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Muzzleloader and felons


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29 replies to this topic

#1 20ftupatree

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:17 PM

Here is a question I have been unable to get an answer to. Has NY changed the law making it illegal for a felon to posses a muzzleloader? My brother is a convicted felon, He was told first he could not own a firearm (common knowledge) BUT was told by DEC officer that muzzleloaders were not recognized as a firearm and were legal for felons to use for hunting purposes. This year he applied for his certificate of release from disabilities which basically gives you some of the lost rights back, while applying he mentioned that he uses a ML to hunt and the woman at the parole office told him NY changed the law but I have only found things that say the bill was voted on but not passed into actual law. Anyone know or heard of anything about this?

#2 wztirem

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:37 PM

Laws vary by state but federal law states a felon cannon own and use any type of firearm, black powder gun included.

Have him call the local District Attorney's office.
Regards,

Bill

#3 screamon demon

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 04:47 PM

i am not certain about being a felon but I know that when purchasing a ML your not required to get a background check or for that matter be escorted out of the store (in the case of a big box store i.e. Dick's)

#4 nyantler

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 04:49 PM

Just curious how a muzzleloader would not be considered a firearm?
Joe Servello
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www.nyantler-outdoors.com

#5 wztirem

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:15 PM

i am not certain about being a felon but I know that when purchasing a ML your not required to get a background check or for that matter be escorted out of the store (in the case of a big box store i.e. Dick's)


That is true but nevertheless, its only a phone call to find out if you can legally hunt with a ml if you have ever been convicted of a felony. Consider the alterantive.
Regards,

Bill

#6 covert

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 06:45 PM

Just curious how a muzzleloader would not be considered a firearm?

Not really sure how they decided that myself, but you can order them through the mail without an FFL which you can't do with a "firearm".
"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." - Teddy Roosevelt

#7 skyzmine

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 07:23 PM

Just curious how a muzzleloader would not be considered a firearm?


Because there is no bullet(i.e. ''CENTER-FIRE'' casing, powder, primer & bullet), a muzzleloader needs a 3 part to work with the barrel acting as the casing, with NO gun-powder.

#8 covert

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:05 PM

This passage per the BATFE covers why/which muzzleloaders are not considered firearms and answers the felon question, at least at the Federal level.

http://www.atf.gov/f...collectors.html

C. any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

ATF has previously determined that certain muzzle loading models are firearms and subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). All of these guns incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm that is capable of accepting other barrels designed to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition. Therefore, these muzzle loading models do not meet the definition of “antique firearm” as that term is defined in the above-cited § 921(a)(16) and are “firearms” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)

Furthermore, as firearms, the models described above, as well as other similar models, regardless of installed barrel type, are subject to all provisions of the GCA. Persons who purchase these firearms from licensed dealers are required to fill out ATF Form 4473 and are subject to a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check. Convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from receiving and possessing these firearms.

The following is a list of weapons that load from the muzzle and remain classified as firearms, not antiques, under the purview of the GCA since they incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm:
           

  •  
  • Savage Model 10ML (early, 1st version).
     
  • Mossberg 500 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel.
     
  • Remington 870 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel.
     
  • Mauser 98 rifle with muzzle loading barrel.
     
  • SKS rifle with muzzle loading barrel
     
  • RPB sM10 pistol with muzzle loading barrel.
     
  • H&R/New England Firearm Huntsman.
     
  • Thompson Center Encore/Contender.
     
  • Rossi .50 muzzle loading rifle.
This list is not complete and it frequently changes; therefore, there may be other muzzle loaders also classified as firearms. As noted, any muzzleloader weapon that is built on a firearm frame or receiver falls within the definition of a firearm provided in § 921(a)(3).


"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." - Teddy Roosevelt

#9 Wildcats160

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 08:52 AM

I can tell you this.  I sell guns at Dick's sporting goods and they are incredibly uptight about making sure all gun sales are legal.  There is no NICS check to buy a muzzleloader therefore no way to know if you are a felon.  To this state it's no different from owning a pellet gun.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, I require the same of them."
- The Duke

#10 16. ga hunter

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 08:58 AM

i also think it may be due to the fact that a muzzle loader is not he idea wepon to commit a crime with plus if a felon really "wanted" a gun for crime purposes he would not be shopping at a gun dealer any way

#11 Cabin Fever

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 06:31 AM

This "firearm" definition is from NYSDEC Regs book:

The following are general hunting regulations.
Specific regulations for various game species

are in the Small Game, Big Game and Trapping

sections of this booklet.

