Gun Control Bill Headed To The Senate

[Grouse]

Everything that has been presented so far.  And add this:  Schumer wants to end the filibuster to ram it through.  But....

A trip down memory lane: "[The legislative filibuster] is the most important distinction between the Senate and the House. Without the 60-vote threshold for legislation, the Senate becomes a majoritarian institution like the House. ... No senator would like to see this happen." —Senate Democrat Leader Chuck Schumer on April 7, 2017

Leftists gun control is about CONTROL.  Try to make them understand that and what they stand to lose if they succeed.

[Five Seasons]

53 minutes ago, Grouse said:

This is about creating a gun registry to track guns of the American people. There is no way to implement what the Democrats are trying to implement without doing that.

There is nothing in this bill concerning a registry or insurance as you previously alluded to. You're spreading false information which is what hurts us the most when we try and defend our rights to bear arms.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Belo

[Grouse]

Just now, Belo said:

There is nothing in this bill concerning a registry. 

How can they track private gun sales unless every gun is registered?  They don't need to put it in the bill, it happens by default.  That's the whole plan.  This has been presented to the American people by many who criticize this bill.

[Five Seasons]

9 minutes ago, Northcountryman said:

Well , this is an informal discussion among Like minded ( well mostly anyway) individuals , but I agree with you . Arguments can and should be passionate and thought provoking , but also cogent . If you had to argue against the passage of this bill then, what would you say in your argument ? 

I think I shared a little earlier that I'm not necessarily opposed to more thorough background checks or closing the loophole allowing the private sale of firearms without background checks. In theory, should these additional measures work, less criminals would have access to firearms.

And that's where my argument and rebuttal builds. It's theory only. Decades of data show us that gun violence is generally committed with illegal firearms (excluding suicides)*. That gun control laws don't do much of anything at all to curb violence and only hurt law abiding citizens like you and I. For example, my AR is now borderline dangerous because I can't remove my mag in the event of a double feed. Yet a criminal can still obtain and purchase one, just like a criminal would obtain illegal drugs.

This law makes many white suburban moms feel better. Like they've done something to stop school shootings. And that's what the democratic party is all about. Feelings. Kids are still in cages and that kid in Atlanta could still have bought a gun even with these rules in place. 

I'd close with this. For sure this bill may be prevent some firearms from reaching the hands of those with bad intentions, but those truly bent on carnage will find a way. So all we're doing is adding more cost and redtape to a government already buried in debt.

*always call out the bs gun death statistics that include suicides btw. The anti's love these stats and always includes them in their gun violence data.

[Five Seasons]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How can they track private gun sales unless every gun is registered?  They don't need to put it in the bill, it happens by default.  That's the whole plan.  This has been presented to the American people by many who criticize this bill.

is there a registry now for the guns we've bought through FFL's? No. No there isn't. Please try harder.

 

anti and pro references

https://giffords.org/lawcenter/gun-laws/policy-areas/owner-responsibilities/registration/#:~:text=There is no comprehensive national,of firearms or firearm owners.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/national-gun-registry/

Edited March 17, 2021 by Belo

[Grouse]

If you believe the paperwork you fill out when you buy a firearm is completely destroyed and no records are electronically maintained illegally by the federal government, you are being naive.

Besides, how would they check the sale of private firearms you own without recording their sales to you from someone else and without the serial #'s and make/model of the gun on file?  How can the private sale idea work without it?

Edited March 17, 2021 by Grouse

[diplomat019]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

If you believe the paperwork you fill out when you buy a firearm is completely destroyed and no records are electronically maintained illegally by the federal government, you are being naive.

Besides, how would they check the sale of private firearms you own without recording their sales to you from someone else and without the serial #'s and make/model of the gun on file?  How can the private sale idea work without it?

So with that being said, we already have a gun registry. Correct?  If that’s true why is anyone still discussing this topic? 

