The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[Skillet]

And there in lies the problem.. many of you really care nothing about the whitetail or it's conservation. That's okay until you start complaining that there isn't the quality or number of deer to your liking.

The only quality I care about in a deer is the meat. People shooting a deer legally and reporting it is not going to decimate herd numbers, regardless of age class.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Skillet

[hb270deermanager]

I have always been a fan of this practice especially

since I have put more bigger racked bucks on my wall.

We as sportsmen need to see the value in this practice

We need to practice Q.D.M.A. also if your a meat hunter

take moer does its all part of a better management system

[dave6x6]

Geeze skillet, A hug and a mydol should help

[Skillet]

Geeze skillet, A hug and a mydol should help

Yes, it is that time of the month for me Dave.

[nyantler]

The only quality I care about in a deer is the meat. People shooting a deer legally and reporting it is not going to decimate herd numbers, regardless of age class.

That would be fine if it was just about herd numbers... and again that proves my point.. only caring about deer as meat does little for preserving whitetails or conservation... and again there in lies the problem in NY.

[Skillet]

That would be fine if it was just about herd numbers... and again that proves my point.. only caring about deer as meat does little for preserving whitetails or conservation... and again there in lies the problem in NY.

But caring about the age of your bucks does? How does a large rack, or a gene that produces a large rack, have anything to do with actual herd health? You are singling out a certain aspect of herd "health" which is desirable to you, and trying to say that is is a significant part of an overall healthy herd.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Skillet

[nyantler]

But caring about the age of your bucks does? How does a large rack, or a gene that produces a large rack, have anything to do with actual herd health? You are singling out a certain aspect of herd "health" which is desirable to you, and trying to say that is is a significant part of an overall healthy herd.

No I am taking about buck age structure as a part of managing a healthy herd... you're talking about how the herd meets your needs, not about herd management. Age structure as I see it has little to do with rack size and more to do with balancing the structure of the herd. So called, meat hunters care only about herd numbers and nothing about total herd management as it relates to available habitat.. for that matter they care little about the habitat either. Anyone who doesn't understand how age structure benefits overall herd health knows nothing about deer management... ignoring buck age structure and buck:doe ratios... is like leaving the outmeal out of an outmeal cookie and still calling it an outmeal cookie!! Nobody is singling out one aspect of anything, just adding it the recipe... it's the one thing that has been missing from proper deer management in New York. The fact that you and many other hunters don't understand that doesn't change the fact that it's so.

Edited August 6, 2012 by nyantler

[Skillet]

No I am taking about buck age structure as a part of managing a healthy herd... you're talking about how the herd meets your needs, not about herd management. Age structure as I see it has little to do with rack size and more to do with balancing the structure of the herd. So called, meat hunters care only about herd numbers and nothing about total herd management as it relates to available habitat.. for that matter they care little about the habitat either. Anyone who doesn't understand how age structure benefits overall herd health knows nothing about deer management... ignoring buck age structure and buck:doe ratios... is like leaving the outmeal out of an outmeal cookie and still calling it an outmeal cookie!! Nobody is singling out one aspect of anything, just adding it the recipe... it's the one thing that has been missing from proper deer management in New York. The fact that you and many other hunters don't understand that doesn't change the fact that it's so.

You sure are an arrogant one. You're also the same guy who said you didn't care if hunters left the sport because of AR. Anyone who doesn't understand or care how detrimental hunter loss is to our sport, is a blowhard. Whatever you say joe. Just because YOU say something (repeatedly, in most cases) doesn't make it so.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Skillet

[nyantler]

You sure are an arrogant one. You're also the same guy who said you didn't care if hunters left the sport because of AR. Anyone who doesn't understand or care how detrimental hunter loss is to our sport, is a blowhard. Whatever you say joe. Just because YOU say something (repeatedly, in most cases) doesn't make it so.

LOL.. I'm pretty sure I never said that... hunter participation is another part of the deer management equation. There is a difference between arrogance and knowing a bit about the subject. It's a bit more arrogant to think that you can make statements that are based on ignorance rather than fact... guys like you spout off your opinion.. then back it up with total bullshit... the opinion I can respect... having that opinion based on your refusal to learn something about the subject I can't. I have an opinion about AR's, but I back it up with real facts...If that's arrogant to you... then so be it.

[Skillet]

LOL.. I'm pretty sure I never said that... hunter participation is another part of the deer management equation. There is a difference between arrogance and knowing a bit about the subject. It's a bit more arrogant to think that you can make statements that are based on ignorance rather than fact... guys like you spout off your opinion.. then back it up with total bullshit... the opinion I can respect... having that opinion based on your refusal to learn something about the subject I can't. I have an opinion about AR's, but I back it up with real facts...If that's arrogant to you... then so be it.

