arrow rest.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thanks Dom

[NFA-ADK]

No skippy is only for you WNYBuck, you started it so I will only keep it with you ok Skippy. Since I stupped to your level of insults I will try to go slow and explain to you what I am talking about so your little brain can understand.

If you use a bow that shoots 200 fps and misjudge by one pin you will miss your target at 60 yards. With a fast bow you will only hit about a few inches off. And yes this does have to do with arrow drop, guese what a arrow that drops 2-5 feet in a 10 yard distance is going to be much harder to estimate making faster shooting bows more accurate at long distance, I never said anything about a stationary target... This is at varying ranges...

Anyone can shoot a bow at long distance yet figuring out and calculations with distance angle and drop is what makes a bow more accurate at long distance at varied angles and no set distance. No range finder used...

Bet when you ask one of those sharp shooters to use a bow that is 100 FPS slower they will laugh in you FACE... Why, ask them... I am sure they will explain it to you all why fps matters...

In so far as hitting a target from a tree stand at 30 yards. LOL funny that is the equivelant of shooting 10 yards so your groups are not that impressive... Wonder if I can get that grouping lol... You are great!!! Again I will be out at the 3d shoot to explain further if anyone is really interested...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

In so far as hitting a target from a tree stand at 30 yards. LOL funny that is the equivelant of shooting 10 yards so your groups are not that impressive... Wonder if I can get that grouping lol... You are great!!! Again I will be out at the 3d shoot to explain further if anyone is really interested...

Oh I gotta hear you explaing this further. Let's have it Mr. Physics Wizz

[Doewhacker]

Bet when you ask one of those sharp shooters to use a bow that is 100 FPS slower they will laugh in you FACE... Why, ask them... I am sure they will explain it to you all why fps matters...

Or they will adjust the sight and still be a good shot.

[Doc]

In so far as hitting a target from a tree stand at 30 yards. LOL funny that is the equivelant of shooting 10 yards so your groups are not that impressive...

Huh????

[WNYBuckHunter]

No skippy is only for you WNYBuck, you started it so I will only keep it with you ok Skippy. Since I stupped to your level of insults I will try to go slow and explain to you what I am talking about so your little brain can understand.

If you use a bow that shoots 200 fps and misjudge by one pin you will miss your target at 60 yards. With a fast bow you will only hit about a few inches off. And yes this does have to do with arrow drop, guese what a arrow that drops 2-5 feet in a 10 yard distance is going to be much harder to estimate making faster shooting bows more accurate at long distance, I never said anything about a stationary target... This is at varying ranges...

Anyone can shoot a bow at long distance yet figuring out and calculations with distance angle and drop is what makes a bow more accurate at long distance at varied angles and no set distance. No range finder used...

Bet when you ask one of those sharp shooters to use a bow that is 100 FPS slower they will laugh in you FACE... Why, ask them... I am sure they will explain it to you all why fps matters...

In so far as hitting a target from a tree stand at 30 yards. LOL funny that is the equivelant of shooting 10 yards so your groups are not that impressive... Wonder if I can get that grouping lol... You are great!!! Again I will be out at the 3d shoot to explain further if anyone is really interested...

If you misjudge and use the wrong pin, you are going to miss your intended target, whether it be 6 inches or 10 inches, its a miss. A slow bow that hits a target with a specific pin at 60 yards is just as accurate as a faster bow hitting a target at 60 yards. I suggest you read up on what accurate means if you dont understand. Also, you still havent shown how the process of calculating for one speed is different from another other than the numbers themselves. For example, 2+2 is just as easy to calculate as 9+9. I wont expect you to be able to wrap your brain around that concept though, there doesnt seem to be enough grey matter to accomplish it.

As far as 30 yards equalling 10, i too am seriously interested in how you come up with that one. If i ranged it from the bottom of the tree, on flat ground, it still equals 30 yards when im up in the tree there Einstein.

As far as what you said, you basically said that a drop away rest is more accurate than a Whisker Biscuit because you shoot faster from it. A Whisker Biscuit costs 2 - 3 fps, again, please tell me how much that is honestly going to affect anything.