[Grouse]

Belo, read info on pages 5 through 8.  If this law passes, full gun registration will be needed for it to work.  It's next.

https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1507342/nij-gun-policy-memo.pdf

 

"The challenge to implementing this more broadly is that most states do not have a registry of firearm ownership. Currently NICS background checks are destroyed within 24 hours. Some states maintain registration of all firearms. Gun registration aims to 1) increase owner responsibility by directly connecting an owner with a gun, 2) improve law enforcement’s ability to retrieve guns from owners prohibited from possessing firearms. Gun registration also allows for the monitoring of multiple gun purchases in a short period of time"

Edited March 17, 2021 by Grouse

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, diplomat019 said:

So with that being said, we already have a gun registry. Correct?  If that’s true why is anyone still discussing this topic? 

Because it's illegal for it to exist at this time.  The Dems plan to change that after this bill passes, saying it's required for the bill to work.

[Steuben Jerry]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

The Dems plan to change that after this bill passes

I'm not disputing the probability but can you back this up?

[Grouse]

I can, but not right now.  Doubt it at your own demise.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

14 minutes ago, diplomat019 said:

So with that being said, we already have a gun registry. Correct?  If that’s true why is anyone still discussing this topic? 

There is no doubt in my mind there is a registry. But it only encompasses the firearms bought through FFL's. It does not currently track the sales or previously "undocumented" (yeah that was on purpose) firearms that were sold by dealers prior tot he law requiring it and any subsequent sale between private citizens. This is a HUGE number of firearms and they really have no idea how many are really out there. 

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

I'm not disputing the probability but can you back this up?

Quick one

https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/what-the-universal-background-check-bill-means-for-gun-owners?fbclid=IwAR3GYjfupaQ25Sd0zhg63PztxQFWWK-QAVLPKuLzzM-wvyFDzC5BJ_9aeww

“Government Watch List”
Second Amendment advocates and gun industry representatives worry that H.R. 8 will be used in the future to justify a national gun registry. While the bill does not establish such a registry, Mark Oliva of the National Shooting Sports Foundation warns of a slippery slope towards gun confiscation.

“This bill doesn’t work without a national gun registry,” he told MeatEater. “And a registry is the first step towards confiscation.”

Oliva argues that even hunters who do not purchase firearms in private transactions or hunt with semi-automatic rifles should be concerned about H.R. 8. For the federal government to enforce universal background checks, regulators will need to establish a database listing which firearms were sold when and to whom.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Grouse

[Steuben Jerry]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Quick one

https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/what-the-universal-background-check-bill-means-for-gun-owners?fbclid=IwAR3GYjfupaQ25Sd0zhg63PztxQFWWK-QAVLPKuLzzM-wvyFDzC5BJ_9aeww

“Government Watch List”
Second Amendment advocates and gun industry representatives worry that H.R. 8 will be used in the future to justify a national gun registry. While the bill does not establish such a registry, Mark Oliva of the National Shooting Sports Foundation warns of a slippery slope towards gun confiscation.

“This bill doesn’t work without a national gun registry,” he told MeatEater. “And a registry is the first step towards confiscation.”

Oliva argues that even hunters who do not purchase firearms in private transactions or hunt with semi-automatic rifles should be concerned about H.R. 8. For the federal government to enforce universal background checks, regulators will need to establish a database listing which firearms were sold when and to whom.

That's a private citizen speculating about it to another private citizen. Again, I don't dispute your assertation at all, but if I'm citing a source to an anti-gunner to back up my argument, I'm going to get laughed at if I cite a meateater podcast.

[Steuben Jerry]

28 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Doubt it at your own demise.

Don't paint me with that brush, I already told you - twice - that I don't dispute it.

[Dinsdale]

45 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

There is no doubt in my mind there is a registry. But it only encompasses the firearms bought through FFL's. It does not currently track the sales or previously "undocumented" (yeah that was on purpose) firearms that were sold by dealers prior tot he law requiring it and any subsequent sale between private citizens. This is a HUGE number of firearms and they really have no idea how many are really out there. 