I'm quite sure you did say it, I'll see if I can find it. Guys like you not only spout off your opinion, you also try to push it on everybody else. Yes joey, you are arrogant, and really not all that smart.

[Doc]

Well, apparently we can be put into 3 categories of hunters. There is the "meat hunter", a lowly villainous guy who is the scourge of the earth always looking for ways of decimating the deer herd. Then there is "trophy hunter" who never saw a reason for shooting a deer if the rack score wasn't of some particular minimum number. And last there is the "deer benefactor" who apparently doesn't like the meat, only shoots old and toothless deer that are only a few weeks away from a natural death from old age.

Yeah that whole paragraph is a bit of a sarcastic description of deer hunters, but the point is that none of us are truly just any one of those. We generally get into using those names only as a prelude to some kind of negative comment in an argument that is escalating toward a set of personal attacks .... lol.

The fact is that we usually have a piece of all of those in combination. I don't know too many hunters that don't value the addition of venison to their menu. I also don't know too many that don't appreciate a good buck rack when they are fortunate enough to get one. And we all recognize that we do have to act with some thoughts as to adequate herd management to allow the realization of the first two attitudes.

Unfortunately, the controversy of AR can be defended or attacked using these bogus hunter characterizations as criteria. Three different points of view ..... all the ingredients for yet another of our many divisive controversies. The good news is that it all makes for some rather lively forum fodder.

[Skillet]

Joe, I was mistaken about you saying you didn't care about loss of hunter numbers. That was NFA-ADK. I am not mistaken about your "holier than thou" attitude. It really got reinforced when I just went back thru the history of the forum.

[Skillet]

"I'm wondering why the buck was at the butchers... you can't eat those horns... so no need to get the deer butchered.. " - NYantler- 11/29/11 @ 1813.

"as for "if it's brown , it's down" ...that's how hunters get killed!!" - NYantler 11/22/11 @2234.

Sounds pretty condescending joe. Can you allow a thread to go by without hijacking it for AR promotion? Doesn't seem so based on your history. Those are just 2 of many jerk remarks you made, it only took a second to find them. I'm sure there's more. Lucky for me it's slow today, and I had the time to waste on you.

Can you factually support your statement on the danger of a "brown down" policy? What does killing any deer you see have to do with being a safe hunter? Or are meat hunters just lowly slobs who shoot at any movement or noise?

Edited August 6, 2012 by Skillet

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Skillet, I have to say I don't view NY's comments and stated positions as an "AR guy" He seems to view the deer managment as the goal and not horns. I hae heard hem say (at least type) that he believes the age structure is our most lacking feature here in NY and that most huinters can tell a mature deer. I consider myself an average hunter and I have to admit I have a hard time when they are lone deer (unless they are carrying big horns) So AR is one IMPERFECT way to move towards and older buck structure.

[Skillet]

Come on joe, I want an in depth answer as to how buck age class will result in a healthy herd? School me. Don't just say that "if you don't get it, you're a dummy". What other benefit does increasing the age of the bucks have, other than to increase the survival rate of a potential trophy racked deer? Don't minimize the question joe. HOW does it affect ACTUAL herd HEALTH?? If trophy potential is what you're after, fine, I'm cool with that, but don't put it under the guise of "herd health". So if older bucks make healthier herds, then should we start to try and age doe on the hoof, too? Should we pass on 1.5 doe, and try to focus on the ones with "good" traits, and trophy potential?

Like a real long neck, or a pretty face?

[Skillet]

Skillet, I have to say I don't view NY's comments and stated positions as an "AR guy" He seems to view the deer managment as the goal and not horns. I hae heard hem say (at least type) that he believes the age structure is our most lacking feature here in NY and that most huinters can tell a mature deer. I consider myself an average hunter and I have to admit I have a hard time when they are lone deer (unless they are carrying big horns) So AR is one IMPERFECT way to move towards and older buck structure.

I hear you Culver. I just don't like his attitude, and his inability to handle when someone gives it back to him.

[nyantler]

Come on joe, I want an in depth answer as to how buck age class will result in a healthy herd? School me. Don't just say that "if you don't get it, you're a dummy". What other benefit does increasing the age of the bucks have, other than to increase the survival rate of a potential trophy racked deer? Don't minimize the question joe. HOW does it affect ACTUAL herd HEALTH?? If trophy potential is what you're after, fine, I'm cool with that, but don't put it under the guise of "herd health". So if older bucks make healthier herds, then should we start to try and age doe on the hoof, too? Should we pass on 1.5 doe, and try to focus on the ones with "good" traits, and trophy potential?

