Gander illegal products

[Doc]

I stopped into Gander Mountain in Henrietta yesterday ( I can't imagine why .... lol), and I saw quite an array of products that are clearly illegal for possession in NYS regarding anti-baiting laws. There was something that clearly looked like a salt block, and indeed listed salt as a major ingredient. And then there was the mineral items that basically were camoflaged to look like a rock. And then there were other supplies for feeders (clearly marked as such). What the heck is going on there? They seem to have a problem stocking legitimate hunting products and supplies, but have no shortage of things that are illegal to use in hunting applications. Yes, I'm sure there is some sort of legal loopholes that allow them to sell these things. What I have heard is that they carry them for use in other states ....... yeah .... right.

Frankly, regardless of what anyone feels about baiting, I would think there might be some sort of outrage about an outdoor store trying to thwart NYS game laws. I was kind of kicking myself all the way home for not digging out the store manager and giving him/her some grief for the policy of selling illegal products.

[SteveMcD]

I was teaching a Hunter Ed Course a couple of years ago and one of the students parents was a Local Agway Feed Store Manager, and when we were talking about Ethics, he mentioned that during the week before deer season all of the Deer Feed they Supply literally goes flying off the shelves. So I said, "feeding deer in New York is illegal, so why then do you sell the stuff"? He replied, "because there are several deer farms in the county". I said, "yeah right!". Like everything else.... if a quick (and many times -- lucrative) buck can be made - business is business and ethics can go to blazes. .

[WNYBuckHunter]

I emailed DEC about this last year, here is a copy of the conversation. The convo starts at the bottom BTW.

John, funny you should mention the placement of signs alerting people that the feeding of deer is illegal. NYS had a law that required that exact thing until last year when it was repealed. Please don't ask me why it was repealed, because I don't have any idea. (this is why the saying "I don't make the laws, I just enforce them" was created) Tom

>>> "John" 08/28/11 12:04 PM >>>

Lt Stoner,

Thanks for the reply. I actually didn’t think about deer farms. Maybe the DEC and the state of NY should look into passing a law or code that makes the retailers post signs along side the product that clearly states these products are illegal to use at any time of the year for wild deer. That way people that do not already know the law, or are being told the wrong information by other mis-informed people that are employed by the stores would see it right when they are looking at which product they are considering. The stores could be sent an electronic copy of the sign and would be required to print and display them. Just a thought. Again, thanks for the reply.

John

From: Thomas Stoner

Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 11:12 AM

To:

Subject: Re: Question on baiting products for deer

Hello John, I understand your confusion and your frustration is shared by many law abiding hunters and citzens alike. However there are literally hundreds of deer farms and licensed shooting preserves in NYS where these products may legally be used. So there is a legitimate and legal reason for stores to stock and sell those products. You are correct though in the fact that often those products are sold and used for illegal activity. While the legitimate sale and use of these products can't be prohibited, concerned and ethical sportsman should cooperate with law enforcement to apprehend and prosecute those who knowingly violate the law. Thanks for your interest and concern, Lt. Tom Stoner

>>> "John" 08/24/11 2:11 PM >>>

I am a little confused about the DEC policy on bait for deer. DEC states that baiting and supplemental feeding of deer is illegal any time of the year, yet many stores carry products that are sold for nothing other than to bait, attract and feed deer. For example, Gander Mountain in Henrietta has 2 aisles dedicated to products like C’mere Deer, Deer Caine, Acorn Rage, Trophy Rocks and many other brands of bait and mineral licks. I have heard employees of the store explain to customers just how to use these products to attract deer to trail cameras, etc and tell them that they use it with their cams near their homes. A few times I have walked over and tried to explain that using those products is illegal in NY, only to have the customer or employee tell me that they believe that it is fine to use any time other than during open deer seasons. I know that is not true, and that those people are mistaken. Every time I go into Gander Mountain, I see people walking out with bags and jugs of the stuff. My confusion is why does the DEC allow those products to be sold in the state, if its not legal to use in the state? Seems to me that people think they can use it because they can buy it here.

Thanks,

John

[Culvercreek hunt club]

and I saw quite an array of products that are clearly illegal for possession in NYS regarding anti-baiting laws.

Possession is not illegal. Use on lands inhabited by deer is. I personally know 2 guys in the Albany area that hunt the shore area in CT. it is legal to use bait there. THey by here and stock up for a 2 week hunt down there. So I guess there are legal uses.

