wanted?... I think that would be great... that is what I might want, but that isn't what management decision should be based on. I agree with you that deer hunting for me personally is about experience, and doe are about meat, bucks about moment and challenge... but deer hunting from a management point of view should be only about DEER and how it can be done as to benefit the DEER!... and we should learn to adapt our personal views to meet those goals

Edited by nyantler
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I do agree that the recurve does limit you but I know I can't shoot past 20-25 yards and I stick to that rule. I had a nice 8 pointer in fornt of me last year. He was around 30 yards and there was no way I would have taken the shot. 30 yards in the woods is long shot with a bow 50 is even longer. The only problem I see with a 50 yard shot is that I know people can't see that little twig thatin the way. Sometimes you get lucky and get a clear shot but the way that arrow travels and the difference in sight picture at 50 yards is different and I would never chance the shot. In a range it works great and in an open field no wind I just don't think it is a wise shot.

I am not saying you can't do it but 40-50 yards leaves alot of error to be had.

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I don't have a plan.. I just hunt. But, I have an opinion when it comes to arguments against management decisions... most hunter argument against them are based on the personal affect it will have on their hunting without regard for whether it is a sound management decision that might be good for the deer. That is the point I was trying to make... I not putting down what you said... it is true from a hunter prospective... I feel quite the same way about deerhunting probably as you... I just don't believe that management decisions should be based on mine or anyone elses hunting wants or need... wouldn't it be something if the herds were so well adapted and balanced that we could take all the deer we wanted of any size or shape with any weapon we wanted?... I think that would be great... that is what I might want, but that isn't what management decision should be based on. I agree with you that deer hunting for me personally is about experience, and doe are about meat, bucks about moment and challenge... but deer hunting from a management point of view should be only about DEER and how it can be done as to benefit the DEER!... and we should learn to adapt our personal views to meet those goals

For the most part I agree with what you are saying. However, I'm thinking that those hunters who sound a bit self-serving, are only honestly providing their half of the necessary input to those responsible for making the only true and authoritative game management decisions ...... the DEC. And their opinions are indeed valid. It is important that the DEC know exactly what the hunters feel would provide a quality hunting situation. We aren't exactly left out of the wildlife management formula. We're part of it. Sometimes self-serving opinions that are not polluted with invalid ideas and false notions of biology have more validity and usefulness in representing what it takes to keep a happy effective harvesting tool available.

Hunter needs and animal needs are not off in their own worlds. Both need to be satisfied in a compromised way in order for each to be optimized.

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Between 14 and 16 My first 3 deer I killed were with a 37 lbs bear kodiak recurve my dad got when he was 14. All but one were complete pass throughs at under 20 yrds on the ground, stalking. One doe a spike and an 8 point. I also have about 6 complete misses I can remember :D I love the recurve but it isn't a lazy mans bow. If you do not have the time to put in practiceing everyday don't bother getting one the result wont be pretty. I no longer have the time to shoot one so I went to the compound which I can start shooting a month before and have my body trained to shoot.

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For the most part I agree with what you are saying. However, I'm thinking that those hunters who sound a bit self-serving, are only honestly providing their half of the necessary input to those responsible for making the only true and authoritative game management decisions ...... the DEC. And their opinions are indeed valid. It is important that the DEC know exactly what the hunters feel would provide a quality hunting situation. We aren't exactly left out of the wildlife management formula. We're part of it. Sometimes self-serving opinions that are not polluted with invalid ideas and false notions of biology have more validity and usefulness in representing what it takes to keep a happy effective harvesting tool available.

Hunter needs and animal needs are not off in their own worlds. Both need to be satisfied in a compromised way in order for each to be optimized.

I totally agree... we as hunters are part of the management equation.. and that can be a good thing... but hunters are also a lot of the reason why things don't get done the way they should. I know I sound cynical at times, but I have had almost 20 years of dealing with the hunting public or "Joe Everyday Hunter"... and the one thing that has always stuck with me is the lack of knowledge about whitetail deer that the majority of those hunters have... and their unwillingness to learn anything other than what they hear from other hunters with the same lack of knowledge... I'm not talking about knowing how to find a deer and kill it... that is something most hunters know in some form or another... I'm talking about those false notions of biology and invalid ideas that are used to gather other hunters together against any attempt at a sound management concept or idea

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I don't practice with my recurve every day... I have been shooting instinctively since day one.. I never used sights even on my compounds... I can pick up my recurve at any time and shoot good groups from 20 yards and in... for me its like riding a bike... but yes its true.. shooting a compound with all the gadgets is much easier.. as long as the gadgets are working right.

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"and the one thing that has always stuck with me is the lack of knowledge about whitetail deer that the majority of those hunters have"

Why would this surprise you Joe? Apply this to any aspect of our lives and we run into folks that either do not understand.....don't put forth the effort to understand....or (in all honesty) are incapable of understanding....XXX...you pick the topic...lol. It could be politics...whitetail biology....traffic laws...or any number of everyday scenarios.

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"and the one thing that has always stuck with me is the lack of knowledge about whitetail deer that the majority of those hunters have"

Why would this surprise you Joe? Apply this to any aspect of our lives and we run into folks that either do not understand.....don't put forth the effort to understand....or (in all honesty) are incapable of understanding....XXX...you pick the topic...lol. It could be politics...whitetail biology....traffic laws...or any number of everyday scenarios.