Like a real long neck, or a pretty face?

I have typed the answer so many times on this forum that my fingers hurt... you fellas need to do a little homework and read up on buck age structure and how it benefits overall herd management. I will say however that age structure alone, without doe management, habitat management, buck:does ratios, isn't the end all.. be all. It's the entire package that creates the healthiest herds given the available habitat. The greatest benefit of age structure is to the young bucks... the older the age structure the less yearling bucks get to breed... giving them time to gain the body size that they will need to make it through the tough winters. Also, a good AR program tends to cause a slight increase in doe take and an increase in hold-over bucks. This moves the buck:doe ration closer.. leaving plenty of bucks to breed does during their first estrus cycle.. producing earlier born fawns and reducing the number of late born fawns. When fawns are born early they have more time to prepare for the lean winters and fawn mortality numbers tend to drop in the herd. If you check any good management program you will find better deer hunting overall... which means more meat for the "meat hunters". There is nothing about AR's that hasn't been proven to benefit herd management or benefit hunters. Hunter ignorance about deer manageement is the only thing that stands in the way of hunters and deer benefiting from a good mangeement program. Ask those that already manage their herds.. I defy you to find a guy that doesn't think the program is beneficial to the herd and his personal hunting experience. It's only the stubborn hunters that know nothing about proper deer management and haven't taken the time to really learn about it or try it that seem to do all the bitching. Those that have seem to like it just fine.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The greatest benefit of age structure is to the young bucks... the older the age structure the less yearling bucks get to breed... giving them time to gain the body size that they will need to make it through the tough winters. Also, a good AR program tends to cause a slight increase in doe take and an increase in hold-over bucks.

Joe,

I have asked this many times and can't seem to get an answer. If so much effort has been put into this I woul dthink there should be numbers supporting an answer to this question.---

If we increase the age structure of the bucks and increase their numbers there will be more interaction of bucks during the pre rut and rut. To me this equated to more battling. These programs are presented to allow more time for body wieht and helping to make it through the winter. I would think the big increase in battling would afset any reduction in seeking. Is ther any data to show how the increased fighting effects the winter survival / survival rates?

[SteveB]

Come on joe, I want an in depth answer as to how buck age class will result in a healthy herd? School me. Don't just say that "if you don't get it, you're a dummy". What other benefit does increasing the age of the bucks have, other than to increase the survival rate of a potential trophy racked deer? Don't minimize the question joe. HOW does it affect ACTUAL herd HEALTH?? If trophy potential is what you're after, fine, I'm cool with that, but don't put it under the guise of "herd health". So if older bucks make healthier herds, then should we start to try and age doe on the hoof, too? Should we pass on 1.5 doe, and try to focus on the ones with "good" traits, and trophy potential?

Like a real long neck, or a pretty face?

For someone who claims to have researched Joe's opinion from his past posts, it is amazing that you missed how many times he has answered those questions. Maybe you where looking for "joey" and missed them?

I am as anti mandatory AR as anyone, but respect Joe's opinion 100 % because he is one of the few that back it up. There is a dynamic to the herd that is missed when doe/buck ratio's and/or normal age ratio's are skewered.

And while trying to balance them will result in an increase of the % of larger racked bucks, it does not mean that is the goal for all who support methods to balance both.

Nor does it mean that if you support trying to balance those ratio's that you are an AR supportor - as in my case where I feel education and voluntary restraint.

[Skillet]

Nah steve, I only looked hard enough to find examples of his attitude. I really couldn't care less about his opinions, because I'm always going to shoot what I want to, regardless of rack size.

[SteveB]

For someone who doesn't care, you seem to care a lot.

[Skillet]

LOL, you're right. I care when people try to force their views on others. But like I've said before, I will not have the deer I kill be dictated by guys like Joe, or anyone else, DEC included. Yes steve, I'm aware that I am talking about breaking the law, & I meant it. That about sums it up for me.

[SteveB]

Not surprised - you first.

[Doc]

There is one nagging quote from the DEC top biologist Jeremy Hurst. That being that there is no biological reason for ARs. Certainly not a direct quote, but it does capture the essence of the quote. What exactly did he mean if ARs have such a significant effect on the health of the herd? Did he lie? If so, why? He actually described the demands for AR as being a social request from hunters. Again, not a direct quote, but essentially conveys the meaning of what he said. Can anyone straighten me out on what the deal was with those widely publicized quotes?

[Skillet]

Not surprised - you first.

I don't get it.