DEFINITIONS

Air gun—[/size]a firearm that uses spring or

compressed air (not gunpowder) to propel a

single projectile that is .17 caliber or larger and

produces a muzzle velocity of at least 600 feet

per second. You may use a smooth or rifled bore.

Bow—[/size]includes long (stick), compound, or

recurve bow.

Firearm—[/size]all guns, including handguns, rifles,


shotguns, muzzleloaders and BB and pellet guns.
[size=1]

"It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice." - Wease


#12 retlieut

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 06:57 PM

All you guys are missing the point. NY State PL $00 clearly states that a muzzleloading rifle or shotgun is NOT a firearm, thus it is not going to be a crime for a felon since it is NOT a firearm, A muzzleloading Pistol is NOT a firearm as well BUT if you have the primer. caps etc on your person you MUST have a Pistol Permit. A felon CANNOT have a PISTOL permit. So to be clear YES a felon can hunt with a muzzleloader since the ANTIQUE FIREARM definition clearly states that these muzzleloaders are NOT firearms. The DEC Officer is correct. The woman at the Parole Board is incorrect, tho a Parolee may be barred from MUZZLELOADERS by his Parole not State Law. There are several States that define ANTIQUE FIREARMS as NOT FIREARMS for definition purposes.

#13 bubba

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 08:16 AM

well it depends on the muzzleloader.  If you have a modern ml that can exchange barrels such as an encore, it is a firearm.  Plus they can own a bow and hunt with one also. 

Hunt from your heart and enjoy the outdoors for what it means to you. Don't let other dictate how you should do it and what you should shoot.

But if you ask on here, everyone will tell you how to hunt, including me. So take your chances

 

 

 

In the end we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends will be very loud.

 

 

 

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#14 arrow nocker

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 05:13 PM

I believe you are refering to the muzzle loader shotgun.
When you loose sight of the hunt and focus on the kill its time to regroup and remember why you are there.

#15 skyzmine

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 09:15 PM

just call 911 or your local police office and ask a cop.

#16 Scottieriz

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:16 PM

I am stuck in the same situation as your son is. Under New York State Penal Law section 265.01 starting January 30, 2012 people with felony convictions will no longer be able to own black powder or any muzzle-loading weapon.

#17 ELMER J. FUDD

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 09:44 PM

Am I the only one wondering what did said felons do?

#18 Four Season Whitetails

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 10:38 PM

Really does not matter what the crime was.... I also have a cop friend and he says yupper a muzzleloader is ok to have and hunt with for felons.

#19 erussell

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 01:28 AM

Depends on your parol officer and afterwards what class or rights you have restored. My dumba-- cousin is going through this right now. He just got out of the upstate pen for 5 yrs for being on parole and hunting and taking 2 turkey and a deer without a license. ( dumba-- ) Anyway his PO said he couldnt hunt at all or own a weapon for atleast a yr. Sucks to be him.

http://nycrimbar.org...of%20Rifles.pdf

Edited by erussell, 08 December 2011 - 01:32 AM.

Archers see how far away from a target they can get and still hit the bullseye.
Bowhunters see how close they can get and make a clean kill.


 

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#20 austin

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 06:09 AM

Ok so i have a question. I recieved a felony for carrying a loaded rifle in the state of ny (on the street infront of my house) and also with possesion of an ulawful weapon as a minor. But heres the catch i was 17 years old and i recieved youthful offender which my charges will be expunged from my record in as soon as im off probation in 2 months . will i be able to purchase a RIFLE after my record is sealed no one seems to know. some one told me to just go and try to purchase a gun and see what happens but my older brother had a restraing order on him back in the day and when he applied for a gun he had to right a letter to the fbi stating he did not remember he had the order from almost 2 years prior




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