Who pays the electric bill for EV carging stations?

[Grouse]

In order to pander to 1% of the vehicle owners on the road, Biden wants to shell out $5 Billion tax dollars to put charging stations on highways.  Who gets the bill for the electric that is supplied to EV owners on these highway chargers?  Are they going to put coin slots in them or burden taxpayers with that cost too?

US Eyes Charging Infrastructure

The Biden administration announced yesterday $5B in funding for states to construct charging infrastructure for electric vehicles. It marks the first tranche of funding drawn for such projects under the $1.2T bipartisan infrastructure bill passed last year.    Initial funds will be focused on fast-charging stations located along major interstate highways, an attempt to address a disconnected and difficult to access charging infrastructure across the country. The administration has set a goal of 500,000 new chargers by 2030, an eleven fold increase over current stations.    Electric vehicles sales in the US jumped 83% in 2021 year-over-year, accounting for 3% of the market (hybrids notched another 5% of light vehicle sales). Still, EVs make up less than 1% of the more than 250 million passenger vehicles on the road today.

[Steuben Jerry]

I don’t own an electric car, but I was under the impression that you have to swipe a card at a charging station just like we do at a gas pump. No?

[Grouse]

I know many do work like that, but not all do.  I assume the highway ones will need to have the swipe a card feature, but am not sure.  Who pays for the "free" ones?

[hueyjazz]

Screw the chargers is just more evidence of how short-guided thinking this is.  Sleepy thinks this will make more people buy electric cars.  (That we can't make due to labor shortage and material shortage)

The US has very little lithium to produce batteries.  It mostly comes from Australia, Chile and China.  And guess who makes the majority of batteries for cars? China.  And how do you dispose of these batteries?  It not easy and a lot of potential for fire.  Most batteries aren't really dead, they just aren't up to capacity.

We aren't ready for electric cars in mass production.  We can't even produce them now due to a shortage of microchips and other parts.  (Made outside the US of course)

This plan isn't sustainable at the present.  We switch from being tied to the Middle East to being even deeper in bed with China and other entities all outside of the US.   

But I'm keeping my bike

[ApexerER]

I have wondered this with the chargers that are out there now. I have never seen one that wasn't free...

[Just Lucky]

2 hours ago, ApexerER said:

I have wondered this with the chargers that are out there now. I have never seen one that wasn't free...

Every dealership that sells plug in cars is required by manufacturer to have charging stations,  free to the public at this time. 

Also, currently at dealers expense. 

[New York Hillbilly]

7 minutes ago, Just Lucky said:

Every dealership that sells plug in cars is required by manufacturer to have charging stations,  free to the public at this time.

No such thing as a free lunch. We will pay dearly for this all in the end. 

We will build a great big beautiful electric charger wall around our country. And, China will make US pay for it!

[Just Lucky]

7 hours ago, New York Hillbilly said:

No such thing as a free lunch. We will pay dearly for this all in the end. 

We will build a great big beautiful electric charger wall around our country. And, China will make US pay for it!

There is alot of money to be made with electric cars, and chargers. Someone has to install charging stations. The government is gonna invest huge money into subsidizing the programs. 

Whether we agres with it or not, that is the direction the US is going. I am directly effected by this. I am one of only a few technicians certified to work on the electric cars. I have chosen to get as much knowledge on them as I can to continue my career. Long term cost of ownership on the electric cars will be low. There is practically no maintenance on them, brakes will rot out before they wear out. Updates to modules will be done with satellite,  saving trips to dealership for consumers. 

Only thing that will wear out will be tires. Perhaps that is where highway tax will be added.

I look at it alot like power tools. How far have they came in 15 years. 

 

[New York Hillbilly]

2 hours ago, Just Lucky said:

The government is gonna invest huge money into subsidizing the programs.

Who exactly do you think "the government is? "We" ARE the taxpayers funding the government, and we are the  people who will pay for this. I'm happy for you that you found away to make a career out of it all. I'll never fault anyone for providing for themselves and family. 

But to force the entire population into depending on their transportation means that will in turn be dependent on China, is in my opinion a huge strategic mistake. 

Think it's tough when toilet paper runs out? Just wait until China controls the supply of batteries and other components required to enable us to move about in our daily lives. And, not to mention our already vulnerable electric grid in this country. Remember it being hacked not too long ago and held hostage? Here's a smart idea (sarcasm), let's just make everything dependent of electricity, put all the eggs in one basket, so when it comes time to shut everything down it will require just one flip of a switch or keyboard stroke.

People better smarten up soon or they will not need to worry about toilet paper, because our enemies are just waiting for the right moment to wipe our asses!

 

[Just Lucky]

6 hours ago, New York Hillbilly said:

Who exactly do you think "the government is? "We" ARE the taxpayers funding the government, and we are the  people who will pay for this. I'm happy for you that you found away to make a career out of it all. I'll never fault anyone for providing for themselves and family. 

But to force the entire population into depending on their transportation means that will in turn be dependent on China, is in my opinion a huge strategic mistake. 

Think it's tough when toilet paper runs out? Just wait until China controls the supply of batteries and other components required to enable us to move about in our daily lives. And, not to mention our already vulnerable electric grid in this country. Remember it being hacked not too long ago and held hostage? Here's a smart idea (sarcasm), let's just make everything dependent of electricity, put all the eggs in one basket, so when it comes time to shut everything down it will require just one flip of a switch or keyboard stroke.

People better smarten up soon or they will not need to worry about toilet paper, because our enemies are just waiting for the right moment to wipe our asses!

