Study: Whitetail Deer in Central New York - An alternative to Antler restriction

[steve863]

Come on steve, rather than cherry pick or throw stats out there from other poorly managed states or make snide remarks, why dont you answer some of the questions being presented to you?

Exactly what questions are YOU asking me here??  I am giving my opinion here of what I think would happen if we adopted Ohio's ways and YOU guys are giving yours.  Absolutely NONE of us knows for sure what would really happen.  If you think your opinions hold any more value than mine and are more likely to make hunting better in NY, you can continue believing it to your hearts delight!  All I can tell you is that you shouldn't hold your breath that NY will be adopting Ohio's ways any time soon!

[WNYBuckHunter]

Im not just saying the questions I have asked. If you want to know, its simple, just use the little rectangle on the right edge of your browser window and scroll to see them. In no way have I said that my opinions are better than yours, but I do say for sure that not changing anything will not improve anything and will in fact, make it worse. I just think you are too smart to be one of the cherry picking, snide remark goofballs that pull drive bys on people's opinions. I know you have an opinion and would love to hear about it and discuss it. Dont worry, I dont hold my breath for things, especially for things that have to do with NY and politics. 

[TheHunter]

questions are YOU asking me here??  I am giving my opinion here of what I think would happen if we adopted Ohio's ways and YOU guys are giving yours.  Absolutely NONE of us knows for sure what would really happen.  If you think your opinions hold any more value than mine and are more likely to make hunting better in NY, you can continue believing it to your hearts delight!  All I can tell you is that you shouldn't hold your breath that NY will be adopting Ohio's ways any time soon!

Problem is most of you guys do not want ANY CHANGE period.  As fairgame and other pointed out, you complain about any single change for the better of the hunters, deer, whatever it may be. 

You need to realize, you are the minority. Change will happen, I'm just happy at least AR's are in my area, and that will not change any time soon.  I'd be all for adopting Ohio's structure, anything that will better the hunting experiance for everyone. If AR's did not work they would have removed them, guess what, they have not gone anywhere. 

[Fairgame]

The more people want change, the more chance of it happening. Change happened in my area cause the people wanted it. It doesnt have to be ARs cause I'm sure there is better than what we have.  But I'm pretty positive in saying that any change would be better than what most of the state has.

Hunting is a tradition.

3 inch spike rule shouldnt be considered a tradition.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

This is so simple...I really wish we could put this to a vote and require all hunters buying a license next your to Vote on the adoption of a plan. That would put an end to this. I think the "majority" that I keep hearing about might surprise you ...kind of like talking about AR and not doing it yourself.....make the hunters choose and let the chips fall where they may. what the hell....so many of us get  the "what is best for the majority" crammed down aour throats on so amny topics...why not this one too. ....firearms restrictions...increased property taxes....this health care farce...global warming....

WNY --I agree with most of what you post...but I think these guys are the doom and gloom. I have been hunting for 30 years....not a weekend but all season...been bowhunting for 25. The hunting is by FAR a lot better than it was when I started and I see better and more deer every year. I don't see NY hunting as dying. But I do see access as far worse....and when people see the $$$ in the biger racks...it will get even worse yet...NY does have HUGE tracts of public land....most of it piss poor whitetail habitat.....want to better it ---log it.....but good luck getting that past the tree huggers...that won't be stopped by the hunters....it will be by the NYC liberal panty waists

[burmjohn]

There is already plans to manage the state forest resources... http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/64567.html

[SteveB]

Just to be clear - I asked John to post the article because it makes a strong case for why points based AR does not always work for its desired outcome in a lot of areas. I did not support this proposal either as a mandatory program and fought hard against it. The reaction to it was overwhelmingly negative and it and the group faded quickly.The problem was its success would depend on and severely increase the push for limited pressure.  Many of the original 20 group members where part of groups that had exclusive rights to large areas with few hunters. Without a doubt, the type of program would result in an increase in bigger bucks. As soon as this started to happen, every bit of private land in those 3 units would be a prized, valuable, costly target for hunting access to be locked up and controlled. The majority of hunters living there would be shut out - they would either be increasing the pressure on the public land (which with poor habitat would not see corresponding improvement) or quit. Just ask the residents of Pike County where they hunt since its become the big buck place - its not close to home.

