A sad day for New York hunters

[jjb4900]

"Spikes don't breed does.........." interesting............I remember years back when the experts encouraged shooting inferior spikes to prevent them from breeding does and passing on their genes.

[jjb4900]

SteveB & Doc, good to see two intelligent post's in a row.......

[13BVET]

There is nothing sad about the antler restriction program. Whats sad is that its not in effect for the entire state. NY could be just as good as the west, but the problem is the trigger happy gun hunters who refuse to let the 1.5 year old bucks walk. Shoot a doe instead. Whats wrong with that? Wouldnt you love to hang a 10 or 12 pointers head above your fireplace and tell everyone the story while your eating him? Well if you shoot him when hes a little four pointer (and very easy to kill), then you will never be able to do that. You might also want to re-consider your hunting strategies also. Sounds to me like the deer know your in the woods way before you do. I love hearing you all complain about never seeing deer, when its your own fault and you dont even realize it. My guess is that the deer know your coming the minute you step out the door. I think NY would be a much better place to hunt if there were bigger bucks and it would attract more people to the area. Know how much money the outfitters in Illinois make from hunting alone? Why do you think that is? Those guys let the 2.5 year old bucks walk and shoot lots of does. Thats the way to do it. That creates a much healthier herd and competition for breeding rights. In other words, spikes do not breed the does, big dominant bucks do. Bow season is the absolute best time to be in the woods also, so dont hate the player, hate the game. You become a much more intelligent hunter when you have a bow in your hand. Anybody can shoot a deer from 200 yards away with a rifle. There are tons of regulations for ocean fishing here in NY also and you know what, it has really made a huge difference.

Spikes don't breed does??? Funny-I've seen them breed does. After all, if the dominant buck in that area is harvested, then what is left to breed the does? Those "inferior bucks" that you're referring to. I don't know where you got the idea that spikes don't breed does............

[WNYBuckHunter]

"Spikes don't breed does.........." interesting............I remember years back when the experts encouraged shooting inferior spikes to prevent them from breeding does and passing on their genes.

New studies have shown that spikes are just yearlings most of the time, and they breed does just fine lol.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Wouldnt you love to hang a 10 or 12 pointers head above your fireplace and tell everyone the story while your eating him? Well if you shoot him when hes a little four pointer (and very easy to kill), then you will never be able to do that. You might also want to re-consider your hunting strategies also. Sounds to me like the deer know your in the woods way before you do. I love hearing you all complain about never seeing deer, when its your own fault and you dont even realize it. My guess is that the deer know your coming the minute you step out the door. I think NY would be a much better place to hunt if there were bigger bucks and it would attract more people to the area.

Peter, let me clue you in a bit. All of NY HAS large racked mature deer. They are taken every year. What you sound lie you need is then to be very easily taken and behind every tree to offset your inability to take one. You are bashing the level of competence of gun hunters but if you can't take a mature buck in NY may that bashing is misdirected and should be focused on yourself.

[jjb4900]

I never once shot a spike or 4pt and thought to myself..."Boy, I wish he was bigger"

[PETERBFLY]

I have taken many nice bucks with my bow and Gun. Just dont really have the quality that I wish we did. I did not say "Spikes dont Breed does here in NY" but I bet that they dont breed does in Illinois or PA because there is a much much better balance between bucks and does. Much closer buck to doe ratio which creates competition for breeding rights, which means survival of the fit. You are entitled to shoot whatever you want, but I CANT understand how you dont see the benefit of having the AR??? It will most certainly improve the herd and amount of deer that you see.You might not be able to shoot a buck the first year, but after that it will only get better. Argue that point if you can. I cant help that your not hunting in a good area. Perhaps try another place. My land is loaded with deer (mostly does and 1.5 yo bucks). The Genetics are HORRIBLE and I want that to change. I want to get my moneys worth just as you do. I pay the same price for my license and spend alot of time in the woods. I havent shot a young buck in almost 15 years and have seen some good results, but I think it would be better with the Restriction. My neighbors are the trigger happy gun hunters I was refering to. Imagine seeing just as many bucks in the woods as you do does? Do you think you would like that? Or would you rather see 8 does, 2 spikes and a nothing else? I can kill little spikes and four pointers all day long but I see no challenge in that at all. I want the deer that gets my heart pumping and adrenaline flowing. Shoot a nice 8-10 pointer with a bow and you will totally agree with me. Feel free to bash me some more. I enjoy it and totally disagree with anyone who is against letting the young and very easy to kill bucks walk. I also NEVER shoot a mother or babies, so maybe there is something wrong with that as well. Perhaps there is more to hunting than murdering the first deer you see.

