Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[steve863]

Doc, you are probably right, but there are some characters out there like the guy from  that NYC sportsman club in the old forum who kept telling us how he needed to educate us for not supporting AR's.  He loved to talk down to us like we were some sort of illiterate yahoos.  He obviously had no use for any of us.  Well, maybe he ought to now read the PA report and get a bit of an education himself! LOL

[cynthiafu]

hi . kind of new to the site but i thought i would say something . i dont hunt for antlers i hunt for the meat . so the antler rule is no problem for me unless all i see is a spike . the meat from the deer feeds my family . i am the only hunter in my family my husband doesnt like to hunt so i go with my sister and her husband or i go alone . but with times tough right now that meat is important to my family .

[erussell]

I think some of the areas should have AR, like where I hunt, Broome county which has a high hunter population. The older bucks are far and few and I think most of the bucks taken are sporting there 1st or 2nd rack and if you don't take a buck by the 1st week of gun you are going to more than likely going to be eating your tag. I don't think AR would be needed in the Northern zone, there is plenty of land for a deer to hide and lower hunting population. I wouldn't doubt if there are deer in the Adirondacks that have never seen a deer hunter let alone ever been shot at.

[Larry]

So what you are saying you want to use AR’s to control hunter numbers?

[TheHunter]

So what you are saying you want to use AR’s to control hunter numbers?

No, I think he is pretty clear. Its to allow the buck to mature.  Stop twisting crap around. 

[SteveB]

So what you are saying you want to use AR’s to control hunter numbers?

No, I think he is pretty clear. Its to allow the buck to mature.  Stop twisting crap around.

Points based AR's will allow bucks to reach 5 years old in my area?

[TheHunter]

We are not talking about your area.  Nor are we talking about 5 years old.  He was pretty clear that 1yr and 2yr olds are all that was there. Therefore, the AR is allowing the 1yr and 2yr's to mature slightly before being taken.  Which could result in slightly more mature deer and bigger bucks.  Again, AR is not a one size fits all.  In HIS case it may work.  In your case where you want 5 year old deer it will clearly not work, unless your deer magically stay @ under the restriction until they hit that 5 year old mark. 

I've researched and gone over this for a while.  AR as it stands in NY isn't perfect.  A Spike MAY only be a spike whether its a 1yr or 5yr.  A Spike maybe a spike when its 1yr then mature to be something better. 

What other way do you expect the state to have AR other then by points that could be possible at a WMU wide area?  It's this or nothing. Because asking a hunter to start measuring age, width, etc is not practical or feasible.  The poll show that most are wiling to give it a try, why be so negative.    It has worked in the area I hunt, 3J.  It has worked by others testimonies.  Lets see where it leads us, is not shooting a spike really hurting your hunting season??

[SteveB]

You said it allows a buck to mature - not get a litlle bit older before being killed at 2 or 3. Bucks reach maturity at 4.5 at the earliest. There is no proof anywhere that points based AR increases the take of true mature animals. If you know of any such studies that prove it does, please post them.

What other way do you expect the state to have AR other then by points that could be possible at a WMU wide area?  It's this or nothing.

I expect the state to not try any management scheme not needed from a biological stand point just for the sake of trying something.

The poll show that most are wiling to give it a try, why be so negative.

A poll of 74 respondants out of 500,000 plus hunters?

I'm negative for the reasons given above that it will do nothing statistically to get more bucks to maturity.

Lets see where it leads us, is not shooting a spike really hurting your hunting season??

I can shoot a buck here based on 6 points and most likely it will be a 1.5 buck - same as the spike that gets a walk. Majority of 8 pt will be no older then 2.5 and a lot of them are 1.5 as well. This sounds like good management to anyone?

Not shooting a buck does nothing to hurt my season - haven't shot one in 5 years because I look for older ones and get to take several does. And I get to hunt a lot. If I didn't get the opportunies or time I have, I would shoot a younger buck, but would look for a spike before shooting a 6 or 8 pt the same age. And I'll shake the hand of and help anyone shooting any buck that they take legally and are proud of.

[TheHunter]

Ok so lets try nothing at all and lets see how that works. Great idea!  Better the state to try something rather then nothing at all.  If your stating you have not taken a buck in 5 years and you don't shoot younger buck, then who gives a crap.  Proof? It working in my area, and I'm glad its in place.  I have not shot a buck in 5 years either, and regardless of "AR" we have our own AR on our land.  We obviously can't control the land that surrounds us.  And our "AR" was doing nothing, once the state mandated "AR" came into effect, three years later we magically start seeing bigger more mature deer.  I'll take the "AR" you claim that doesn't work over no AR at all.

And please, for the love of god, don't use the BS "I'll shake anyone's hand that gets a spike" crap.  I'd do the same, I shame no hunter that takes any game at all. I'm not telling anyone in a non-ar WMU to not take whatever he/she wants.  No one should be ashamed of what they take unless its illegal OR against the land owners rules that your hunting on.

