qdma

[SteveMcD]

I haven't read through all the posts. But, I am in Region 3 and QDMA is very active down here. I think Antler Restrictions and such are great, and certainly leads toward a healthier deer herd. The only downfall with QDMA as we can see in other states, as well, is that farmers are now locking out their lands for those who can afford to lease them, and if QDMA is being practiced the leases are expensive. That's great if you can afford it.The problem is it locks out the average working man and his family from areas that were once open to anyone for hunting. I am afraid that with QDMA we will become more and more like Europe where only the rich can afford to hunt. The public areas will get even more crowded than the already are, and the average guy will get disgusted and drop out.

[nyantler]

I feel sorry that most of you never had the chance to witness or to have been a part of the QDM when it was first introduced to NY in the early to mid 90's... back then I did numerous seminars on QDM.. just trying to educate NY hunters on the subject.. My Magazine at the time featured the first regular columnist in NY from the QDMA... QDM talk back then was about what to do with the poorly managed whitetails in NY and how to combat the imbalance of the herd based on available NY habitat.. basically taking an existing herd and tweeking things a bit so that the habitat could sustain it .. but it seemed like the only way to get NY hunters to listen at the time was to tell them that the bi-product of these deer management programs was an increase in bigger antlered bucks... what a huge mistake.. that seemed to be the one thing that stuck... suddenly QDM was for creating bigger bucks... then from that came planting hybrid deer foods to increase antler size... hence the food plot craze... everyone and their brother was buying up Biologic and Whitetail Clover, etc.... in hopes off creating monster bucks.

That is how qdm morphed into what you see today... when really it was just about trying to "establish, and maintain healthy balanced deer herds based on the habitat available"... that one sentence really is what the QDM concept is... somehow todays QDM groupies hung on to the newer trophy management version and have strayed from the latter version.

If a area of land with optimum food source with all nutritional requirement could sustain lets say 50 deer.. Guys were now trying to bring that same area of land to double the carrying capacity.. mostly through food plotting... if you look at the early programs... supplimental food plots were usually additional browse to help deer through the winter or to improve protein levels... not to try and entice more and more deer to the land. If you look at most so called QDM programs they have become huge advertisements for food plotting... I know some of you guys really enjoy it but it was never suppose to be what it has become... I'm not trying to bad mouth food plots or trophy hunting i have and do both.. but i have never swayed from the original concept of what makes qdm such a good idea for the deer.

Edited October 14, 2011 by nyantler

[SteveB]

I am talking about states that have Antler restrictions.

Then you are not talking about states with mandatory qdm.

You are talking about buck management only which is only a small part of qdm.

[hb270deermanager]

I saw this topic and had to reply.I am a big fan of Q.D.M.A.I believe

that this is a broad topic.It includes age,nutrition,habitat,buck to doe

ratio's,genetics etc.Yes its more of a personal responsibility here

in N.Y.I have been practicing this for about 16 yrs on 155 acres of

property my neighbors first were skeptical then jealous.Most still

won't get involved to much work they say.Heres what I have done.

I first opened a couple fields in a central location setup smaller more

secluded openings even a couple corridors like small wood roads.

Doug a small pond in spring fed hollow about 10 ft deep by 24 feet

around.put in 2 small orchards apples and pears.Also places about

20 crab apple trees through out the property.I plant about 15% with

food plots.I trimmed my oak grove a big 8 to 10 acre area for better

acorn production.I set aside about 10 % for sanctuary.That includes

a swampy area behind and to the north of the pond and also included

the oak and apple groves in it.I hunt only for 2.5 or older bucks and we

harvest more does then bucks every yr.I plant exclusively whitetail

institutes products produced solely for deer.Its alot of work and I always

have guys hunting the edges of the property that just wanna shoot deer.

If everyone did something to help it would make a tremendous impact.

I feel if the state would do 2 things.One is find a way to let our buck

population mature and 2 educate the states hunting population to

the rewards of Q.D.M.A.I think then things would start to change abit.