I agree, there is at least a partial data base. I have mentioned it here before when travelling with firearms they (customs) have specifically known about previous travels and details of serial numbers not only of what I was getting paperwork for, but other firearms that I owned.

I've never taken it too task, I just want to go on my trip, but it was eye opening.

They do look for a stolen gun report but how exactly  does this tie into another database? It had to for the officer to rattle off the what and where's  of those rifles. There's no mistaking asking about a Blaser, i own several, there was only a couple thousand in the US at the initial use/paperwork , but this was 8 years later. She knew of the new rifle and serial number, but it had only gone through ffl, never customs.

I dont for a minute think anything ffl is destroyed, it's all floating around out there.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Dinsdale

[Dinsdale]

26 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

That's a private citizen speculating about it to another private citizen. Again, I don't dispute your assertation at all, but if I'm citing a source to an anti-gunner to back up my argument, I'm going to get laughed at if I cite a meateater podcast.

Should be able to find a NSSF statement on this. I know a staffer fairly connected and I consider that group as one of the good guys.

They schmooze and lobby as that's how you have to play the game, but I doubt you'll see many scandals coming from them.

[Grouse]

44 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

That's a private citizen speculating about it to another private citizen. Again, I don't dispute your assertation at all, but if I'm citing a source to an anti-gunner to back up my argument, I'm going to get laughed at if I cite a meateater podcast.

Did you bother to read that article?  Do 2nd Amendment advocates and Mark Oliva of the NSSF have any credibility with you?  I firmly believe we have the onerous gun laws we currently have because too many gun owners doubt the governments intent to take your guns away.  They obviously have not been paying attention since 1968.  It's incremental and unending.  Have you noticed how the left is now saying "White Supremacy" is responsible for most gun violence and is a big threat?  Who do you think the left considers a White Supremacist?

 

“Government WatchList”
Second Amendment advocates and gun industry representatives worry that H.R. 8 will be used in the future to justify a national gun registry. While the bill does not establish such a registry, Mark Oliva of the National Shooting Sports Foundation warns of a slippery slope towards gun confiscation.

[Grouse]

Universal gun registration will be demanded to fix what will be called the "Universal Background Check Loophole".

Since December 2012, gun control supporters have “demanded”[42] background checks on all private transfers of all firearms, regardless of location. And in 2013, Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) introduced legislation to eliminate the requirement that the FBI destroy the records of approved NICS checks within 24 hours.[43]Also in 2013, the Department of Justice said that background checks on all firearm transfers “depends on . . . requiring gun registration.”[44]NICS would become a registry of firearm transfers if all firearms transfers were subject to NICS checks and the FBI retained records of approved checks indefinitely, both of which gun control supporters have proposed, and such records included information currently maintained on federal Form 4473, documenting the identity of the firearm purchaser and the make, model and serial number of the firearm transferred. Over time, as people sell or bequeath their firearms, a registry of firearm transfers would become a registry of firearms possessed. 

[Steuben Jerry]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Did you bother to read that article?  Do 2nd Amendment advocates and Mark Oliva of the NSSF have any credibility with you?  I firmly believe we have the onerous gun laws we currently have because too many gun owners doubt the governments intent to take your guns away.  They obviously have not been paying attention since 1968.  It's incremental and unending.  Have you noticed how the left is now saying "White Supremacy" is responsible for most gun violence and is a big threat?  Who do you think the left considers a White Supremacist?

 

“Government WatchList”
Second Amendment advocates and gun industry representatives worry that H.R. 8 will be used in the future to justify a national gun registry. While the bill does not establish such a registry, Mark Oliva of the National Shooting Sports Foundation warns of a slippery slope towards gun confiscation.

Yes I did. I was looking for proof of your attestation that "The Dems plan to change that after this bill passes".

I was looking for a fact that a maybe a ranking Dem may have leaked this or some other credible source. Using the NSSF in an argument with an anti-gunner isn't any better than citing the NRA.