[erussell]

I once watched a button buck chase a doe around in circles for about 2 hrs around my stand. She tired him out and he laid down and rested for a while. But if he could have caught her I have no doubt he would have breed the heck out of her.

[erussell]

I have taken many nice bucks with my bow and Gun. Just dont really have the quality that I wish we did. I did not say "Spikes dont Breed does here in NY" but I bet that they dont breed does in Illinois or PA because there is a much much better balance between bucks and does. Much closer buck to doe ratio which creates competition for breeding rights, which means survival of the fit. You are entitled to shoot whatever you want, but I CANT understand how you dont see the benefit of having the AR??? It will most certainly improve the herd and amount of deer that you see.You might not be able to shoot a buck the first year, but after that it will only get better. Argue that point if you can. I cant help that your not hunting in a good area. Perhaps try another place. My land is loaded with deer (mostly does and 1.5 yo bucks). The Genetics are HORRIBLE and I want that to change. I want to get my moneys worth just as you do. I pay the same price for my license and spend alot of time in the woods. I havent shot a young buck in almost 15 years and have seen some good results, but I think it would be better with the Restriction. My neighbors are the trigger happy gun hunters I was refering to. Imagine seeing just as many bucks in the woods as you do does? Do you think you would like that? Or would you rather see 8 does, 2 spikes and a nothing else? I can kill little spikes and four pointers all day long but I see no challenge in that at all. I want the deer that gets my heart pumping and adrenaline flowing. Shoot a nice 8-10 pointer with a bow and you will totally agree with me. Feel free to bash me some more. I enjoy it and totally disagree with anyone who is against letting the young and very easy to kill bucks walk. I also NEVER shoot a mother or babies, so maybe there is something wrong with that as well. Perhaps there is more to hunting than murdering the first deer you see.

Scientific fact: AR's will not change the genetics of any hunting area even if you ad tame 15 point monsters to the herd. AR's only increase the age structure of a herd. Within a short period of yrs the genetic soup would be so watered down that no genetic material from said 15 point monsters will even be found.

http://www.qdma.com/...e-deer-genetics

Also not shooting the " Mother and babies " as you refer to them is not very sound Deer management. If you want to see better bucks yes let the little bucks walk but you have to kill the doe and keep there numbers low. Your bucks will suffer from over exertion from trying to breed so many doe and mortlity rates will be higher and racks will be smaller. Also scientific fact.

http://www.qdma.com/articles/harvesting-the-right-number-of-deer

http://www.qdma.com/articles/how-many-does-can-i-harvest

Edited September 28, 2012 by erussell

[PETERBFLY]

Im sure, I have seen spikes mount does also and it sucks. Balance out the herd and that spike will be jerking off alot.. My buddy shot a 180lb 3 pointer out of my stand and I have to say it was one pathetic looking set of horns on a big deer. Wonder why that is?

[erussell]

Im sure, I have seen spikes mount does also and it sucks. Balance out the herd and that spike will be jerking off alot.. My buddy shot a 180lb 3 pointer out of my stand and I have to say it was one pathetic looking set of horns on a big deer. Wonder why that is?

Actually a spike can be a spike his whole life or a ten point in 2 yrs. You never know what the genetic potential of a deer is untill they reach about 3.5 to 4.5 yrs of age. 180 lbs 3 pointer could have just been a healthy young deer who ate alot. Unless a tooth sample is taken and aged you cant be sure.

