Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Doc]

Already on my to do list, Doc...just for my own peace of mind. I am in Maine but in the next few weeks I will be in that neck of the woods. I want to understand the numbers and their decisions in case this gets considered for any of the areas I enjoy

Yeah, I think if people are going to get all worked up for or against AR, a little face-time with DEC personel to ensure that the numbers, articles and graphs are all getting the proper interpretation might be in order. Frankly, I have little real interest in AR one way or the other, and the whole subject is way way way down on my priorities as far as deer management needs are concerned. But for those that fanatically push the concept, or for those that are firmly against it, I would think it might be a good idea to go straight to the horses mouth with a prepared list of good questions.

I congratulate you for arranging to get that info.

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Hold off on the praise for now...I hope I can get it. I am not even sure if that type of info would be available through a FOIL request...regardless of the topic, Doc, I stay pretty consistent...I hate others imposing their views on others. You guys have seen some of my trail cam pics...I don't see a need in my areas. Those willing to hunt hard and hold out have a good chance at a mature buck. But I believe that should be their choice. I also question the high fence mentality that I worry about invading our sport. Aside from all of that....I want to see and understand the basis of the decision...but truthfully....part of me doubts it exists. I am on a mission now...lol

[Doc]

Go sick-'em. I hope you don't have to go the FOIL route. Thats such an unfriendly aggressive route. What I'm hoping is that you can find a nice friendly biologist who has just finished his lunch and is looking for some nice relaxing conversation, and who really doesn't mind helping out a fellow outdoorsmen in a research project. If that doesn't work, you can always resort to the "crowbar" approach later ;D

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The friendly conversation route is always step one....and usually the info is of better quality

[JCTheGC]

I would love for you to share those results with us as well, please let us know what happens.

[JCTheGC]

I tell it like it is, if you can't handle it, then don't read my posts.  As others have pointed out to you, you are nothing more than a head hunter.  All you care about is how big a rack you could bag and want others to sacrifice their hunting ideals just so you can have bigger bucks to shoot for yourself.  You have no clue what hunting is all about and probably never will.

Steve, I am not here to pick a fight, but any hunter I met, their ideals are far from harvesting 1.5 buck.  As I had said in the other post,  in the area I hunt and from what others that are in AR areas have expressed here they have not only seen bigger bucks they have seen more legal bucks to shoot.  So the argument that it deters "first time" hunters from the sport seems like quite a week argument. And the expectation that a first time hunter to shoot a buck is ridiculous, I went over 4 years before harvesting my first buck as a hunter.  1/2 of my family lives and hunts in PA, some of these family members were against AR at first, but after a few years they realized that it not only more mature bucks, a great hunting experience, and a greater opportunity of harvesting a buck as well.  I understand all ends of the arguments, I was also on that other side, until I saw the results.  I respect everyones opinion, I am not bashing anyone, and I am only speaking from first hand experience and what I see.  Let them go, let them grow.

[Doc]

Steve, I am not here to pick a fight, but any hunter I met, their ideals are far from harvesting 1.5 buck. 

Then who in the heck is it that's shooting all these 1.5 bucks that everyone is worrying about? It seems to me that there is likely to be no need for AR, if so many are already sold on the idea of letting them walk. I have not yet figured out these claims about how wildly popular AR is, and yet the harvest percentages of 1.5 yr old deer never seems to change. You can't have it both ways. Which is it? is it a popular concept or not?

Doc

[wztirem]

I will not discount that AR restrictions may have resulted in more buck sightings by hunters in the AR zones but the cost measured in overall hunter satisfaction is certainly debatable. We can show how many licenses were bought by hunters in the AR areas (residents) but cannot accurately account for the number of nonresident hunters who no longer hunt in the AR areas, who are dissatisfied with the current restrictions, have elected to hunt elsewhere or have given up the sport altogether.

I am sure the AR areas have piqued the interest of hunters seeking to have the opportunity to kill a legal antlered deer in the AR areas but the harvest numbers do not indicate this. Given that the majority of the land in the AR areas resides in private concerns, hunter opportunities may be lessened thus accounting for the buck kill statistics.

In the "big picture" the number of licensed hunters in NY is decreasing each year, this is inevitable considering many social factors and the increasing age of the hunter population. Hunter population will bottom out to a stable level  over the coming years, but the days of large sales of hunting licenses is long gone.