Grouse, I'm not your enemy. 

[Grouse]

Registration is a concern because states have used it to retroactively decide that certain legally purchased firearms are now naughty and must be confiscated without compensation or Due Process (also a violation of the Constitution). This has happened in California, New York, Illinois, and DC. They’ve said you can keep your naughty firearm as long as you register it, and then later changed their minds and used the registry to confiscate the firearms. This is why people often don’t comply with registration laws. If the states are willing to trick people like that, what makes you think the federal government won’t?

Like I said prior, the lack of a database will become the "Universal Background Check loophole" in the future and will be demanded by gun grabbers.

Trying to convince a person who has absolutely no idea about the history of gun control is futile.  No amount of proof will counter act the brainwashing they have suffered.  What IS needed, is for all gun owners to understand and believe what is going on and demand elected officials fight it and NEVER vote for any politician that won't, even if they promise to make weed legal.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Grouse

[Grouse]

Here it comes......

https://nagr.org/2021/1337-p.aspx?pid=fb7a&fbclid=IwAR1V9--UlGPyoGksJJ7ShK0wQY8UPYiatGrF-heuXPy2QcVZ6WGJa0-Gmvo

Edited March 17, 2021 by Grouse

[Steve D]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

Like I said prior, the lack of a database will become the "Universal Background Check loophole" in the future and will be demanded by gun grabbers.

Not trying to argue or dispute but while they may not have a database for ALL the guns out there you can be sure there is one on the majority of guns legally sold by dealers since background checks started. Besides that I believe gun dealers are required to record and report who their sales are made to.

 What they the (government) fail to comprehend is their emphasis should be the illegal unregister guns that are being used to commit murders & crimes.

 Unfortunately incidents like yesterday with a legally purchased gun will not help our  cause and will only enforce their argument that we need more laws.

Georgia spa shootings: Suspect confesses, claims he was not racially motivated, sheriff says (wsbtv.com)

[9jNYstarkOH]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

If you believe the paperwork you fill out when you buy a firearm is completely destroyed and no records are electronically maintained illegally by the federal government, you are being naive.

Besides, how would they check the sale of private firearms you own without recording their sales to you from someone else and without the serial #'s and make/model of the gun on file?  How can the private sale idea work without it?

Ok so my family owns a gun shop with that I know exactly how this works. You fill out the 4473 gun data is added to 4473 the FFL processes the nics check and at that time only gun information filed  is if it is a long gun, pistol or receiver. The 4473 hard copy is than filed at the FFL and remains filed there. If the FFL was to close than the 4473’s would be sent to a processing center in West Virginia where the paper 4473’s are converted to micro film is what they are told. At this time would be the opportunity to make a registry as it is the first time the ATF has the gun data. Note there is a secret form filled out if you buy 2 pistols within 5 days at the same FFL that is sent to local police and ATF with gun data. Not sure about NY but in Ohio a FFL can take a ccw permit and a filled out 4473 and not send it in for a nics check this is federally legal but not allowed by all states.

Edited March 18, 2021 by 9jNYstarkOH

[Steve D]

5 minutes ago, 9jNYstarkOH said:

Not sure about NY but in Ohio a FFL can take a ccw permit and a filled out 4473 and not send it in for a nics check this is federally legal but not allowed by all states.

That won't fly here in NY. You have to show the permit to make the purchase. Take the purchase slip(not the gun)to your county clerk with your permit that amends your permit and gives you a slip with the county clerk seal on it to take back to the gun dealer to show it has been registered before they will turn it over. A royal pain especially if you bought it from somewhere on the other side of the state. The other option is to buy, get a copy of the purchase, take that to your county clerk, get a copy of the clerk paper, to the place where you made the purchase and have them send it to a FFL near you. You would also have to provide the seller with a copy of the FFL where it would be sent. Once your designated FFL gets it and you show them your permit and slip from the county you can take it home.

 Adds about $100-$150 to the price of the gun for shipping and FFL fees.