[erussell]

So what you are saying you want to use AR’s to control hunter numbers?

No I want to give the bucks a break and get a better buck to doe ratio. The DEC did a good enough job of controlling hunter #s by raising the price of a tag. I know of 5 people who no longer fish or hunt because of the price raise last yr. 

All I know is something has to be done. Last yr while hunting bow, gun and muzzleloader I did not even see a Buck (to pass up ). None, zippo, zero And I have noticed over the last few yrs a decline in the buck populations over all the areas I hunt and have not seen even a spike on state land I hunt on in 5 yrs!! Now last yr might have been just a bad yr because of how hot it was till almost the end of the season in the southern zone but I don't think so. I can remember many a 1st day of bow where it was muggy  and had 6 bucks pass my stand by 9 in the morn. The buck #s just arent there anymore. Pretty soon they wont even call it deer season anymore it will just be called doe season and the Bucks will be protected.   And if you shoot a spike and we are going in the same direction I might help you drag it out, but if its a big old buck that weighs alot ,your on your own  ;D

[Buckstopshere]

It's beginning to appear that deer hunters who do not have many (or in erussel's case...ANY!) opportunities at shooting a legal buck during the gun and 'loader season are more for AR than those of us who have adequate chances at shooting a buck.

AR's is not going to get you to where you want to go. I'm afraid it will have the opposite effect. Any decent young buck will get shot off under ARs...

ARs do NOT protect the little six's and eight's. On the contrary...It TARGETS them. I know it is a tough idea for those who support ARs to understand because it stands on its head the common understanding that we've all had rammed down our throats by the experts on TV. 

(I passed...did not shoot at 30-some antlered bucks all, spikes, forks and little six-pointers, during rifle, which was a record number of sightings during season for me...holding out for a big buck (for my area) and more importantly, if not as important, not wanting to end my season.

And I hunt on heavily hunted private and state land. (Not "Sanctuary" land that few hunters can hunt on, groomed for whitetail hunting.) But I hunt on a bunch of small properties.

I don't know if I have ever seen a mature buck, dead or alive in my life, except in photos because someone tells me in the cutline (caption)  it is...as SteveB says, five or six years old and I have a shot a few three and a half year olds. I remember a guy came up to me from a nearby town and showed me a picture of a buck (a little seven point...about a 80-Class) that the DEC had aged at 11 years old. Maybe that was true, and maybe it wasn't. I know that the only real way to accurately age deer past three years is by pulling the tooth and sending it in. Tooth wear has a lot of variables.

New York is such a diverse state in so many ways. But I guess I understand the frustration of hunters who want to see more bucks and believe that the state can change it's management system so that will increase their chances in the woods.

But this talk about "the correct buck to doe ratio" that sounds good...but I think it is more B.S., one of those things that makes us sound like we know what we are talking about, but proves we don't. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, please don't take it that way. I grew up "in the old school" so I say things a bit harshly for modern sensitivities, I know.

Heck, nobody even knows the deer population in an area, right? Do you? Well, if you don't know the population number, then tell me, how in the h..e...double L can we know a complex formula like the ratio?

Now I know that we can easily know the kill ratio of bucks to does. But that is not the same as the population ratio. We hunt bucks as one species (with its own regs. and rules) and we hunt does (well antlerless deer, including button bucks) as another.

[SteveB]

Ok so lets try nothing at all and lets see how that works. Great idea!  Better the state to try something rather then nothing at all.

Exactly - better that they do nothing at all then something that will mean 1.5 spikes get a walk while the 6+ point (the majority) 1.5 get shot - in my area. You have failed to tell me how this would be a good thing.

Proof? It working in my area, and I'm glad its in place.

With respect, where are the hard numbers, actual counts of the popuation there that qualify as proof?

According to the DEC there has been little statistical impact. Certainley not enough to say that the results in the trial areas are proof that they should be implimented in 7j,h - areas vastly different in habitat, numbers and everything else.

And please, for the love of god, don't use the BS "I'll shake anyone's hand that gets a spike" crap.  I'd do the same, I shame no hunter that takes any game at all. I'm not telling anyone in a non-ar WMU to not take whatever he/she wants. 

I apologize for implying that you wouldn't do the same - not my intent at. Letting you know that my being anti AR has nothing to do with any wish to shoot young bucks, but don't feel the need to mandate to others what they hunt. And I feel the same as BSH, that points are no way to determine the maturity of a buck.

I was trying to make the point that voluntary and education are the way to go especially since any real studies done indicate mandatory AR has little real impact on getting more bucks to maturity and there has been no demostrated, proven biological need for it in most of NY.