Yeah I've come to realize that too...but i can only handle one topic at a time or my head will explode...lol

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It's true, the average hunter approaches hunting as just one of a whole array of recreational activities. I suspect that darn few of them have any time to go off and get a degree in biology specializing in whitetails....lol. I really don't expect anymore than that from any hunter. It is a form of recreation, and is supposed to be an enjoyable pastime, and a degree in whitetail biology is not required or expected. That's why we leave the management decisions to the DEC who supposedly hires college trained individuals to work out the proper management techniques and apply them in practice and in law. I think that the DEC most likely takes that into account when they solicit hunter opinions and forms their management decisions. Sure, some of those hunter opinions carry some weight because part of what they do is to manage the hunter part of our natural resources. So it is important that they understand what hunters need to continue to participate.

It's up to the DEC to try to balance hunter needs along with the needs of natural resources. It's the same thing they are trying to do with the rest of the states population when they get the different interests involved in the CTFs. Everybody gets their say. It's up to the DEC to take in all this input and make it all come out as a set of compromises that we all can live with and still have a thriving natural world. I think it works out pretty darn good for the most part. I know I don't lose any sleep over the fact that there are hunters out there that are speaking their minds (right or wrong), and I really don't feel they are doing any significant damage by doing so even in cases where they are absolutely wrong. They are just doing what people do. And who knows, maybe sometimes they really do get it right and coerce the DEC to look a bit closer at their methods and results.

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I agree with you Doc, A degree is not required or expected. For me anyways, part of the process and excitement of any pastime I take up.....is the understanding of it or at least trying to...lol. I enjoy golf....had a nasty slice....really got into looking at what causes it...the physics behind it...took me a long time but I have a very nice draw on my drives now....well most of the time ;) .. would it make sense to go sit on the bank of one of the tributaries ...a mile up from Lake Ontario....In July and try your darndest to catch some salmon? not thinking that would work out too well. You need to have a basic understanding of the life cycle of the salmon t be successful. For whitetails....a basic understanding of the mating rituals...dietary habits...seasonal movements....it all helps....or you can pick a tree and lean up against it and see if anything happens by. That is fine too, what ever makes each of us happy. But this in one recreation...like many...that you get out of it what you put in.

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I agree that to just hunt doesn't take a rocket scientist... but if you are gonna argue against management issues and ideas, I think you should know a little about what you are standing for or against... with all the time they have for there "extensive" scouting, food plotting, filming, photographing, talking on a forum... I would think there should be room made to learn a little something about why they're doing all that work... and if sometimes hunters "get it right" and coerce the DEC into looking further into there method..they got it right because they had an arguement based on knowledge of the subject... allowing them to argue the point intelligently

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Doesn't the saying " 90% of the game is killed by 10% of the hunters" pretty much cover this? the 10 % of the sucessful hunter are usually the ones who have put more effort into learning/understanding their game... same goes true for those who are consistant in harvesting mature deer.

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I don't practice with my recurve every day... I have been shooting instinctively since day one.. I never used sights even on my compounds... I can pick up my recurve at any time and shoot good groups from 20 yards and in... for me its like riding a bike... but yes its true.. shooting a compound with all the gadgets is much easier.. as long as the gadgets are working right.

you shoot NO sights on your bows? maybe a re curve i can see that being the case but even your compound?

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i guess i didnt keep up with the thread enough to see how it took a turn from using recurves to "really" understanding whitetail biology and college degrees? lol

Not sure how that happened either.. but yes I have never owned a bow with a sight on it... everything else though..lol just no sights... don't ask me why.. I just have always been comfortable shooting instinctively so I never bothered to put one on.. maybe thats why it was easy for me to transition to traditional bows

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i guess i didnt keep up with the thread enough to see how it took a turn from using recurves to "really" understanding whitetail biology and college degrees? lol

Lol..... even more interesting is how did a a thread about "Hunting Mature Deer" turn into a discussion on using recurves? :biggrin:

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I agree that to just hunt doesn't take a rocket scientist... but if you are gonna argue against management issues and ideas, I think you should know a little about what you are standing for or against... with all the time they have for there "extensive" scouting, food plotting, filming, photographing, talking on a forum... I would think there should be room made to learn a little something about why they're doing all that work... and if sometimes hunters "get it right" and coerce the DEC into looking further into there method..they got it right because they had an arguement based on knowledge of the subject... allowing them to argue the point intelligently

I think we all rely on the pieces of information that we read and hear when conducting discussions on this forum. There probably is a lot of logic that is relied on too. So there always is some level of understanding. I really don't think we have a lot of trained whitetail biologists here (do we have any?), but we sure do have a whole lot of opinions. So we have to be a little careful about what kinds of standards we are going to demand of anyone who posts an opinion here or this place will get real quiet, real quick. :)

The same thing is true when hunters discuss issues in other places, and even when those discussions take place with the DEC. I don't think any of that is hampering good management practices. I expect the managers (DEC) to apply what they have learned when they are accepting hunter input. That's part of their job too.

However, I will say that what you are saying is quite true when hunters (or anyone) begin to bypass the DEC and try to force game management practices through legislators. That can have a negative effect on game management in a very big way. That absolutely is a way that uneducated people begin to make serious negative impacts on game management.

However, simple casual talk among hunters or on forums is really quite harmless and not really anything to get very excited about whether it strictly represents educated credibility or not.

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