Study: Whitetail Deer in Central New York - An alternative to Antler restriction

[covert]

I just finished reading the proposal and I have a couple questions.

1) It mentioned that the "width" restriction would protect the button bucks but doesn't explain how.  I don't understand how forcing people to harvest more antlerless deer will result in fewer button bucks being killed.  Please elaborate.

2) My 9pt I posted in the "Taxidermy" thread was 5 years old and dressed 175 lbs.  (I learned how to age deer by the teeth in my Wildlife Management class in college and it was also checked by a man who worked at a NYSDEC check station and he agreed on the age.)  His rack doesn't exceed the width of his ears.  How much longer would he have lived in the wild if this system were in place and I wasn't allowed to take him?  How much bigger would he have gotten?  If his rack never grew wide enough would the waste of a prime animal be justified to satisfy a randomly assigned rack size requirement?

I know that second one actually had three questions built in, but please, just humor me.   They are all serious questions, I'm not trying to stone you, I would honestly like to hear your explanations

[nyantler]

I have no agenda... just stating my opinion. I couldn't care less how you guys hunt.. I'll enjoy it any way they give it to me.. My standards will always be higher than what ever the DEC can come up with anyway. Any definitely higher than all yours. And covert.. I'll bet your buck has a spread wider than 14" .. you don't have to be a genius to see the buck you got is a mature buck.. you just keep coming up with more ridiculous ways to try and prove your nonsensical points.

[nyantler]

As for my website.. you will find no promotion of QDM at all there.. just a couple paragraphs about my personal hunting preference.. but nice try slowhand. The website is strictly for entertainment. Don't tell me you don't enjoy a good hunting story.

[covert]

And covert.. I'll bet your buck has a spread wider than 14" .. you don't have to be a genius to see the buck you got is a mature buck.. you just keep coming up with more ridiculous ways to try and prove your nonsensical points.

I really don't know how wide it is, I never cared enough to measure it.  I know it's a mature buck, I'm just going by "The use of selective harvest criteria "width outside the ears"" from the proposal.  I didn't try to make any point, nonsensical or otherwise, I just asked a couple questions about what I read in the proposal.

Also it states on pg 19 "This should lead to more ethical deer hunting, and reduced button buck harvest as well.".  I didn't say it wouldn't, I merely asked how it would?

[nyantler]

its not antlers outside the ears... its 14" which is inside the ears.. but if you use the ears as a guide and the antlers are at least as wide as the ears the buck will be legal.. The idea is to shoot mature bucks not see how close we can come to 14 inches. Sorry about the "nonsensical point" comment that was out of line.

[covert]

Thank you for explaining that.  The way I understood as I read it was the antlers had to be wider than the ears.  Just looking for clarification.

As far as the other comment goes I wasn't too worried about it.  It's not that hard to get hot and type something you normally wouldn't say to someone in person so I try not to take it to heart.   I've been guilty of it myself.

[Griff]

Wow this is CRAZY, I thought this was a hunting forum. Not a forum of who's opinion is the best for the future of deer hunting. I can only hope that you have a great season and take a deer that makes you happy.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Whats crazy about it? Its a discussion based on opinions and ideas, exactly what you normally find on forums. 

[nyantler]

And there is nothing like a little spirited debate to get the blood flowing.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Not much debating going on....the AR's won't address questions...or can't.

Still waiting NY

[nyantler]

Not sure about the button buck thing... usually reduced button buck harvest would be attributed to the doe harvest. Not killing lone does, but waiting for mutiple does so that you can compare size and take the bigger does. This helps reduce the killing of button bucks which are a bit small on average compared a mature doe.

[nyantler]

What question are you specifically referring to that I haven't already answered? Culver

[Doc]

its not antlers outside the ears... its 14" which is inside the ears.. but if you use the ears as a guide and the antlers are at least as wide as the ears the buck will be legal.. The idea is to shoot mature bucks not see how close we can come to 14 inches. Sorry about the "nonsensical point" comment that was out of line.