The DEC needs to be real carefull in their future approach to methods of deer population control, habitat preservation and  maintaining hunter license sales in order to continue a management system which has been set in place which contributes to the needs of the overlall hunting community,not to just to a select group, not necessarily AR proponents.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Steve, I am not here to pick a fight, but any hunter I met, their ideals are far from harvesting 1.5 buck. 

Then who in the heck is it that's shooting all these 1.5 bucks that everyone is worrying about? It seems to me that there is likely to be no need for AR, if so many are already sold on the idea of letting them walk. I have not yet figured out these claims about how wildly popular AR is, and yet the harvest percentages of 1.5 yr old deer never seems to change. You can't have it both ways. Which is it? is it a popular concept or not?

Doc

Doc, he never said that those hunters didnt shoot 1.5s, he said their ideal buck is not a 1.5 year old, you can only shoot what is available to you.

[Doc]

The point still stands.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I know, I was just saying.

[burmjohn]

Steve, I am not here to pick a fight, but any hunter I met, their ideals are far from harvesting 1.5 buck. 

Then who in the heck is it that's shooting all these 1.5 bucks that everyone is worrying about? It seems to me that there is likely to be no need for AR, if so many are already sold on the idea of letting them walk. I have not yet figured out these claims about how wildly popular AR is, and yet the harvest percentages of 1.5 yr old deer never seems to change. You can't have it both ways. Which is it? is it a popular concept or not?

Doc

I guess some as to be attributed to "saying and doing are two different things".  One might be for not shooting a 1.5, yet takes a 1.5 thinking, Ah, if I don't shoot this, I might not get another chance.  Now that its enforced, its a different story, again in my area.  Now its ah I see this nice 6, 7 or 8, maybe I should hold off knowing that AR has produced options.

[burmjohn]

I will not discount that AR restrictions may have resulted in more buck sightings by hunters in the AR zones but the cost measured in overall hunter satisfaction is certainly debatable. We can show how many licenses were bought by hunters in the AR areas (residents) but cannot accurately account for the number of nonresident hunters who no longer hunt in the AR areas, who are dissatisfied with the current restrictions, have elected to hunt elsewhere or have given up the sport altogether.

I am sure the AR areas have piqued the interest of hunters seeking to have the opportunity to kill a legal antlered deer in the AR areas but the harvest numbers do not indicate this. Given that the majority of the land in the AR areas resides in private concerns, hunter opportunities may be lessened thus accounting for the buck kill statistics.

In the "big picture" the number of licensed hunters in NY is decreasing each year, this is inevitable considering many social factors and the increasing age of the hunter population. Hunter population will bottom out to a stable level  over the coming years, but the days of large sales of hunting licenses is long gone.

The DEC needs to be real carefull in their future approach to methods of deer population control, habitat preservation and  maintaining hunter license sales in order to continue a management system which has been set in place which contributes to the needs of the overlall hunting community,not to just to a select group, not necessarily AR proponents.

We also must consider also those who (I know personally) that are hunting in a AR zone (Delaware County) only 45 min from where I am, that have chosen to hunt in 3H because of AR and the increased opportunity.  Listen, I'm one example, one family, but that's all anyone of us can speak of from experience.  The survey that the DEC performed, although small, does have a somewhat flat satisfaction rate,  yet a high approval rate. I'd be curious to see what it is on the next survey, ideally a better wider survey.

[Doc]

Steve, I am not here to pick a fight, but any hunter I met, their ideals are far from harvesting 1.5 buck. 

Then who in the heck is it that's shooting all these 1.5 bucks that everyone is worrying about? It seems to me that there is likely to be no need for AR, if so many are already sold on the idea of letting them walk. I have not yet figured out these claims about how wildly popular AR is, and yet the harvest percentages of 1.5 yr old deer never seems to change. You can't have it both ways. Which is it? is it a popular concept or not?

Doc

I guess some as to be attributed to "saying and doing are two different things".  One might be for not shooting a 1.5, yet takes a 1.5 thinking, Ah, if I don't shoot this, I might not get another chance.  Now that its enforced, its a different story, again in my area.  Now its ah I see this nice 6, 7 or 8, maybe I should hold off knowing that AR has produced options.

If I had to guess (and it is only a guess), I might think that AR is one of those things that many think is a good idea as long as it remains as a theoretical question (survey or casual conversation). However, when the reality of having to make an actual choice, ideals change real fast and down goes the yearling. So which shows the real attitude, the words or the actions?