I also believe if landowners would allow hunters more to apply this to

their properties then they would have less crop damage or ornamental

damage.We have to all be alittle more educated and willing to atleast

try somethings to change our states deer population outlook we have a

northern strain of deer in ny that could very well compete with some of

the mid west and northern areas as far as producing record book bucks.

Think about it for a minute.We could do it.

[SteveB]

As an overall plan qdm is great, when only parts of it are isolated (anter size, food plot attracting) the biggest problem qdm faces is most uninformed hunters look at as trophy deer management.

Very true.

But those who are in fact are practicing or support mandatory statewide AR programs often pass it off (intentionally or not) as QDM - like the thread starter. When it fact AR has very little to do with true qdm programs.

[burmjohn]

AR / Antler Restrictions does allow the yearlings to survive and mature, which is part of QDM. Its not just buck management, its herd management. QDM is not just about the antlers and the food plots, its shame it gets that bad rap from those who oppose it.

[nyantler]

The reason AR's are a big part of QDM is because buck age structure is the most screwed up part of most deer herds... and the hardest to get back in check because of the resistance from many hunters to pass on younger bucks.

[Big John]

I am not sure I would call it QDM or not but I pass on any deer that is small, I am not a rack hunter and will take a bigger Doe over a small buck everytime because it means more meat in the freezer....Last season I passed on a buck that was too small and left the season only filling my Doe tag......

[fasteddie]

I think Wegmans even sell free range chickens....lol for about twice the price of normal.

I'd like to visit one of those "boneless chicken" ranches just to see how those birds stand up ! ... ...

[SteveB]

AR / Antler Restrictions does allow the yearlings to survive and mature.

It would not protect 60% of the yearlings in the 3 wmu's around me or in much of central and western ny.

I oppose it in my area for this reason. There is support here for it from many who think that because it may help in other areas, then we should have it here when the facts say otherwise.

[rutstrut]

Hb270deermanger you said it all.

[rutstrut]

Let them go so they will grow

[dave6x6]

This may sound like a contradiction to some who have debated the food plot issues with me but it's really not ..I do practice qdma and i do it for the benefits it brings to the hunting and particularly to the hunting of big bucks. My possition is different because in my opinion, you can put all the food plots in you want but it may not help your hunting one bit if you don't couple it with a sound , multi-pronged qdm program. Although food plots are a part of most qdm plans, it doesn't have to be for every piece of property. And Its benifits to the hunting are not nearly as significant as the rest of the plans that people have already talked about. I encourage every hunter i talk to to at least let the small bucks walk and appreciate the state encouraging it but i don't think it should be forced on NY hunters. By the way, Today was one of the most miserable opening days in recent memory and yet i saw 8 bucks and 5 does, all in bow range. Oh and the bucks were sniffin every doe the saw including the 3.5yr olds. Thats what qdm will do on a well balanced piece of property.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Dave your program must be working weli,like someones real close to me. I dont really care about the killing.Yes taking a mature buck is awesome but to me when i go sit in a stand or watch,I expect to see deer every sitting.Might sound selfesh but if your program and herd are in good shape and working,you should see deer 9 times out of 10..Sucks going hunting and not atleast see what your hunting!!

[dave6x6]

Yea that does suck.. Goin' fishin' and not catching anything comes in a close second. My business partner had a vision for his properties, I came on board to help manage his properties as well as my families, and now it's at a point were not only do we expect to see deer, but we expect that every sit will be successsful. Today , no blood was spilled but on that success scale, it was way up there. Challenging conditions, deer sightings and lots learned for the future.

[SteveB]

Dave - great post! I am 100% for the education and encouragement of true qdm principals thru positive persuasion and example.

But will speak out against misguided attempts to force bits and peices selectively pulled from those principals, especially when they are now trying to do end arounds by using the legislative process.