[ncountry]

I have had good luck with my Vapor trail ProV dopaway rest..Very easy to set up and has containment. Is it any more accurate or better than a Wb? I cannot shoot well enough to tell. This winter , my 5 spot average is hovering around 290...One of my friends still shoots a wb and his is around 290+. He always seems to shoot just that much better,dam him..lol. I just had try one of these newfangled rests and see what all the hype was about. As long as you have good follow through (not grabbing or torquing the grip during the shot) Most people would be well served with a wb. As far as the faster vs slower bow debate goes. Imo a faster bow is a little more forgiving ,at longer hunting distances , of yardage judgements. With my old slow bow a guess of 35 yds when the deer was actually at 38 resulted in a clean miss. with my new bow ~ 40+fps faster It would result in a dead deer. I only hunt with 1 pin. With my old bow I had a maximum of 31 paces that I could aim at the center of kill zone and kill the deer.With the faster bow I now have a maximum distance of 38 paces. Steps ,not yards,I have short legs....So is the faster bow more accurate?? No..But it is easier to hit a given target at longer range.

[wooffer]

I use a QAD Ultra Rest and you are right that a faster bow will shoot flater over longer distances and as a result will make it easier to hit your target more quickly. It takes the guess work out of "what distance am I" and which pin do I need.

Not really related to this line of talk but have you ever seen eastons kinetic energy calculator?

http://eastonarchery.com/store/kinetic_calculator

[sweet old bill]

I would like to say that arrow speed does make for accuracy as well and a lot of times poor accuracy. Speed gives you a flatter shot process.

I had a bow shop for years and see guys come in that wanted the fastest setup they could get out of a bow, they would buy and get the setup but then could not handle the speed. Why instead of missing by a inch they would sometimes miss by a foot.

I always would suggest setting the bow up not for speed but for the most user friendly setup, then it would be up to the archer thru working on form. In a lot of cases the archers get over bowed, they try to handle 70 lbs and could do a lot better at 60 lbs peak draw weight.

The other part is what called down range punch thru, if you shoot a very low weight arrow you get speed, but if the weight of the arrow is on the higher side you get punch thru. As told to me by a easton rep, it like I throw a pinpong ball at 300 ft per sec, or a baseball at 230 FPS. the 230 will push thru the target down range at a much higher % . Look at the trad archers and see if they want super light arrows or heavy arrows. You may have a higher arch in the arrow getting to the target but will have more punch.

When you see the top shooters you will find they all have one thing in common they shoot a lot and if you talk to them they work on form, draw cycle and follow thru.

Now at 70 years young I can only handle a bow in the to 60 lb range, but at 56 lbs the new bows seem to have the speed of the bows in the 90's that I use to shoot at 70 lbs peak weight. I also think that I have not had one arrow no got thru a deer I shot in a very long time, maybe it is due to I also do not shoot over 25 to 30 yards at the most. But it sure seems the new Bh's seems to fly thru a deer like a hot rod thru butter....

[ncountry]

All good points,Bill. If I could not shoot my bow accurately I would definitely be looking for a more forgiving set-up. I know ,at least in my experience , many of the newer bow are shooting a lot faster and just as accurate as the bows they are replacing. I have debated weather to go with a heavier arrow , but at least on deer size game I have only ever had 2 arrows not blast through. One was in the spine from a really sharp treestand shot.Another was a double shoulder hit. The later one was last year on my ten point .The arrow blasted through 1st shoulder blade and barely stuck through the opposite shoulder blade at 30 yds. I agree on the poundage also,I can pull 80#+ but it is not any fun. I prefer to hunt with 65#. I can sit on my arse on the ground and pull back slow in close quarters.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have had good luck with my Vapor trail ProV dopaway rest..Very easy to set up and has containment. Is it any more accurate or better than a Wb? I cannot shoot well enough to tell. This winter , my 5 spot average is hovering around 290...One of my friends still shoots a wb and his is around 290+. He always seems to shoot just that much better,dam him..lol. I just had try one of these newfangled rests and see what all the hype was about. As long as you have good follow through (not grabbing or torquing the grip during the shot) Most people would be well served with a wb. As far as the faster vs slower bow debate goes. Imo a faster bow is a little more forgiving ,at longer hunting distances , of yardage judgements. With my old slow bow a guess of 35 yds when the deer was actually at 38 resulted in a clean miss. with my new bow ~ 40+fps faster It would result in a dead deer. I only hunt with 1 pin. With my old bow I had a maximum of 31 paces that I could aim at the center of kill zone and kill the deer.With the faster bow I now have a maximum distance of 38 paces. Steps ,not yards,I have short legs....So is the faster bow more accurate?? No..But it is easier to hit a given target at longer range.