I am not attacking you personally in any way - just engaging in discussion of our respective veiwpoints.

[SteveB]

Hunter please read the following link.

It supports what BSH and I have said about points based AR not protecting, but targeting the best 1.5 and 2.5's.

http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php/topic,116.0.html

[furman_ny]

Buckstop, I totally agree with the first part of your post, AR's would hurt the cream of the crop younger deer while leaving the inferior ones alone to grow into inferior older deer, many who support these AR in my area leave the spike and forks alone, but dont hesitate to shoot a 2year old 8 point, because they can brag to buddies they got an 8 pointer----exactly the WRONG deer to shoot, but its bigger, so they think regs working. I too see and pass many deer each season, but not because I am an AR supporter, I like to hunt the whole season and tagging first buck I saw would put me on the sidelines way too early for my liking. The second part of your post about buck/doe ratio is, in part, why I dont think QDM will ever do any good, at least in my part of the state. I am fortunate enough to spend more time in the woods and just being outdoors than most will ever be, I have 3 small farms near me, and just last night drove around looking at deer, in 3 fields within a mile of road, saw 95 deer, 2 of which were 1 1/2 yr. old bucks, rest all doe and fawns, Im not ignorant enough to say ratio is 47 to 1, some of those fawns certainly were bucks, and undoubtedly some bucks were back in the woods, but so were some does. Ive read extensively on QDM and all reports say at worst you can have 3/1 doe to buck ratio, preferably lower. That being said, if herd balance was anywhere near where it needs to be optimal for bucks to reach full potential, just going on last night that would mean we either need to severely reduce doe populations, or produce enough food to feed about 300 deer per square mile---which is near impossible. I keep pretty good records of what I see, and get to talk to several other pretty serious hunters on regular basis, before, during and after seasons, no one in this area can tell me the ratio is better than 10/1, maybe worse. I just looked up DMP permits on DEC site, and less than 2 out of 3 hunters who apply here will receive a doe permit, and obviously nowhere near all of those will be filled, but ALL hunters will be carrying a buck tag. Now I'm not going to say I dont enjoy seeing alot of deer while hunting, I do, but until the number of does is greatly reduced, I do not see how AR and QDM will ever reach potential that will get me on board. I work in the taxidermy business and see many bucks from many areas of the state, DEC ages many of these at the shop, many hunters disappointed when they find out their 4 1/2 year old, 200 lb. buck only scores 130 inches, very nice deer no doubt, but nothing like they should be. Alot to do with genes I know, but also alot to do with lack of good nutrition, most of which gets chewed up by those doe that many AR supporters will NOT shoot. Enough for today, I enjoy the conversations on here, keep em coming.

[SteveB]

Another great read from an area that has tried it far longer then NY.

http://www.mississippigameandfish.com/hunting/whitetail-deer-hunting/ms_aa122902a/index.html

[Buckstopshere]

Thanks for posting that article SteveB. I think the study at Mississippi State University, and now the conclusion of the new report from Pennsylvania should at least put a halt to AR in the scientific community, but there evidently is still motivation to purse the policy, even though it has been demonstrated now to do the opposite of what it intended.

And any student of deer management will have to admit that the rules that govern our precious whitetail deer are pushed and pulled by politics as much if not more than by science.

There are a lot of well-meaning hunters out there who have been sold a bill of goods.

[Larry]

Some people had a hard time with bio. 101. The 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio is a myth. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s (  If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more bucks sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year.). A better way to see more and bigger bucks all you need to do is keep the deer population at about 80% of capacity and forget about the buck to doe ratio; and you don’t have to let every small buck walk  just most of them. Also some habitat improvement helps. It is that simple. Remember Bio 101 an over abundance of males is detrimental to a species survival.  Also up to 2/3’s of the deer on any piece of land before hunting season are FAWNS!

[Larry]

One more thing my source at the DEC has said there will probably be no more AR zones in the near future. So this is probably a dead issue. For now 

[erussell]

Some people had a hard time with bio. 101. The 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio is a myth. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s (  If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more bucks sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year.). A better way to see more and bigger bucks all you need to do is keep the deer population at about 80% of capacity and forget about the buck to doe ratio; and you don’t have to let every small buck walk  just most of them. Also some habitat improvement helps. It is that simple. Remember Bio 101 an over abundance of males is detrimental to a species survival.  Also up to 2/3’s of the deer on any piece of land before hunting season are FAWNS!

how bout 2 to 1 instead would you settle for that, see article below  .  Some people have already made up there minds that AR is a bad idea. We aren't going to convince you even when you start to see and shoot big bucks when AR is put in place in NY and it will be its the future of deer hunting. I'm really suprised the Taxidermy people haven't banded together and try to push for it. There business stand to make alot of money from this.

http://www.lhup.edu/smarvel/seminar/fall_2004/miles_2/pa.htm

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/antler_restrictions/

[furman_ny]

