Doc

What is it that makes us always want to get into somebody else's harvest choices? Kind of pointless isn't it?

Exactly what I was thinking. Everybody used to sacrifice a day off from work/school when they had the Monday opener. So what's the problem with changing that to having everyone at camp sacrifice the prior Friday instead and extend the camp-life activities in that way.

I have been shooting in my basement for decades and have gone through all kinds of different back-stop schemes. The absolute best was a 4' x 4' x 18" deep stack of corrugated cardboard held in a frame that was compressible using a couple 1/2-13 lengths of threaded rod. You shoot into the corrugations. When the center got shot out (after a couple years) I would simply pull it apart and rearrange the cardboard with the unshot ones going in the middle and the shot up ones going along the top and bottom extremes. I never had an arrow bleed through, and there was a cement block wall right behind the butt. Eventually my cardboard butt got donated to my outdoor target and has been out there in a little open sided shed for a couple decades now soaking up arrows just as reliably as it did in my basement. However, for the basement in recent years, I got even lazier and simply set a commercial foam "Block" target down at the other end of the basement. That cement block wall behind the target gives you a little more incentive not to miss.....lol. I don't miss! By the way, without knowing the layout of your basement, I have to mention the safety aspect relative to any staircases or doors. I have a dog-chain thing that I snap across the stairway at the bottom. That has several lengths of surveyors tape dangling from it just to catch anyones attention. When that is across the stairway, it is understood that we have a "HOT" situation and no one is to come down. The stairway is midway through the flight of the arrow.

Elmo- If you are trying to say that accurately shooting a bow requires more practice and mental and physical discipline than accurately shooting a gun (at least for hunting purposes) ..... I agree. There is something quite instinctive about shooting a gun well. Archery accuracy does require some fairly rigid form and execution characteristics and enough practice to turn them into engrained methods of shooting. However, to carry that thought out beyond that point and into such things as hunting dedication and hunting ability and responsibility and ethics really has nothing to do with the difficulty of using either weapon. If you or anyone else is trying to connect up ethics with any particular weapon, you should understand that there is no such connection. Responsible hunting is something that exists between the ears of the hunter and is not dependant on what weapon he/she is carrying.

So, just how do you prove one way or another that a product actually worked? How do you prove one is better than the other? Until somebody can figure out how to sit down and conduct an interview with a deer, I'm not sure how I would ever get any level of confidence in any of it. That includes those expensive scent-lock garments as well.....lol. Does any of it work? ...... Prove it!

I'm thinking that no one here can tell you what kind of deer will make you feel you've had a successful season. We all tend to get too involved in trying to tell people that all ready. I would suggest that you don't need anybody's permission or approval with a personal choice such as this. Just figure it all out for yourself and apologize to no one regardless of which way you choose to go.

I am not in love with the DMP system and I believe there are flaws in the establishment of quotas and all that. However, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater. As flawed as the system is, it still does a reasonable job of controlling populations. It certainly is better than anything else that I have ever heard suggested. And it is WAY better than just arbitrarily handing out either-sex tags to every gunner. That would be a complete surrender on any type of managed population control.

Last year's deer was a mess. I finally theorized that he got the crap kicked out of him and then had some kind of encounter with some toothy critter that took afew chunks of meat out of his rump area. The wounds look like a combination of things. LOL .... No that messed up rear is not the result of a sloppy gutting job. That's the way he was when I finally got up to him.

Well actually the effect of wind would be dependant on bow poundage and arrow weight. Also it would depend on what angle the wind is blowing to the path of the arrow. I think wind can effect the stability of how the arrow flies as well. That can't be good. But if I were a "tree-stander", I would be more concerned about being blown out of my stand. Another thought is that if your tree is waving around doesn't that make your shot similar to trying to shoot a moving target?? ..... lol.

Are we getting tired of beating ourselves up yet? You know, no matter what you ever get involved with, there will always be a certain amount of people that can't seem to do it right ........ so what? Must we drone on and on about all the faults that some hunters have. What is this perverse pleasure we seem to get out of declaring how bad our activity is because there are some who make mistakes and errors in judgement. Frankly I would rather save all this crap for conversation with those who actually need it.

Frankly, I can't say that I am impressed so far .... lol.