[PETERBFLY]

I do shoot does ERussel. Many does, just not a mother or babies. Not the way I operate

[erussell]

All Doe in theory are Mothers. Also by hunting season all fawns are able to take care of themselves and very tasty but to each his own. Just saying.

Edited September 28, 2012 by erussell

[PETERBFLY]

Last year, me and my buddy took 3 doe off my property and are going to do the same again this year. I do my own QDM and am hoping it pays off. Believe me when I tell you that I have seen some decent bucks, but nothing near 120 class or better that I would like. I do see plenty of 2.5 year olds, but most are scrappy basket bucks with very few being respectable. Im the guy who wants to catch the 1,000lb Marlin instead of the stringer full of tiny trout. Not that I dont enjoy catching fish, but I want the trophy. Thats the one that offers the challenge and the one I want to outsmart. To me that is the most rewarding.

[erussell]

Hay your preaching to the choir man. But sometimes you got to step back and look at the big pic and just hunt the biggest buck you've got available. You can keep letting them walk but if thats all that is available for you to hunt then you are going to be frustrated. Only a handfull of 140in and over deer are killed each yr in NY. I consider a 115in buck a decent buck for NY and the average without ARS. I can only ever rememeber seeing one buck alive in the woods that went over 140in and hes dead a long time now. Unless you have 500 acres of continuious property for deer to hide on QDM can only take you so far especially if your neighbors are brown its down.

Edited September 28, 2012 by erussell

[PETERBFLY]

If my neighbors couldnt shoot the little guys, then progress would begin. Do you agree?

[erussell]

Yes most definately.

[SteveB]

Believe me when I tell you that I have seen some decent bucks, but nothing near 120 class or better that I would like. I do see plenty of 2.5 year olds, but most are scrappy basket bucks with very few being respectable.

So you see plenty of 2.5 baskets. Guess what - they where 1.5's and AR does nothing to protect scrappy baskets.

A 6pt 1.5 is no different then a 1.5 spike.

You want the biggest and think everyone else should be forced to cater to you to get it.

The only thing that will put large numbers of real mature deer - 4.5 and older - in NY like Illinois is doing what they do - limited access and low pressure. AR is not even a tiny step toward this.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

So you see plenty of 2.5 baskets. Guess what - they where 1.5's and AR does nothing to protect scrappy baskets.

A 6pt 1.5 is no different then a 1.5 spike.

You want the biggest and think everyone else should be forced to cater to you to get it.

The only thing that will put large numbers of real mature deer - 4.5 and older - in NY like Illinois is doing what they do - limited access and low pressure. AR is not even a tiny step toward this.

Come on now, Its a least a tiny step

[Doc]

Im sure, I have seen spikes mount does also and it sucks. Balance out the herd and that spike will be jerking off alot.. My buddy shot a 180lb 3 pointer out of my stand and I have to say it was one pathetic looking set of horns on a big deer. Wonder why that is?

That 180 pounder would have been illegal to shoot in one of those 3-point minimum AR units. He would have been free to breed and pass his genetics along until he died of old age.

[nyantler]

Actually a spike can be a spike his whole life or a ten point in 2 yrs. You never know what the genetic potential of a deer is untill they reach about 3.5 to 4.5 yrs of age. 180 lbs 3 pointer could have just been a healthy young deer who ate alot. Unless a tooth sample is taken and aged you cant be sure.

Very true... except for the part about a spike being a spike his whole life... it is extremely rare to find a spike buck that is older than 1.5.... even rarer to see one sporting spikes in old age... it is one of the biggest fallicies in the hunting world... of all the older (over 2.5) deer killed in the last 40 years in NY.. there is less than a handful that have been found to sport spike racks.. and the ones that are known were also known to have had an injury that caused their rack to be dwarfed. I have spent many years talking to many DEC biologists, encon officers and taxidermists on this very subject... when asked the question of how many older bucks they have witnessed with spike racks in there lifetime of dealing with deer harvests not a one has seen a natural occuring mature spike rack buck.

Edited September 28, 2012 by nyantler