 

What is the difference between being dependent on china for lithium, or Russia for oil, as we are now. 

Options are good. They create competition.

[Grouse]

We were not dependent on any other nation for oil until Biden destroyed our energy independence which Trump won for us.  We could be energy independent again if people were not fools when they vote.

[Northcountryman]

10 hours ago, Just Lucky said:

low. There is practically no maintenance on them, brakes will rot out before they wear out.

Can you explain why that is please ? 

[Northcountryman]

58 minutes ago, Just Lucky said:

What is the difference between being dependent on china for lithium, or Russia for oil, as we are now. 

Options are good. They create competition.

Both options suck IMHO

[Grouse]

The world will run out of lithium far sooner than it will run out of oil too.

[Just Lucky]

39 minutes ago, Northcountryman said:

Can you explain why that is please ? 

No engines, just motors. So no air filter, or oil changes. Also transmissions are being eliminated so no hydraulic fluid. Power steering has gone electric so no fluid. Some vehicles have put the electric motors at the wheels.

Suspension parts will still wear, but they are not maintenance items, as some shops will try to sell. High voltage Battery replacement on some vehicles can be less then 1 hour(which are minimal warranty coverage of 15 years, 150k miles)

With electric cars, when letting of accelerator you will get resistance from motor to slow down vehicle,  and also regenerative braking which recharges battery.so braking becomes minimal.  When brake pedal is applied the bms will recieive a signal and apply resistance accordingly with electric motor assisting in stopping. 

There is a shortage of qualified technicians, and whether I like it or not, electric vehicles will help close the gap. Unfortunately people who just turn bolts will fall behind and be left changing tires.

[Just Lucky]

54 minutes ago, Northcountryman said:

Both options suck IMHO

I agree. Unfortunately even with domestic oil the government subsidies these companies to sell to foreign countries, then turn around and buy it from another foreign country. I don't quite believe that is a free market neither, as those against lithium would suggest. 

[Just Lucky]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

We were not dependent on any other nation for oil until Biden destroyed our energy independence which Trump won for us.  We could be energy independent again if people were not fools when they vote.

That is not true. We, as Americans consume more than our workforce can produce.  That is not just oil.

[Just Lucky]

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The world will run out of lithium far sooner than it will run out of oil too.

How do you know this?

[Northcountryman]

20 minutes ago, Just Lucky said:

With electric cars, when letting of accelerator you will get resistance from motor to slow down vehicle, 

Oh, I think I get it; kind of like when youre mowing a lawn using an electric mower and you just let up on the action lever , everything just sort of stops, right?

[Northcountryman]

20 minutes ago, Just Lucky said:

That is not true. We, as Americans consume more than our workforce can produce.  That is not just oil.

That is what theyre saying, that under Trump, we were oil independent; do you have data that  contradicts that? 

[Northcountryman]

Suffice it to say, I think that its adundantly clear that we were WAY better off under Trump energy wise than under the Biden administration.

[Just Lucky]

6 minutes ago, Northcountryman said:

Suffice it to say, I think that its adundantly clear that we were WAY better off under Trump energy wise than under the Biden administration.

Yes, i agree

[New York Hillbilly]

1 hour ago, Northcountryman said:

Both options suck IMHO

Why so many Americans are now in a race to be bent over and take it by our enemies blows my mind!!

I'm constantly reminded of a line from the kids movie All Dogs Go to Heaven, "Morons, I'm surrounded by morons!"

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Just Lucky said:

How do you know this?

If we would like to have a North American standard of living for everyone in the world – say, 1 car for every 2 people – then we would need about 3.4 billion Nissan Leafs. This would use 32% of the identified resources (all known lithium in the world), or 82% of the reserves (all lithium that is currently economic to produce). Even with widespread recycling, that seems like an unsustainable prospect.

Remember that the limits on battery capacity are fundamental. The only ways this percentage can go down are:

1. Battery capacity exceeds 73% of the theoretical maximum (unlikely)
2. New deposits of lithium are discovered and made economic (unknowable)
3. Smaller lithium-ion batteries are used (shorter range)
4. Fewer cars are built with lithium-ion batteries.

This suggests to me that if all the world's cars are going to be made electric, it is likely that a mixture of battery technologies will be used. It is certainly possible to build millions of electric vehicles with lithium-ion batteries, but it may not be possible to make billions of them.

World Lithium Supply (stanford.edu)

[Just Lucky]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

If we would like to have a North American standard of living for everyone in the world – say, 1 car for every 2 people – then we would need about 3.4 billion Nissan Leafs. This would use 32% of the identified resources (all known lithium in the world), or 82% of the reserves (all lithium that is currently economic to produce). Even with widespread recycling, that seems like an unsustainable prospect.

Remember that the limits on battery capacity are fundamental. The only ways this percentage can go down are:

1. Battery capacity exceeds 73% of the theoretical maximum (unlikely)
2. New deposits of lithium are discovered and made economic (unknowable)
3. Smaller lithium-ion batteries are used (shorter range)
4. Fewer cars are built with lithium-ion batteries.

This suggests to me that if all the world's cars are going to be made electric, it is likely that a mixture of battery technologies will be used. It is certainly possible to build millions of electric vehicles with lithium-ion batteries, but it may not be possible to make billions of them.

World Lithium Supply (stanford.edu)

Technology will improve  just as it has with combustion engines.  It already has over the last 10 years. 

Hell according to the experts 50 years ago, we should already be out of oil too.