[Larry]

Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

[outdoorstom]

I agree QDM can go wrong if you take too many does. It definitely sounds like that farmer did. I can say based on my own experience, that QDM does in fact work. I've been practicing all elements of it on my small property (115 acres) for the last 7 years. I've planted nwsg's, had duck ponds dug, tsi work, food plots, planted trees, don't shoot any bucks smaller than 6 pts, and shooting as many does as we legally can. Over the last 4 seasons we've been seeing more and bigger bucks, good rut activity, and overall enjoying a better hunting experience.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Same here,I get 10 dmap's per year for 700 acres but we also have thousands of acres of military instalation land across the road.We take as many does as we can between dmaps,archery,muzzleloading. Even after all of that we still have a good share of does.I still think bucks travel alot more and farther than we give them credit for. We see bucks here that seem to disapear.Anyone that hunts here does a report of such at the farm of what we see and where.We see a mature buck one day and someone hunts the farm about every day and that buck is gone for weeks at a time and then one day someone gets him..I think they roam!!

[nyantler]

Lower deer sightings are not always a bad thing... if a property is over its carrying capacity you will definitely be seeing more deer, but that is not necessarily a good thing for the deer... decreased sightings may in fact be the result of the population getting back to the true carrying capacity of the habitat provided...it's sometimes hard to explain to those that are not up on deer management that it's not suppose to be all about the hunter and whats best for him... it's suppose to be about the deer... as th deer numbers come in balance with the habitat.. you may not see as many deer.. but with a good management program ...the quality of those deer should be much better when you do see them.

[dave6x6]

Another crazy day today on our managed property. 5 bucks. A six chasing a doe, three 3.5 yr olds and then a brute that i only got a glimps of but thats all it took. He has my full attention now. Weekend totals 13 bucks almost half 3.5 and older. 7 does. Before qdm it was 30 does and 5 bucks.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

All the better to have the numbers of animals and quality of animals.When you do the correct things for the habitat and for the critters living on that property.Good things seem to come out in the end!!

[hb270deermanager]

AR is a start its opposed by many in the areas the state has AR.

Its only one step in a Q.D.M.A. program most oppose change.Most

hunters oppose any of these ideas.If 50% of us practices some form

of the programs it would make a difference.As for AR ya it lets the little

one grow another yr.but it doesn't help with less genetically mature bucks.

I shot a big racked 5 pt buck 2 yrs ago in 3J he was 5.5 yrs old he should

have been harvested before that.He actually looked funny I was going to pass

on him but realized that he needed to be harvested.Like ny hunting nut says

Q.D.M.A. is not just about antlers and foodplotd theres so much more involved.

I read a very good story once by wiley marburger called the king of deer a great

story its only art of the equasion but none the less a great book.If you take the time

to research what its all about everyone would relize how much work needs to be

done and how long it takes and thats if everything goes as planned.The state

call implement any program it wants but we the hunting population need to want

it to work and get involved to ensure ithappens and its successful.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

HB I am a little confused by your post. You said it doesn't help with less genetically mature deer. i am not sure what you mean. whether a buck is a fawn or a 10 year old he has the same genetics. Are you talking about inferior genetics? If that is what you meant, That deer could have been very healthy and a very good breeder. He could have been a very productive member fo the herd. If we want, as part of QDMA, to harvest undesirable racks to promote the "perfect racks" doesn't that feed right into the thought the program is all about racks?

[nyantler]

Culver.. its not so much about perfect racks... but it is about normal.. something is not right somewhere in the equation if an old buck isn't at least sporting something normal on his head.. by normal I don't mean necessarily big antlers but something you would expect a healthy deer to have... genetics really only plays a small part in rack size.. it plays a bigger part in rack configuration... usually deformed or dwarfed racks in mature bucks are usually a product of poor nutrition or lack of minerals.. or some other factor maybe even injury to the pedicle. It could be possible that he is a genetic mutant ... but in a balanced herd with other older healthy bucks he probably wouldn't be doing much breeding anyway... be hard for him to establish dominace without the rack to back it up. I'm not a big believer in culling bucks because of their rack size or configuration... I'm sure those that are managing deer for the ultimate rack might not like that belief.