Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[steve863]

Hunter Satisfaction increased... Yup

Majority of 1.5's protected from harvest... Yup

Biologic reason for AR... Yup

Proof in PA that AR works long term... Yup

Majority Support... Yup

Hunter satisfaction up?  Biological reasons?  Proof in PA?  Absolutely every one of these points can be refuted.  Did you read the recent PA game commission report where they said: 

" An expanding research base supports the position that antler restrictions will have minimal impact on future antler development of Pennsylvania’s deer herd." 

 

You guys must live in a dreamworld! 

[Fairgame]

This is from my observations where I hunt and fellow hunters.  Yes,  We are seeing alot more bucks walking around.  The opportunity to harvest a legal buck has increased compared to years prior ARs.  Just an example last year I had a group of 5 1 1/2 year old bucks within shooting distance with the bow a couple of times. one 5 one 6 and some sublegal bucks.  I chose not to shoot.  I did get a nice 2-3 year old eight point 3rd day of bow season and let go of another basket eight and a bigger eight than the one I got but I was already tagged out for my buck. This is how the hunting has been the last 2-3 years for me.  The opportunities have been there, its all a matter of making it happen.  The trail camera photos we are getting are amazing compared to years prior all of this.  For me there is no comparison.

[TheHunter]

Hunter satisfaction up?  Biological reasons?  Proof in PA?  Absolutely every one of these points can be refuted.  Did you read the recent PA game commission report where they said: 

" An expanding research base supports the position that antler restrictions will have minimal impact on future antler development of Pennsylvania’s deer herd." 

You guys must live in a dreamworld! 

Antler Restriction Report Card

1. Increase buck survival PASS

2. Change breeding timing NO CHANGE

3. Avoid negative genetic impacts PASS

4. Maintain hunter success rates PASS

5. Increase number of adult bucks PASS

6. Increase age structure of buck harvest PASS

7. Maintain hunter support PASS 

After 6 years, APRs are a success. They have increased buck survival and the buck age structure. They have maintained strong support from hunters. And Pennsylvania hunters are experiencing the same levels of success to which they are accustomed.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CD8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.portal.state.pa.us%2Fportal%2Fserver.pt%2Fdocument%2F715029%2Fhandout_-_biology_and_hunting_-_antler_restrictions_-_v13_20090806_pdf&ei=oWaaTNDyKMK88gak3tyJBQ&usg=AFQjCNHe4JL8ICLoyevKy_U4ShRkXRZhfA&sig2=mkTgaVaq_1tlRLGM_Oeszw

[steve863]

Just because two of you keep harping on how great AR's are, and keep posting completely biased articles from an organization devoted to QDM and AR's, that means it must be all true, right??  And when I was 6 years old I found a quarter under my pillow when I lost my tooth so I should also believe in the tooth fairy?  Don't believe in the tooth fairy or anything you guys are touting I'm afraid!!

[TheHunter]

Steve863, keep attacking us with your immature and ignorant statements.  We are posting facts from the PA PGC , NY DEC, other sources with facts that have done biologic research, and our own experiences.

[TheHunter]

Hunter...looking back at your lengthy post...I can't quote because I am on my phone....either it was you or an article you posted as yours...clearly you are talking about the herd health across the state...clearly...and based on the data I found that shows what a small sample your BIG 77% number represents...I put no faith in any of you assurtions. Basically...all the numbers I see in this thread mean nothing....the data is not available to make a true analysis....you know....keep talking about the veiw of hunters down there and their satisfaction level....if you believe this and your veiw is not based in selfish gratification....why don't you lobby to get a mandatory...full....survey done of all big game license holders in those areas....maybe then 2% won't be speaking for 14000