Frankly I don't believe they can give an accurate count even though they seem to always make some attempt at coming up with their statistical counts. They even publish bucks per square mile stats for those that want to read about that. Their methods regard some fairly complex statistical formulas and methods that are based on harvest results (which also have some heavy statiscal calculations involved) and other pieces of field data. There are interactive assumptions, factors, historical data, and estimates that all are involved in the final numbers. At least that is what I have gathered from years of partial explanations from various DEC documents and personel. I have to say that I am very skeptical of any process that has no tangible on-the-ground verification process. It takes a large amount of blind faith to just accept the numbers as being gospel. Particularly when there have been years when huge adjustments had to be made in permits to re-balance some wildly out of control populations. But, they will point to their professional statistical institutions that have audited their processes and found them to be valid. You can take that for whatever it is worth. But if you are still a bit skeptical, understand that you are not alone in that. Something that massive and complicated and with so many different assumptions that are based on so many other assumptions with never a single bit of evidence of success, is a pretty tough deal to swallow.

Sorry to have been so late replying to this topic. I have been out in the woods almost every available minute since my "peep-sight" eye recovered. I decided to take this afternoon off since a near-hurricane has developed .... lol. So, I finally located this thread and will have a go at giving you an idea of what you have with the Stid Hill state land. I can tell you all about the Stid Hill State Land. I have hunted it exclusively since before it was state land. I understand that you have safety concerns. I never know how to answer that because anytime you are dealing with any public property, the hunter density is almost always guaranteed to be quite high, and with that comes that uneasy feeling. Everyone has a different tolerance level for high density hunting. I have become quite accustomed to hunting defensively, and feel fairly safe there. Certain days are worse than others. Obviously opening day is the busiest, however, even before lunch time shooting has died down, deer are locked up tight in whatever survival tactics they have found and most of the hunters are heading out of the woods for an extended lunch. That's a mixed blessing because once they have left, the only ones remaining are the dyed-in-the-wool sitters, and no one seems to want to stillhunt anymore. Consequently the deer are hunkered down in deep survival mode and no one is there to get them on their feet. The shooting drops off to near nothing. I frankly liked it the way it used to be with guys swarming all over every nook and cranny. It was like a huge drive with deer running everywhere. But then that was decades ago and is now ancient history. So now, amazingly enough, the place is extremely safe but no longer all that productive. Even the first sunday is quiet except for a bit of noise, here and there during the first hour of the day (and maybe a few shots well before .... lol). Weekdays, it gets to be hard to imagine there is a season open it's so quiet. And yet the deer do not go back to pre-season patterns. There's just enough activity to keep them in super-survival mode. Last year I thought the first snow would bring the hunters out. Nope! .... not that much. So what good is all this land if deer are sitting tight every daylight hour and no one is moving them. That's where you have to change tactics a bit (or at least that's what I do). After opening day, it's time to get up and still-hunt. Nobody else is going to move the deer for you, so you have to go find them. The best way for this particular chunk of state land is to climb that cardiac hill and get high. Once at the ridge, you will find spots where you can look down on little plateaus. Walking north or south along the rim of the valley (very, very, very, slowly) looking down on these little "benches", its just a matter of time before you will spot an ear, a tail, a tine, or maybe the whole form of a bedded deer. When snow is on the ground this tactic is deadly! It's a lot of work, and I'm not sure how much longer I will be able to do it, but that is about the best way to hunt the area that I know of during gun season. There is another situation that is developing down in the valley bottom, and that is the serious invasion of multi-flora rose. This stuff is taking over large areas and making them almost impossible to walk through. Basically their thorns are shaped with a reversed point to them that once you get snagged into it, the harder you pull back the deeper the thorns go. Amazingly, you will see all kinds of deer tracks going in and they don't seem to have any problem getting through. So in effect, you have these huge areas of deer sanctuary that few people have ever figured how to hunt. There are a few of these that over the years I have discovered ways into. Some of them actually open up a bit in the middle. These areas are harder than hell to hunt (Especially two people together) but these are the places where I have seen some bucks of pretty good size. It's tough going because cover is thick, it's full of old dead tag alders and thick red osier, occasional standing water of various depths, willows and other things that are quite noisy under foot.... (not exactly perfect still-hunting conditions). I don't believe some of the bigger deer ever come out of these places in daylight hours throughout the season. A word about hunting in these deep, narrow valley areas ..... you can count on constant frustration regarding switch-back winds. the terrain is so screwed up that the thermals in every ravine or gulley plays tricks on wind direction and you will never have your wind direction under control for any length of time. As far as my estimate of the deer population here, I can only say it is very spotty this year and it has gotten worse since the beginning stages of rut has kicked in. There does seem to be something unusual happening this year regarding bucks. I have had 3 cameras out since July. As of today, I only have 9 buck pictures out of 348 pictures. And the first of those didn't occur until October 23. Compared to last year that is horrible. Rubs and scrapes are very scarce. I honestly didn't get the impression that that many were taken last year, but these camera results are downright weird and I really don't have any explanations. Of course one thing to remember is that the Stid Hill land is quite large and I have no idea what is happening at the other end. It could be completely different. Well there, I have completed my mini-book ..... lol. I hope something in this reply will be of some use to you.