speed...speed ...speed. Bill hit it right on the head. you could have a slower bow that actually shoots flatter if the arrow set up was lighter. The point I ws trying to makeis....it is all about practice. I don't care if you are parcticing with a 200 fps or a 400 fps bow. if you know your set up and practice outside of what your normal hunting distances will be you will be better served. In regards to the original postings.....a 2-5 fps drop in a bow will not drastically change ones ability to make a shot assuming you are set up for that speed and weights.

[Doc]

I would like to say that arrow speed does make for accuracy as well and a lot of times poor accuracy. Speed gives you a flatter shot process.

I had a bow shop for years and see guys come in that wanted the fastest setup they could get out of a bow, they would buy and get the setup but then could not handle the speed. Why instead of missing by a inch they would sometimes miss by a foot.

I always would suggest setting the bow up not for speed but for the most user friendly setup, then it would be up to the archer thru working on form. In a lot of cases the archers get over bowed, they try to handle 70 lbs and could do a lot better at 60 lbs peak draw weight.

The other part is what called down range punch thru, if you shoot a very low weight arrow you get speed, but if the weight of the arrow is on the higher side you get punch thru. As told to me by a easton rep, it like I throw a pinpong ball at 300 ft per sec, or a baseball at 230 FPS. the 230 will push thru the target down range at a much higher % . Look at the trad archers and see if they want super light arrows or heavy arrows. You may have a higher arch in the arrow getting to the target but will have more punch.

When you see the top shooters you will find they all have one thing in common they shoot a lot and if you talk to them they work on form, draw cycle and follow thru.

Now at 70 years young I can only handle a bow in the to 60 lb range, but at 56 lbs the new bows seem to have the speed of the bows in the 90's that I use to shoot at 70 lbs peak weight. I also think that I have not had one arrow no got thru a deer I shot in a very long time, maybe it is due to I also do not shoot over 25 to 30 yards at the most. But it sure seems the new Bh's seems to fly thru a deer like a hot rod thru butter....

Good reply Bill. Arrow speed (and flat trajectory) are wonderful things as long as it is achieved in the right way. Accuracy related to speed is only relative to distance mis-judgement and that's the end of it. Speed does not improve form or make a bow and arrow set-up more forgiving of shot or form errors. In fact, a whole lot of shot and form errors can be found in the squirrelly set-ups and touchy equipment that guys use trying to squeeze that last FPS out of their equipment. There generally is nothing more reliable and repetitive than a good old heavy arrow lumbering its way down to the target. There are a whole lot of shooting hiccups that a heavy arrow can absorb without flight disruption.

Your other point about guys winding up over-bowed in their quest for speed is a good one. I have seen that one a lot. I have seen guys shaking and breaking out in a sweat just trying to draw their bow past the peak of the force-draw curve. Ever watch these guys that point the bow to the sky and put every ounce of their body into just drawing the bow? They do everything but holler out a karate yell .... lol. And then when they get it drawn, their steadiness is shot. Yes, they have a very fast set up and their arrow misses the mark ....... very quickly. So to say that speed equates to accuracy is not exactly true. It only flattens trajectory, and often that takes the place of pulling off a good shot.

[ncountry]

speed...speed ...speed. Bill hit it right on the head. you could have a slower bow that actually shoots flatter if the arrow set up was lighter. The point I ws trying to makeis....it is all about practice. I don't care if you are parcticing with a 200 fps or a 400 fps bow. if you know your set up and practice outside of what your normal hunting distances will be you will be better served. In regards to the original postings.....a 2-5 fps drop in a bow will not drastically change ones ability to make a shot assuming you are set up for that speed and weights.

Correct.... There is no better tool to improve ones abilities than practice.

2-5 fps will not make a discernible difference in trajectory

20 -30fps will.