AR is in my area, the fact is it works fine for me and everyone I am in contact with personally that hunt in my AR zone and other AR Zones. Their satisfaction has increased, the maturity of their harvest have increased, and 1.5's are living to see the next year and beyond.  I do not need any more proof, I see it.  The fact that you don't beleive it works means nothing to me.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Lol....pass....passs.pass...is not analytic research....show me prior...unbiased numbers.  And post unbiased numbers and then you can take a stab at supporting your position. I don't have acess right now but I think I remember seeing on DEC that. While this contributed to more mature bucks they could not find any substantial justification for applying it to more areas. So in my book...you guys want bigger bucks....and the hell with what others want....and don't give me your unsuoported 77% crap....on the point of whether I have a say over there.....even if I don't hunt it......I do...as long as they are appling it to state land I pay for....I still feel you guys are to willing to impose your preference on others

[TheHunter]

Lol....pass....passs.pass...is  not analytic research....show me prior...unbiased numbers.  And post  unbiased numbers and then you can take a stab at supporting your  position.

LOL yourself, if you read that was a direct quote from the PGC in PA, based on years of AR.

.and  don't give me your unsuoported 77% crap....on the point of whether I  have a say over there.....even if I don't hunt it......I do...as long as  they are appling it to state land I pay for....I still feel you guys  are to willing to impose your preference on others

Its 77% of 3H based on a random survey the DEC performed.

You can have all the say you want, you have ZERO hunting experience in my WMU, and no idea what your talking about.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I guess I am just jaded when it comes to any Govt agency feeding me results with no statistical back up. I really don't care if they keep it in your area or not. If you read all my post I have stayed consistent...don't beat your chest and claim overwhelming support based on a 2% sample....don't claim biological benefit for the herd without statistical backup...especially when both ny and pa say none was identified....and don't try to push it on the rest of us....like the cut and paste exerpts you passed off as your own....I would have more respect for a guy that just said...I see it and I like it without misinformation trying to support false claims....if I want that I'll buy a few sham.wows

[burmjohn]

I don't think they are false claims, and most of the stats that he posted he gave links to where that information was obtained from.  I'd like to see a larger sample set of data, I asked the DEC a few weeks back and there is supposed to be a survey done in 2010.  I'd like it to stay in my area, I want to see what happens.  This is our first year in 3H, and I went through the introductions with all the neighbors to get to know eachother.  I actually brought this topic up to each and every one of them.  I found not one person that was not for AR, I even made a trip down to the Narrowsburg lumber store, there was a PA hunter and a local cochecton Hunter.  He asked me what is all this wood for, I said for building some tree stands.  Then we started talking hunting, antler restrictions, etc.  Both were for it, the PA guy went on about the bucks they see now for at least 30 min.  I also had to hit up the local sports / gun shop, I needed some rain gear.  Same goes for him, for it.  Granted my sample size was small, and local to 3H.  I don't get all the negativity from those are no wheres near these WMU's.    Every single of of these guys said not only is the opportunity to harvest a buck greater, the opportunity to harvest a larger more mature buck is greater.  They are seeing more activity on their properties during hunting then ever before.

This year, is my brothers first year hunting.  After seeing the trail cam photo's, coming with me to build stands, learning how to shoot a bow, he is excited to harvest his first deer.  It may be a doe, it may be a buck, who knows.  We are trying to do a little more then what the state mandated AR is, and I talked with him about it first, he was 100% fine with it and understands the potential benefits of allowing the smaller guys to walk.  None the less, I'd like him to take a doe for his first deer (or a buck) to see if he likes the sport, you never know till after a hunters first kill..

[wztirem]

Sham wows, you say that they don't work? I was falsely lead to believe they did. So much for believing in everything I was told to be true and by people who swore by them. Those advertisers are pretty shrewd! Someone must have made a handsome profit!