I am not so pie eyed to believe that the main sales aren't for illegal Ny use though. I just don't think they should pass a law about it. Enforce it ont he usage end. BUT I don't believe the DEC will do that either unless it is in conjunction with a bigger offense or as a reason to investigate something else. I have reported deer feeding twice in the last year. same location ...same person....NOTHING was done except sending me a nice email stating they would look into it. They didn't Just another fluff law in NY that means nothing.

[Fantail]

Hey, if they change the laws we could all put out feeders and attract wild Bore! No thank you.

Yeah I shop at Gander once in a while, it's sort of on the way to camp and I do small plots, they usually stock the seed-mix I'm after. Seen the same jazz this thread is about, who hasn't if you've been there.

It occurs to me corn and 'feed' would attract unwanted critters. Look at it this way, think about all the rats that have settled down to welfare in this country.

Gander should rent rear-tine tillers, or - sell these signs;

[fasteddie]

It's kinda crazy ...... it's okay to sell it but illegal to use it . ?????? Tractor Supply also sells the deer attractant .

If the stores are catering to "Deer Farms" why not make it necessary that you are purchasing for a Legal Deer Farm and not be allowed to sell to others .

Another response is the store saying that people buy it for hunting in states where the supplements are legal . B.S. !

[dave6x6]

I agree completely Fasteddie, I don't get it. I haven't checked lately but are they still selling three blade Rage broadheads? What's their convoluted excuse for that. As for the DEC, in my opinion, they do a great job here in 8h. I know of two guys that were busted for baiting . One with apple piles and corn, the other with a salt lick in front of a trail camera and 20yrds from a tree stand. In that case they came right up to the guy as he was hunting out of that stand. I would bet that 50% of people don't know that you can't put those liquid type,pour in the dirt attractants in front of your trail cams, even in the off season.

Edited May 23, 2012 by dave6x6

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Dave,

DO you know if in those two cases there were other charges or complaints? I have reported twice and nothing. I can look out the back window at work and see the wooden and barrel feeder there. Nothing has been done there.

[growalot]

a few guys in this area have been caught with corn piles so they do investigate ...but your right I've been in Henrietta and watched guys wondering around with literally carts chucked full of blocks ...stump licker.... acorn rage..not thinking any thing of itor go to Wht tail institute site and see all the testamonials for there deer blocks and minerals...all containing salt from guys in NYS....all giving their names!

What bugs me about Gander is they are always in stock with that stuff but I'll be damned if they ever have the slugs or replacement blades or or bullet caliber I use...That just ticks me off....

[noodle one]

What,s wrong with this law. It is illegal for any sports shop or store to sell lead weight less than 0ne oz. for fishing in New York state.(spit shot). You can not buy any lead weight from online stores from out state because it is illegal to ship it into New York state.Now for the good part, you can use any size lead weight ( spit shot) in New York state for fishing ,because it is legal to use. If you go out side of NYS to buy it or have someone you know carry it in for you ,then you are legal. I would like to know who thinks up and writes the game and fish laws? Please let me know if you have the answer.

[ny hunter]

I know in 3h where we have camp there is a new DEC officer,he stopped in to say hello and check our paper work.Anyway he told me he is catching quite a few people baiting deer,from corn piles to apples.There are just people who try to take the easy way out instead of actually hunting I guess.

[dave6x6]

Dave,

DO you know if in those two cases there were other charges or complaints? I have reported twice and nothing. I can look out the back window at work and see the wooden and barrel feeder there. Nothing has been done there.

Culver, yes you are right that in most cases the DEC seems to need some sort of complaint or other violation before they investigate the baiters. That was the case with the salt lick guy. Seems the neighbor found a blood drag mark that started 30yrds out in his posted field, and led back to the hedgerow where the guy hunted. Because the neighbor never got a call (which is all he asked the guy to do if he shot something and it went on his property), he called the DEC to have them look into it. Thats when they found the guy in his stand with the lick 20yrds away. The apples and corn guy, from what i know was just a random discovery by the DEC and he waited for the hunter to show up and nailed him. First case was in the W. Bloomfield area. Second was in Victor.

[phade]

I think most of the supplies as many see it are used illegally here in NY.

I do see the legality of the farm use and for out of state use. I admit that I buy lick material from Gander for use in Ohio (legal there). It's acutally much more expensive in the Ohio area I hunt. The Black Magic is $9.99 or $7.99 when on sale here...and in Ohio I see it for $13.99 most places, which are mom n pop stores that don't have the most consistent stocking practices (I've went to them before only to see the shelf empty...which does me no good).