It's interesting how these topics keep coming up. Everybody seems to like these deals where they get an opportunity to brag to the world about this buck and that buck that they passed up and how they are a hunter of such high expertise that it is beneath them to harvest any buck that doesn't live up to this standard or that standard. It's kind of like some weird measuring stick that some people need to determine who is the great hunter and who is not..... lol. I find it all kind of silly, but am beginning to understand that it apparently is just human nature. Frankly, I could care less about what size buck anyone gets or how many inches it's rack measures. Who cares? Does it go into some records book? who cares? I don't own the book and it means absolutely nothing to me. Sure I admire a good buck with a jillion points, but I also recognize that 90.99% of the biggest bucks are more or less lucky accidents. So, if someone gets a super, multi-pointed buck ..... great! If someone shoots a fork .... good for them. Hell, if they get a doe, they will get a congratulations from me. And I won't waste one minute trying to preach to them how they should have let it pass or denigrating an achievement that they are obviously proud of. I think too many of us get all tangled up in that sort of ego-inflation at the expense of others. I want hunters to feel good about their successes rather than trying to pass judgement and make them wish they had never taken up hunting.

Best story I ever heard was one a guy at work told me. Apparently he got up early and headed out for his stand that was across a creek and up on top of a hill. So he crossed the creek and was about half way up the hill when he heard something real heavy cracking branches and crashing through the leaves on a dead run right at him. This great big black animal came flying by brushing past his leg. Apparently some time after he had left, someone let the family dog (a huge black lab) out to do his business and he decided to take up my buddy's trail instead. I guess he let out a bit of a less than manly scream ..... lol. It was a funny story, but I think if something like that were ever to happen to me, I probably wouldn't think it was all that funny.

I agree with this 100%, and I might also add that being a forum moderator does not mean that any of us forfeits their right to have and express opinions.

I am a two-season deer hunter. The "them" that I refer to are those gun hunters who want to start some sort of devisive battle with another segment of fellow hunters. I think you qualify as one of "them".

It remains to be seen if many gun hunters will even take on the added challenges of a crossbow just to get into the bowseason with all the benefits. There are a whole lot of people who don't want anything to do with anything but their favorite deer rifle/shotgun. I suspect they would simply like bowhunters to go away .....lol. I think it is probably a lot easier to just sit back and whine than to be forced into taking up a ne kind of weapon. I do expect that whining to get a whole lot louder. We'll see what happens.

Yes and I think I've pretty much got his number as to why he would desire to declare war on bowhunters. This isn't the first time I've heard this kind of thing, and always further discussion leads to the real motives behind the comments.

Other than the opening day of gunseason, and a few of the more productive gun hunting days, almost all of my gun season is spent still hunting. It has been a very productive way of hunting once the deer have been put into their super survival mode by the onslaught of the guns. Bow season still finds me hunting from the ground, but strictly in a stationary fashion in a constructed ground blind or some convenient blow-down if I can find one.