If we are still talking about the PPT slide show linked in the original post of this thread, "Antlers outside the ears" is the exact phrase mentioned several times on page 20 of the powerpoint presentation. Perhaps I have missed the context of this comment.

Doc

[nyantler]

I stand corrected... outside the ears is their criteria.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

What question are you specifically referring to that I haven't already answered? Culver

My long post on page one. just seems to me that some of their conclusions don't make sense

[wztirem]

You can dress this up anyway you want - AR, QDM, herd management, bigger & healthier deer, mature bucks, ..

They all eventually produce more trophy class bucks for the hunter.

The original listing's attachment stated a benifit of the plan was more available record book bucks!

Whitetails have survived in nature for millenniums, until humans almost eradicated them.

Why not allow them to be as they were without our interference?

Believe it or not, none of us have the credentials to play God.

True, they have survived in nature for millenniums but their present population and range is far greater today than in any other time and still increasing due to the actions of the human race. Hunters today are population control specialists used by DNR's to safeguard the habitat, protect the public and to keep populations under control (sic). Your support of QDM,AR and the like is tantamount to playing God so who is kidding who?

[nyantler]

My long post on page one. just seems to me that some of their conclusions don't make sense

Well to you maybe they don't .. to me they do.

[nyantler]

Someone answer me why is it a bad thing to have more trophy class bucks? I'm not getting that one

[phade]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven. 

[phade]

Someone answer me why is it a bad thing to have more trophy class bucks? I'm not getting that one

I think the devil is in the details.

[TheHunter]

My long post on page one. just seems to me that some of their conclusions don't make sense

Well to you maybe they don't .. to me they do.

They make sense to a majority of NY hunters as well, its just the brown its down crowd that doesn't want it to make sense.

[adk3006]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven.

If you like Ohio's management system, quit hunting in New York State and go hunt Ohio!  Don't forget to bring your wallet either.$$$$$

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven.

If you like Ohio's management system, quit hunting in New York State and go hunt Ohio!  Don't forget to bring your wallet either.$$$$$

Ohio is still cheap to hunt. Plenty of public land with good hunting. Why would you tell someone that would like the system here to improve that they should move rather than try and make a difference?

[phade]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven.

If you like Ohio's management system, quit hunting in New York State and go hunt Ohio!  Don't forget to bring your wallet either.$$$$$

You may want to re-read. In reference to the group's proposal, I never said..."I, me, we,".....I said "they"...which last I remember from school, meant a group that "I" was not a part of. My only insertion was my opinion of Ohio's system, and the relative lack of awareness of developing a "system" that likely isn't as good as what is already available for adoption.

That said, Ohio should be the state all other state's look to, to manage their deer. They balance biology, hunters, and finances. They balance the trio perfectly.

And, one of the best counter points to your lovely statement...ever look at the cost of an out-of-state license for Ohio vs. NY. Bet you can't guess which one costs more to deer hunt a season (bow/gun/mz)?

[adk3006]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven.

If you like Ohio's management system, quit hunting in New York State and go hunt Ohio!  Don't forget to bring your wallet either.$$$$$

You may want to re-read. In reference to the group's proposal, I never said..."I, me, we,".....I said "they"...which last I remember from school, meant a group that "I" was not a part of. My only insertion was my opinion of Ohio's system, and the relative lack of awareness of developing a "system" that likely isn't as good as what is already available for adoption.

That said, Ohio should be the state all other state's look to, to manage their deer. They balance biology, hunters, and finances. They balance the trio perfectly.

And, one of the best counter points to your lovely statement...ever look at the cost of an out-of-state license for Ohio vs. NY. Bet you can't guess which one costs more to deer hunt a season (bow/gun/mz)?

From what I read "Follow Ohio's deer managment and life will be great", this sure sounded like you want all of us hunters in NY to do as Ohio does.  Who would life be great for?  Oh yes, all the guys that think hunting is about how much rack a buck has.  I have no idea of license fees in Ohio but good luck finding prime land in prime deer country in Ohio for a reasonable price.