It does amaze me at the general lack of concern people have about that stuff when it is illegal to use on deer inhabited lands here. People have carts full of that stuff and they talk as if nobody cares. Of course, I don't know their particular situation (hunting in NY vs. elsewhere), but I see it all the time.

[adirondackbushwhack]

I know in 3h where we have camp there is a new DEC officer,he stopped in to say hello and check our paper work.Anyway he told me he is catching quite a few people baiting deer,from corn piles to apples.There are just people who try to take the easy way out instead of actually hunting I guess.

I believe you have identified the problem. Taking the easy way out instead of hunting. It is easier to bait than it is to learn to hunt and then actually do it.

[Doc]

The problem is that people tend to give a quick glance at the game syllabus, if they even open it up at all. So unless they have heard through the grapevine or some other incidental source that baiting/feeding is illegal, they might make the incorrect assumption that simply because the product is sold locally that the practice is alright. Yeah, I know ..... you are supposed to know and understand all game laws, but I have an old copy of the official game law books, and I assure you that all game law is not in that little comic book that comes with your license. Furthermore, the interpretation of fish and game laws can vary widely depending on how many different ECOs or judges you ask (and those are the people that are supposed to be experts on the laws). So unfortunately, having these stores selling these illegal products does lend some confusion about the law.

I would have no problem with stores selling this kind of product to deer farmers, etc. as long as proof of that kind of business were needed for purchase.

As far as the enforcement of this particular law is concerned, lets not forget that the enforcement part of the DEC has been starved out, like the rest of the department. So don't be looking for every tip to be immediately acted upon. Those people are spread pretty thin these days.

[ny hunter]

They are spread very thin I was told 3 officers were supposed to cover from most of the Southern zone.On a good day they might get a 4th.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Doc,

You have triggered another thought in my head (yup that makes 2 for 2012) ....I know people that do NOT hunt that feed deer. They hae no game book to read and I know the whole "ignorrance of the law" thing...but how does John Q Public find this out. Go to al lot of water access areas and how many folks wonder down and feed old bread to ducks? The people I know that were feeding and not hunters had no idea it was illegal. THey wandered in and picked the stuff up and thought it was helping and really cool to watch the deer every night.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

My first report was on November 1st 2011. Over a 6 month response time. I hope the LEO's don't get spread that thin.

[Doc]

Doc,

You have triggered another thought in my head (yup that makes 2 for 2012) ....I know people that do NOT hunt that feed deer. They hae no game book to read and I know the whole "ignorrance of the law" thing...but how does John Q Public find this out. Go to al lot of water access areas and how many folks wonder down and feed old bread to ducks? The people I know that were feeding and not hunters had no idea it was illegal. THey wandered in and picked the stuff up and thought it was helping and really cool to watch the deer every night.

Sure enough that phrase about "ignorance of the law is no excuse" sounds real good and as long as you are not too fussy about reality. The reality is that laws have been added to about as quickly as legislators can do it, and on any given day, you can be assured that you have most likely broken some laws without even knowing it, or without even having any chance at ever knowing it until somebody of authority happens to observe you doing it. It's a sad situation, but ignorance of the law is a very real excuse. It just is not an excuse that will get you out of legal punishment.

So sure, you've got people (non-deer hunters) who could buy and use this stuff with no chance in hell of being told that it's illegal until the law comes knocking on the door. As long as its out on the shelves and on display and offered openly for sale, why would anyone question it?

Since these stores have a legal loophole regarding these kinds of sales, it probably is a good time to try to have a heart-to-heart talk with store managers and let them know that sportsmen and women are not supporting this practice or the B.S. excuses that they use for pushing those products.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I sure hate more laws and regulaions but I could get behind and argument that requires a stoe selling agricultural foods to post the regulation about not seeding deer/ ducks and anything wlse that applies

[fasteddie]

I know Gander Mt had a sign by the Rage 3 expandables that they can't be used in NYS .

[Culvercreek hunt club]

THey did. I saw it too.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I sure hate more laws and regulaions but I could get behind and argument that requires a stoe selling agricultural foods to post the regulation about not seeding deer/ ducks and anything wlse that applies

The DEC officer I spoke to said they used to have that regulation in place and they repealed it a couple of years ago. What kind of sense does that make? Id put money on the table that says some or all of the attractant companies got together and lined someones pockets to get that one done.