Oh well, buyer beware.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

John...I respect that opinion...I see conflicting reports but it is not needed in the areas I hunt...when someone says he only refers to his area and post comment for the terrible condition of the state herd....and provides info that is not statistically substantiated.....I have a problem with that....if some one can find before and after numbers...I will believe it then. Call me doubting Thomas....I have to be able to put my fingers in the wound when the Govt is involved

[Larry]

just would like to know why on one topic its 65% in favor and on this topic its 77%

[burmjohn]

I'm 100% sure its not needed in all area's.  I see the bucks friends bring home from some of the WMU's I do not have access to (nor would like to haul to every weekend), its quite amazing

I'd love to see before and after numbers too, I searched all over the DEC site, I put the 2006 - 2009 numbers in my spreadsheet to save in case they move them off the site for the AR zones.  Trying to do my own research and draw my own conclusions.  Like I said I speak from my own experiences and those that I hunt with, its been a fun last few years in 3J, and hopefully they continue in 3H this year.

[Larry]

  Just to let you know that 77%you keep talking about is only 77% of 2.5% of the number of hunters who bought licenses in the area. Sullivan-6786, Ulster-7368 it’s just something else you should mention when you tell people about how 77% are in favor of AR’s. I change the percentages for this topic to match your percentage.

[burmjohn]

Larry,

Not to be a stickler but, Sullivan county is more then just the AR units. So I am not sure your stats are correct.

[Larry]

thats right but sales are not by WMU's only by county and state wide and when the servay was done they use d the counties in which they were located in

[burmjohn]

Ahh Ok. So throwing that stat out there is a bit misleading without clarification.  I wish we could just get an accurate survey, not sure how that would work since just because you buy in Sullivan doesn't  mean you hunt there, and the same goes for other places.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

My initial post with those stated they were by county and didn't totally overlay the wmu's

[Brian12934]

Well folks last year I got the chance to hunt in a restricted hunting area in another state (mo that is where my wife is from who also hunts) and It being my first year bow hunting I seen alottttt of big bucks, I know they have lighter winters and more feed but I feel the restriction helps a bunch on the 10, 12, 14 pointers I seen taken there and I feel we could have the same thing here if we (the legal hunters) try to put an end to the non legal hunters and that would be the largest problem with a restriction, is if it is made law i feel there would be more non legal hunters just so they can say "I killed one"

The restriction in mo was it had to be 4 point on one side

[Doc]

I've seen a whole lot of arguing of who has the best stats and why. And how to interpret all these random studies and charts, etc.  Has anybody here considered a trip into your local regional headquarters, explaining exactly what kind of data you're looking for and why. You might even be able to do it via e-mail, but I think you'll get better results in person. I think there is a lot of data that the DEC gathers that doesn't necessarily make it to public dissemination. You never know what those people may have tucked away in the file cabinets and computer databases. Just a thought and suggestion that might help you all get at exactly the info you are looking for.

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Already on my to do list, Doc...just for my own peace of mind. I am in Maine but in the next few weeks I will be in that neck of the woods. I want to understand the numbers and their decisions in case this gets considered for any of the areas I enjoy

[steve863]

Steve863, keep attacking us with your immature and ignorant statements.  We are posting facts from the PA PGC , NY DEC, other sources with facts that have done biologic research, and our own experiences.

I tell it like it is, if you can't handle it, then don't read my posts.  As others have pointed out to you, you are nothing more than a head hunter.  All you care about is how big a rack you could bag and want others to sacrifice their hunting ideals just so you can have bigger bucks to shoot for yourself.  You have no clue what hunting is all about and probably never will. 

[Doewhacker]

Yes TheHunter 77% or 158 out of 199 support AR's from the two areas you reference we all know that. Boy what an overwhelling majority that is. I wonder how many of that 158 are from the same Sportsmans club that pushed for AR's to begin with..what about the rest of us.

[burmjohn]

Already on my to do list, Doc...just for my own peace of mind. I am in Maine but in the next few weeks I will be in that neck of the woods. I want to understand the numbers and their decisions in case this gets considered for any of the areas I enjoy

That is a great idea. Please let us know the results. I emailed a few times, and always get directed to a page that is already existing on the DEC site.