Doc

[arrowflinger]

I think it is ironic that those who push hardest for AR have a box full of spike and forkhorn antlers in the garage. :

[WNYBuckHunter]

I think it is ironic that those who push hardest for AR have a box full of spike and forkhorn antlers in the garage. :

Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area.  :

[Doc]

Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area.  :

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area.  :

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction.

Doc

I dont see where you are getting that from? The chart I saw a bunch of pages back, seems to show that in the AR areas, the 1.5 take is down by quite a bit. Can you point me in the right direction to the numbers you are drawing your info from? Im looking for numbers from the AR areas, not the state as a whole, btw.

[burmjohn]

Aye, the 1.5 take is down by over 60 or 70% i beleive (don't have time to check right now @ work).

[punch]

We have the genetics, let them grow.  Trying to be realistic in setting goals and letting the 1.5 yr olds walk.  You have to at least start with that.  Check out www.punchoutdoors.com its free to sign up.

[Doc]

Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area.  :

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction.

Doc

I dont see where you are getting that from? The chart I saw a bunch of pages back, seems to show that in the AR areas, the 1.5 take is down by quite a bit. Can you point me in the right direction to the numbers you are drawing your info from? Im looking for numbers from the AR areas, not the state as a whole, btw.

Why are you only considering AR WMUs when almost all of the state is non-AR. Your previous reply wasn't about AR areas. I thought we were talking about this general mythical AR acceptance (demand even) across the state. I haven't heard of any sudden drop in 1.5 yr old harvest statewide. Have you?

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have no idea how old all the folks are that are posting on this. from my personal experience I shot my first at 17....a spike....and pretty much put anything on the ground with a legal horn until I was probably 30. The area I hunted at the time needed 2 on a doe permit (old system) and if you got one every other year you were VERY lucky. so taking a deer was mostly bucks if you wanted one. I got that out of my system and became more selective. My choice. It felt pretty good letting that first one walk. with all the permits now a days it is much easier to get a deer than it used to be (in most areas of the state...sorry to most of our NZ brothers).

I remember reading a thread on her about the evolution of the hunter through stages. I can't help but think that AR might rob a young hunter of that experience...being able to grow through all the steps.

On the outside looking in at this I guess it isn't that much different than a catch and release section of a river....or a lake with a slot limit....or even a minimum size to keep a fish. I guess I am just getting old and love the way I was able to grow up and have the experience I have had hunting. I just hate to see things change that might jepordize it for my younger relatives. Maybe this would make it better....I don't know....and I am not sure the powers to be really do either....that is my hesitency... I hope I can get down there next week to inquire about the studies

[WNYBuckHunter]

Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area.  :

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction.

Doc

I dont see where you are getting that from? The chart I saw a bunch of pages back, seems to show that in the AR areas, the 1.5 take is down by quite a bit. Can you point me in the right direction to the numbers you are drawing your info from? Im looking for numbers from the AR areas, not the state as a whole, btw.

Why are you only considering AR WMUs when almost all of the state is non-AR. Your previous reply wasn't about AR areas. I thought we were talking about this general mythical AR acceptance (demand even) across the state. I haven't heard of any sudden drop in 1.5 yr old harvest statewide. Have you?

Doc

We are looking at what effects ARs have, or why someone would support them, right? Why would you care what 1.5 numbers are in non-AR units? You can only compare pre and post AR numbers for a given area to see why people would support them.

[SteveB]

We have the genetics, let them grow.  Trying to be realistic in setting goals and letting the 1.5 yr olds walk.  You have to at least start with that.  Check out www.punchoutdoors.com its free to sign up.

Pretty much zero info on who you are or your agenda. I suspect you are part of the fail CNY Whitetail group from a couple years back.

[Doc]

Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area.  :

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction.

Doc

I dont see where you are getting that from? The chart I saw a bunch of pages back, seems to show that in the AR areas, the 1.5 take is down by quite a bit. Can you point me in the right direction to the numbers you are drawing your info from? Im looking for numbers from the AR areas, not the state as a whole, btw.

Why are you only considering AR WMUs when almost all of the state is non-AR. Your previous reply wasn't about AR areas. I thought we were talking about this general mythical AR acceptance (demand even) across the state. I haven't heard of any sudden drop in 1.5 yr old harvest statewide. Have you?

Doc

We are looking at what effects ARs have, or why someone would support them, right? Why would you care what 1.5 numbers are in non-AR units? You can only compare pre and post AR numbers for a given area to see why people would support them.

I don't know, I was responding to your following reply which is clearly regarding non AR areas:

"Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area."

I guess the discussion has changed somewhere along the line....lol.