I do not know about others. But I am far from perfect, esp under the pressure of a buck popping out of the brush ~30 yds away. I know under my set-up (that I practice with a lot)that a miss judgement of a few yards either way will not result in a missed deer. It is a win win.If my setup was finicky and inaccurate I would change my tune.Like I said before I cannot shoot a perfect 300 yet but I do not believe it is the bows fault it is all about practice.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

2-5 fps will not make a discernible difference in trajectory

20 -30fps will.

If you have a deer inside 30 yards and have two bows in your stand. everything is identical except one is set so it is 30 fps slower. Is that going to result in a missed or worse yet wounded deer? Now if we are talking about pushing to hunting shot in the 40-60 yard distances I can see where that 20-30 would make a significant difference in trajectory. I would also say that if shots in those distances are attempted the shooter would have the parctice/ability and equipment to pull it off. Some one that practiced the added drop will be understood and second nature. I honestly believe the 2 biggest mistakes made by bow hunters is in the distance estimation and their ability estimation...lol

[Doc]

I'm a "30 yard max" shooter myself, and really I try to keep my shots within 20 yards and am able to do so just about all the time. I also use a rangefinder. Frankly I don't worry about trajectory at all. It's all built into the setting of my sight pins. So I could be shooting some ungodly heavy poundage bow and the lightest arrows possible and the only difference I would see would be shorter practice sessions due to fatigue, and some squirrelly arrow that might hopefully hit what I was aiming at....lol. I think it often gets forgotten that bowhunting is an up close and personal kind of hunting. So I guess I have a bit of a different perspective on this "trajectory vs. accuracy" spin-off on this topic. I'm not sure how the thread got pushed into this direction, but I think it has evolved into a pretty interesting subject.

[WNYBuckHunter]

My whole point in this thread is that speed will not affect accuracy, it will only affect how much you miss by because the arrow flys flatter. Therefore the claim that a WB is less accurate because it slows your arrow down is false. Also, the statement that a slower bow is less accurate is also false. Shooters are accurate, not bows.

I will say though, a WB will undoubtedly affect your accuracy if your form is out of whack because the arrow is in contact with the rest for a longer duration. That is one of the reasons that drop away rests were developed in the first place. To be a little more forgiving to those with poor form.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

To be a little more forgiving to those with poor form.

chalk me up as a poor form guy...I love mine...lol

[ncountry]

I am just stating my experience. Maybe it is different for others. Shooting a target in my yard at known distances is fairly easy. Judging distance is one of the harder things to master in archery. What I am saying is that if a person limits himself/herself to 30 yds or less a faster bow takes all the guess work out . You can sight in your bow to be a few inches high at 20 and it will be a few inches low at 30. I do not need to know where 10,20 yds is.Picture shooting down a 6"pipe to your kill zone.Much like one does zeroing a rifle at 150 yds .

[NFA-ADK]

So if a faster bow is not more accurate then why do all the pro archers like Rodger Willet Jr. use bows that shoot around 300fps which is FAST? Ask them why they don't shoot a more forgiving slower FPS bow... Because speed makes the arrow go down ranger,

1)Faster

2)less time in the air for wind to take effect, causing improved accuracy da...

3)Plain and simple if a arrow drops 3 feet in the last 5 feet of its trajectory it will be less accurate plain and simple. EX. If you are off about a 1/4 inch low with a slow bow it will equate to a much lower hit than with a faster bow at the same misjudgement...AT LONG DISTANCE!

In so far as a bow shooting from a tree stand at 30 yards... Well unless the deer is on the same level as your stand you are shooting down hill. When shooting downhill or at lets say 45deg angle your arrow has much less drop. So shooting a 30 yard shot from a tree stand at a 45deg. angle is the equivelant of shooting a 10 yard shoot due to less gravitional pull... Or mabe your tree stand is only 2 feet off the ground in that case sure 30 yards is 30 yards... Or mabe you are up 30 yards and shooting straight down equaling no drop at all... Point is when shooting down hill gravity takes less effect. I have about a 37 yard downhill shot at my range that I use a 15 (low)yardage estimate to hit center mass... Again depends on angle... Other factors in speed of arrow and wieght take effect too, this is just a estimate and will change depending on those factors, yet with my bow for a 30 yard tree stand shot I use my 10 yard pin and nail it...