The program would have worked, but the results would end up being enjoyed by but a handful of hunters. That's why it had intense opposition and why it failed. Be careful what you wish for.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There is already plans to manage the state forest resources... http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/64567.html

I can see how they will pull that off in the accessible areas....I wonder how it will work in the remote High peak regions...They will be filming one of those Discovery channel reality shows up there...lol

[SteveB]

I have a 500 acre state forest - Frozen Ocean - bordering me.

70 to 80% row planted old pine with noting growing underneath.

They started clear cutting sections 3 years ago - the new growth and habitat recovery is amazing.

Hope the program continues.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Started it down by me at beaver dam state forest...just the last few years though. My lease gets logged in 5 years so I am looking forward to that as well...nothing like new growth to draw them in...besides crops i guess...lol

[WNYBuckHunter]

WNY --I agree with most of what you post...but I think these guys are the doom and gloom. I have been hunting for 30 years....not a weekend but all season...been bowhunting for 25. The hunting is by FAR a lot better than it was when I started and I see better and more deer every year. I don't see NY hunting as dying. But I do see access as far worse....and when people see the $$$ in the biger racks...it will get even worse yet...NY does have HUGE tracts of public land....most of it piss poor whitetail habitat.....want to better it ---log it.....but good luck getting that past the tree huggers...that won't be stopped by the hunters....it will be by the NYC liberal panty waists

I understand what you are saying, and I think that hunting in my area is pretty good as well. I do see the huge losses in hunter numbers in NY as very troubling though. All that does is weaken our sport in this state, and I feel that is not a good thing due to the "NYC libera panty waists" that dont just want to control things like logging, etc. They want to put an end to hunting. I just feel that we need to do something in NY that is really viable to improve the system for the long run, not just some gitchy programs.

[Larry]

The first time this proposal came out was about 5 or 6 years ago it was a group that had 20000 acres they at the time wanted to have people come to hunt for pay. The wanted a rule change in 7f, j, and h to a spread requirement at the time one of the numbers they provided had a NYC area code. They claimed their proposal would benefit the deer and hunters but they didn’t tell anyone it would also benefit their wallets.  >

[Geno C]

i think eventually there will be a change perhaps a new structure that has never been practiced in NY. what that may be and when, i have no idea. but i do not think a change is necisarelly a bad thing and i support what ever the DEC/DNR implement...

i do believe that NY has areas that can compete with deer being harvested out west inwhich antler size and matority of an animal is similar... i do not think it is critical to have a state where big  big deer are of the norm and  i do not for see that happening here anytime soon (state wide).

does anyone here think that if a structure was implemented here in NY to target growth of bigger deer that the state would do so as a level of extra income of the sort?? like how hunters across the east coast will travel and spend money on these farms in , iowa, ohio, kansas and so on? i am just curious to see if anyone here thinks that maybe a reason to do somthing like this would be for a added income source to the state??

oh and also does one think if NY was to ever grow deer like out west that this would intise more future hunters??

just asking...

[SteveB]

does anyone here think that if a structure was implemented here in NY to target growth of bigger deer that the state would do so as a level of extra income of the sort??

I addressed that in my post above. That extra income wil benefit few hunters and hurt them in the long run - just as it has all over at the midwest destination big buck areas. There is too much business in hunting now as is.

[Geno C]

im not saying i support such statement... but it almost would not suprise me that the thought has crossed their minds to bring extra income to the state. and yes i agree the buiness end in hunting is a huge industry.

[burmjohn]

The first time this proposal came out was about 5 or 6 years ago it was a group that had 20000 acres they at the time wanted to have people come to hunt for pay. The wanted a rule change in 7f, j, and h to a spread requirement at the time one of the numbers they provided had a NYC area code. They claimed their proposal would benefit the deer and hunters but they didn’t tell anyone it would also benefit their wallets.  >

Where did it state they wanted people to pay for hunting and what does having a NYC area code have to do with anything.  If they own the land, does it matter what part of the state they reside in, even if it was a different state?