Larry, I dont believe I said it would give you more bucks, it will give you healthier, thus larger bucks, which I am guessing is the whole point of ARs and QDM. Based on the deer numbers you gave, I will give you the normal scenario. The guy who owns that propert with 15 doe and 5 buck is a "trophy", not a "meat" hunter. He passes any small buck he sees, and more than likely does not shoot a mature buck, leaving 5 bucks. He lets does walk for most of season in hopes of bucks tracking them, end of season finally takes one for freezer, leaving 14. Say 7 or 8 of those get bred, next summer you got 15 more deer on your land, thus almost doubling the herd. Sure, some will disperse, but you get 3 or 4 landowners near each other doing same thing, you end up with way too many deer. Yes, they are amazing animals, and we usually dont have bad enough winters here to have mich of a die off, so they will find a way to survive, but they surely WON'T be anywhere near as healthy and big as they could be. Your right, keep herd at 80 percent of holding capacity would be ideal, fact is in most places the herd way exceeds healthy holding numbers, kind of getting to point of what I said earlier, until herd numbers are reduced greatly,ARs and QDM to produce trophy bucks is pretty much a joke. Thats not saying if you can go out and buy 1,000 acres and manage YOUR herd correctly, you surely could grow some large, healthy deer, but overall statewide its not happening. Most hunters do not have that kind of money to throw around, myself included.

[erussell]

http://www.lhup.edu/smarvel/seminar/fall_2004/miles_2/pa.htm

From Article

Over the three year study, it appears that antler restrictions are working.  Pennsylvania's doe harvest has increased by 65 percent to an average of 315,000.  Buck harvest has dropped 24 percent to roughly 154,000.  The yearling buck mortality has dropped from 85 percent of all bucks harvested to 57 percent of all bucks harvested allowing them to live longer and grow bigger racks as predicted.  Probably the most significant finding is that the ratio of adult does to adult bucks has gone from 14-1 to almost 2-1 in just three years of monitoring (see table 1).  The radio collars that were attached to the deer that were captured allowed researchers to monitor their survival.  They found that nearly 90 percent of all adult bucks that survived the 2002 hunting season were still available to hunt in the 2003 season.  After the first year of the new antler restrictions, the average age of all bucks harvested went up from 1.5 years to 2.5 years of age.  Researchers predict that this year the average age of all bucks harvested will be 3.5.  In 2003, almost half of the yearling bucks and a third of  two and a half year old bucks survived the hunting season.  Gary alt stated, "for the first time in my life a lot of three year old bucks are coming into the population.  Moreover, according to the game commissions extensive research study, twice as many bucks are surviving the hunting seasons than had been in the past before the new antler restrictions. Of the 551 bucks that were tagged during the study, 260 of them are currently still walking the landscape of Pennsylvania

[SteveB]

Article is from 2004 -just 3 years into the program. My understanding is that now, 6 years later,  they have not come close to that 3.5 average age. And the buck take continues to plumment. Couple that with a vanishing herd and fewer and fewer Pa hunters are happy with the program. Pa is losing hunters in droves - do we want to follow their footstep?

[erussell]

PA hunters aren't leaving in droves there retiring and dieing in droves. The old guard is going out and the new is coming in.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/whitetails/2009/03/hunting-license-sales-rebound-pennsylvania

http://www.ammoland.com/2010/07/08/increased-hunting-license-sales-the-success-of-families-afield/

"We can explain decreases in men," said Mark Duda of Responsive  Management, a Virginia firm that tracks and interprets outdoors trends.  "Male hunters live in rural areas and they're aging. As to why female  participation is increasing, that's more of a mystery, since it appears  to span various age groups, incomes and levels of education.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07315/832774-358.stm#ixzz0w6nbSQmD

[muckland]

I believe that NY has great potential for BIG BUCKS!!!!  I have seen with my own eyes that spikes CAN grow into a respectable animal.  However not being in an antler restricted area; it’s a tough one for me to give an opinion.  I know a lot of hunters only have a certain amount of time to hunt, and if small bucks are all that they see, that’s a tough situation to be in.    Anyway if we can just get people out of the Brown it’s down mentality and get some age on these bucks, NY could be great for Trophy Whitetails

[SteveB]

PA hunters aren't leaving in droves there retiring and dieing in droves. The old guard is going out and the new is coming in.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/whitetails/2009/03/hunting-license-sales-rebound-pennsylvania

http://www.ammoland.com/2010/07/08/increased-hunting-license-sales-the-success-of-families-afield/

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07315/832774-358.stm

Ok - but what about the important part of my post.

Article is from 2004 -just 3 years into the program. My understanding is that now, 6 years later,  they have not come close to that 3.5 average age. And the buck take continues to plumment.

This demonstrates any kind of success?