So accourding to what you are all saying a traditional bow that shoots very slow should be just as accurate at 40 yards as I am with my compound at 40 yards sure right I believe you but my tommy gun don't!!! And yes this was about long distance shooting, I never said anything about a stationary target. So after you all get your bow's sighted in at 40-60-80 yards we will have a shooting competition and see if the faster bows get better accuracy... No standard yardage. Wonder who will estimate better and have better accuracy... Required to do: 2 bows- 1 that shoots 100 fps slower...

Will any bow set up at long distance hit the stationary target, yes. But a faster bow will be more accurate at long distance with estimating target distance, and target speed. Again a trajectory that drops more than 4-5 feet at it's max shooting distance will have reduced accuracy at that distance plain and simple. If you pull back on the string and do not hold the same exact pull length on the bow with a slower trajectory you might not even reach the target, yet you would not even notice this with a fast trajectory... And yes I know this has to do with form...

I have my bow set up with a 40yard pin at roughly 250 fps how far above a target do I need to aim to hit a 80 yard shot?

If I had a bow that shoot 100 fps faster how far above a 40 yard pin would I have to aim to hit the 80 yard target?

Now after getting both sighted in at 80 yards which is easyer to figure out where to aim at 70 yards?

The slower bow will have a 3-5 or more foot window where as the faster bow will have a say 1-2 ft max window EST... Making estimates at differant ranges easyer to figure out on the fly... And that is why I consider a faster shooting arrow more effective at long distance shooting.

PS: After we do the 60-80yard shots we will go extreme long distance and see who can hit the target at 100 yards with the same 2 bows, wonder wich will be easyer to calculate? When all is said and done I will do a Accuracy report for all of you. Now where is there a range with over 100 yards availible, mine is maxed at 80 yards... And I dont think thrill of the hunt has that distance or high enough roof to shoot a slow bow that far.

[Doewhacker]

We get it, you still don't understand accuracy vs forgiveness of equipment.

[Doewhacker]

"In so far as a bow shooting from a tree stand at 30 yards... Well unless the deer is on the same level as your stand you are shooting down hill. When shooting downhill or at lets say 45deg angle your arrow has much less drop. So shooting a 30 yard shot from a tree stand at a 45deg"

Do you have any idea how far up a tree you will have to be to make this true?

"Point is when shooting down hill gravity takes less effect." Wrong, gravity is a constant in the equation.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

In so far as a bow shooting from a tree stand at 30 yards... Well unless the deer is on the same level as your stand you are shooting down hill. When shooting downhill or at lets say 45deg angle your arrow has much less drop. So shooting a 30 yard shot from a tree stand at a 45deg. angle is the equivelant of shooting a 10 yard shoot due to less gravitional pull... Or mabe your tree stand is only 2 feet off the ground in that case sure 30 yards is 30 yards... Or mabe you are up 30 yards and shooting straight down equaling no drop at all... Point is when shooting down hill gravity takes less effect. I have about a 37 yard downhill shot at my range that I use a 15 (low)yardage estimate to hit center mass... Again depends on angle... Other factors in speed of arrow and wieght take effect too, this is just a estimate and will change depending on those factors, yet with my bow for a 30 yard tree stand shot I use my 10 yard pin and nail it...

First in order to shoot at a 30 yard target at a 45 degree angloe you would have to be 90 feet in the air. That is simple trig and NOT open to debate. you are correct in the actual distance vs the sighting distance is different but your estimation is way off.

been a while for the trig and physics 101 fr me so maybey the younger more enlightened folks can help us out.

your yardage you should be shooting is the yardage from the base of the tree to the target not the yardage measured along the slope from you to the target. if that target is 30 yards from the base of the tree the arrow is having a downward force acting on it for 30 yards of disatnce. It is the same uphill as it is downhill.

[Doewhacker]

Instead of trying to explain the math and physics here is a link

http://www.kingsmountainarchers.org/tips/angle-shots.html

[Doewhacker]

your yardage you should be shooting is the yardage from the base of the tree to the target not the yardage measured along the slope from you to the target. if that target is 30 yards from the base of the tree the arrow is having a downward force acting on it for 30 yards of disatnce. It is the same uphill as it is downhill.

Now what business do a couple of upstate hicks have discussing trig and physics? I better go back to being dumb...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I know..what was I thinking. Every once in a while the survey background and Clarkson education is of some use...lol