[burmjohn]

i think eventually there will be a change perhaps a new structure that has never been practiced in NY. what that may be and when, i have no idea. but i do not think a change is necisarelly a bad thing and i support what ever the DEC/DNR implement...

i do believe that NY has areas that can compete with deer being harvested out west inwhich antler size and matority of an animal is similar... i do not think it is critical to have a state where big  big deer are of the norm and  i do not for see that happening here anytime soon (state wide).

does anyone here think that if a structure was implemented here in NY to target growth of bigger deer that the state would do so as a level of extra income of the sort?? like how hunters across the east coast will travel and spend money on these farms in , iowa, ohio, kansas and so on? i am just curious to see if anyone here thinks that maybe a reason to do somthing like this would be for a added income source to the state??

oh and also does one think if NY was to ever grow deer like out west that this would intise more future hunters??

just asking...

The thing is, I think a majority of folks, like me, that want some type of change is not in it for the $$$ aspect.  We are in it to have a normal more mature herd.  There are area's in the state where the herd is in perfectly fine condition, and there are area's where the average buck taken is a 1.5 spike.  NY is NY, out west is out west.  I have no interest in becoming the west, nor do I want to hunt for deer or bear other then the state I reside in and hunt in.  However, I am for some type of change, including restriction, that would allow the opportunity for everyone in NY to harvest a more mature buck and allow the herd to mature to a more natural state.  There are area's in NY where your average buck is over 130+, and that is where the resistance is.  They don't see the need for change, why? Because there is no need for change there.  It boggles my mind why those folks would be so resistant to some type of change when it would not effect their hunting experience one bit. Hunting in an AR zone has changed my outlook, i see what happens as a result.  The result has not only increased the amount of (now legal) bucks, its increased the normal activity of a deer herd such as sparring, rutting, breading and territorial activities.  I see more activity now on trail cams, during hunting then ever before. 

[Geno C]

i agree... im not saying hunters per say are in it for the $$ becasue there is not real benefit to the avergae hunter... i just asked if in regards to the state with the money thing. im not refering to hunters.

i do not think a restriction would be a bad thing either... however these are all decsions made above mine and your pay grade and im not sure how the "hunters voice" can impact that. i would think if it is sot happen it will, NO?

[burmjohn]

Hunters will only have a voice if you voice it   Ok maybe tomorrow we start the Hunting NY Party?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Of course the state would make more money. They would collect on logging rights for state lands, increased license sales, increased tax revenue from sporting goods sales to motel rooms. Why would that be a bad thing?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The problem is, a lot people *think* the minority want to change how we manage deer in NY (AR, QDM, 1 buck, shorter season, etc). 

However, the reality is the majority wants a change.

I am not busting you chops, but what poll, study is that statement based on?

[SteveB]

Again - the reason this proposal had overwhelming oppostion was that the benefits would have come to few with the majority being hurt. Also this proposal made a strong case for why points based AR IN THOSE WMU's would be a poor management choice. I posted it to demonstrate how difficult it is to impliment a statewide restriction because of the varibles in different areas. And to support my opinion the best way for change is threw continued education and example - not a blanket restriction that could seriously harm some areas.

[nyantler]

Again - the reason this proposal had overwhelming oppostion was that the benefits would have come to few with the majority being hurt. Also this proposal made a strong case for why points based AR IN THOSE WMU's would be a poor management choice. I posted it to demonstrate how difficult it is to impliment a statewide restriction because of the varibles in different areas. And to support my opinion the best way for change is threw continued education and example - not a blanket restriction that could seriously harm some areas.

I agree that the best way for change is through continued education... then there would be no need for  Mandatory AR ...just seems like hunters resist listening to what they are being taught.  And refuse to make any changes on their own to help manage the herds in their areas

[SteveB]

Change may be slower thru education, but I see it happening around me in 7J.

A lot more hunters holding out for older deer then where do so even 5 years ago.

[Geno C]

Of course the state would make more money. They would collect on logging rights for state lands, increased license sales, increased tax revenue from sporting goods sales to motel rooms. Why would that be a bad thing?

the bad thing would to implement a structure based on those rulings alone... to me it would be a decision based upon revenue for the state then the actual deer herd itself. thats what im asking and that is what i am getting at...