The fact is that this guy, 308shooter represents a growing number of gun hunters that simply are looking at bowhunters as being an enemy within the hunter ranks that are taking their deer. I don't think it really has anything to do with wounded this and wounded that. It has more to do with the fact that bowhunters get first crack at their deer each season. I think it is also a jealous reaction to the fact that bowhunter success is now becoming fairly high and a fairly high quantity of very impressive trophies are being taken by bowhunters. Imagine how it must have frosted this guy to read some of the threads that talked about how these bowhunter upstarts are now now getting "chosey" about hunting only for mature bucks. We are no longer content with taking bucks out of the possible harvest when gun season finally gets here, but we are now talking about taking only the very best. Every buck that a bowhunter takes represents a buck that they have been deprived of. I've heard that sentiment expressed over and over. And now we are getting so good at what we do that we can pick and chose.....lol. I have heard these kinds of remarks being made by an ever growing number of gun hunters. If you need a few more samples just check out the letters in New York Outdoor News in just about any issue. Back in the days of recurves, and longbows, bowhunters were few and viewed as a bit of an oddity. It was understood that bowhunters weren't much of an influence on deer populations and more specifically, bucks. So when we had our own little season, nobody worried about giving the bowhunters some extra time and some liberalized rules, and even allowing this rag-tag little bunch of bowhunters first crack at the deer herd. What harm could that be? Fast forward a few decades with the introduction of compounds and other gadgets and go-fasters, and all of a sudden bowhunters are reaping even longer seasons, and larger bag limits, and actually are successfully harvesting some rather huge deer. That has gotten the attention, (and the jealousy) of more than a few gunners. Don't be too shocked by these negative comments directed toward bowhunters. It's getting to be a little louder under-current as these people realize that the only way to get a piece of this kind of action is through taking on additional challenges that they are not willing to do. So the only reaction left to them is to start up these kinds of whining arguments and simply declare war on bowhunters. Also, the pressure to get bigger and bigger deer and the resulting measurement of success becoming inches of antler as driven by TV has only aggravated the situation as gun hunters begin to see bow-harvested trophies as being animals taken out of their pool of the necessary potential trophies. Anytime they want, they can turn on the TV and see whatever hunter-hero that is on at the moment, passing up some monsterous bucks and finally arrowing some gigantic monster. I have noticed that they don't even feature that many gun hunting programs anymore. In the minds of a lot of gunners, it all points toward opportunities being removed from gun season and being given to bowhunters. I've watched this all coming, and I fully expect it to get much worse as our bowhunting equipment continues to improve and harvest success ratios continue to increase. And none of this nonsense really has anything to do with wounding losses. It's just plain ol' human nature at work.

You know, that arrogant attitude is more than likely just an act for TV. Kind of like Rush Limbaugh who made a fortune making people mad at him because of his radio persona. Frankly I never took that arrogance thing very seriously, and always enjoyed Tred's program. Also, I try not to hate someone because they are rich. Actually, while his hunting is not my adopted style of bowhunting, I always thought that his hunting "the hard way" really epitomizes what bowhunting is all about. It's the challenges that make it worth doing, and I guess those that insist in a very public way that that is the proper way to bowhunt, and actually keep at it until they are successful, usually aren't very popular with those that can't or won't take on those challenges. yeah he gets a little over-excited at times, but I won't fault the guy for that. That infectious enthusiasm was one of the things that made his show so much better than all the others. There was always a certain honesty to it all and I never saw any evidence that mistakes and errors wound up on the cutting room floor. You saw it all ...... warts and all. That made it one of the few hunting programs that had credibility and didn't look polished, sanitized and all cleaned up to make the hunter-hero appear to be perfect. Well, now life has thrown an even bigger challenge his way, and it appears he is up to that challenge too. I doubt I could handle it as well as he apparently has.

This sort of thing seems to happen a lot with people that have their livlihood tied to their hunting. There seems to be an overwhelming pressure to produce, and all too often that extends to legal means or otherwise.

Ok, the eye is usable again. I went out today and did a lot of shooting and found out I can shoot pretty good as long as I stay within 25 yards. The eye is still pretty blurry, but it doesn't have that big an effect on my shooting. What I did find out was that today being a cloudy day, I had to quit about 15 minutes before the legal time. but even that will get better with time. Still putting in those damned drops, but we are down to 2 per day now. Unfortunately, the hunting stunk tonite. a bit too much wind and the wind direction was primarily opposite of what was forecast and was pretty much circling. I guess I understand why the bigger bucks like to hang around that ravine. There is almost no way of getting the best of them when it comes to the wind direction around that deep gully. Well anyway, the first part of my season got hammered by the weather, and the eye took care of another bunch of it. But now I'm back. Now I'll be trying to salvage what's left. I know there's deer out there if I can just close in on where the daytime activity is happening.

Tonight I would have welcomed a chipmunk clucking. What a boring hunt. Not even a squirrel. In fact I don't think I even saw a bird.