Deer population

[orion]

Without making this into a AR pissing contest, I would like to know what people feel is the right population for ARs

Looking for the # of deer per square mile for each of the following:

4.5 + bucks

3.5 bucks

2.5 bucks

1.5 bucks

Doe to Buck ratio

[ELMER J. FUDD]

4.5 + bucks - 15%

3.5 bucks - 20%

2.5 bucks - 35%

1.5 bucks - 30%

Doe to Buck ratio - 2.5/1

[Gthphtm]

Bucks = one

Doe to buck ratio = 2 / 1

[orion]

I am looking for actually #s not percentages. Realistically please. Deer Density per square mile.

Elmer Fudd, do you think half of the 1.5 year old's will make it to 4.5? or is that wishful thinking? just asking Thanks

[sampotter]

640 acres/ square mile BTW.

4.5 + bucks: 1

3.5 bucks: 1

2.5 bucks: 3

1.5 bucks: 5

Buck:Doe- 1:1

[nyslowhand]

Deer density populations will (& should) vary dramaticlly across the state depending on habitat & available food sources. Can't really make a generalized, optimum density for age structure. Then there is the hunting pressure on already low densities or some local farmers abusing nusiance permits. These situations can drastically skew age structure densities and make certain areas almost unmanageable. Assuming not a lot of people hunt areas (1sq/mi) this big, IMHO makes it kind of irrelevant and meaningless even if an optimum # were assigned. For conversation sake, assume we do come up with a perfect #, what's good for your area might not be ideal for mine.

Edited September 29, 2012 by nyslowhand

[5.9cummins]

Without making this into a AR pissing contest

Good Luck

640 acres/ square mile BTW.

4.5 + bucks: 1

3.5 bucks: 1

2.5 bucks: 3

1.5 bucks: 5

Buck:Doe- 1:1

What he said, give or take a few deer.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Sorry Orion. Long week and i didn't have my coffee yet. I'd say Sam is right. Do you mean a good population for AR to work or what a population should be after AR is implemented?

[orion]

Looking for a good population of what would actually work. Realistically

Problems I see with Sam's are I don't think it's feasible to get a 1 to 1 ratio. Some biologists don't even recommend it. The other is he has 1- 3.5 year old and 1- 4.5 that means nothing ever happens to a 3.5 year old? I think something is bound to happen to him.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Oh, and honestly, the 1.5yr / 30% thing was only because 30 was all that was left out of 100! My wild guess. lol.

[orion]

Just trying to realistically get a feel of how many deer you need to get to 1- 4.5 year old buck per square mile.

[nyantler]

Without making this into a AR pissing contest, I would like to know what people feel is the right population for ARs

Looking for the # of deer per square mile for each of the following:

4.5 + bucks

3.5 bucks

2.5 bucks

1.5 bucks

Doe to Buck ratio

There really is no "broad brush" right population.. everything depends on how many deer the area can support... as far as buck:doe ratios are concerned.. 1:1 is optimum but probably never achievable here in NY with hunter attitudes... if the ratios ever got to 3:1 that would be quite an accomplishment. Hunters scream that there aren't a lot of bucks or any quality bucks in their area but are not willing to do what it takes to get there... For every 100 deer... why would hunters want 80 does and 20 bucks... when they could have 60 does and 40 bucks?

Edited September 29, 2012 by nyantler

[Single_shot]

"why would hunters want 80 does and 20 bucks... when they could have 60 does and 40 bucks? "

Because more doe are killed each year,so more is better and also they give birth to future freezer fillers.As stated so many times,don't matter what the head dress is.It takes 1 buck to do the job on how many doe? I don't think he is done boning after the first batch.He may be tired,but ...

" Hunters scream that there aren't a lot of bucks or any quality bucks in their area but are not willing to do what it takes..."

You won't hear me complain,or any meat hunter for that matter, about the amount or quality of bucks.Would it be nice to get a slammer every year? well sure,but my life don't revolve around that even the slightest.What's more important is filling the tag/freezer,that includes my buck tag no matter the size,and not wasting my $280. Could I get a nice amount of meat from the store with that $,bet your axx I could....and it would have no bone on it's head......now what fun would that be?

[verminater71]

2 to 1 deer population 15 deer per sq mile

10 doe

5 bucks

3 at 1 1/2

1 at 2 1/2

1 at 3+

these would be pretty good numbers, however hunter numbers could be as high as 20 hunters per sq mile..

I can tell you this...it don't matter

the DEC has goals of 3 to 5 deer per sq mile

the DFMA program is in my back yard, this is a PILOT program, if they beleive that it was a success....it will be in your backyard next

[Larry]

most places where huntig takes place the ratio is about 2 to 1

[WNYBuckHunter]

It all depends on what the habitat can support. Without knowing the area you are talking about (food and water availability, how fertile the ground is, density of homes, etc) then any numbers that anyone is posting here are just guesses, and most likely completely inaccurate. You cannot manage with a broad brush.

[Larry]

Hey WNY your right you can’t use a broad brush. What lot of these guys don’t understand. Is no matter what Ar’s or no Ar’s is you will always have more 1.5 year old bucks before the season. If someone really wanted to manage deer they would have to know exactly the number of bucks and does and age class of every deer and make a plan that would have you kill a set amount of bucks out of each age class. Based on the number of bucks in each age class regardless of antler size this include killing buck fawns. You would have to do the same with does also you manage bucks and does separately. That’s QDM

[Doc]

Hey WNY your right you can’t use a broad brush. What lot of these guys don’t understand. Is no matter what Ar’s or no Ar’s is you will always have more 1.5 year old bucks before the season. If someone really wanted to manage deer they would have to know exactly the number of bucks and does and age class of every deer and make a plan that would have you kill a set amount of bucks out of each age class. Based on the number of bucks in each age class regardless of antler size this include killing buck fawns. You would have to do the same with does also you manage bucks and does separately. That’s QDM

And can you imagine, in your wildest dreams, the size, scope and cost of a management plan that would do that statewide? And that from a government agency that is kept on a starvation diet as far as resources. A small dose of realism puts my expectations at simply: balance the deer population so that we have a rough match between over-all deer numbers and the available habitat and societal requirements for coexistance with humans .... most of the time. Forget gender ratios. Forget the perfect age distributions. Just get the population size right and I will be satisfied. We can demand whatever we want from the DEC, but the fact is that you get what you pay for, and right now we aren't paying for a whole lot.

[nyantler]

"why would hunters want 80 does and 20 bucks... when they could have 60 does and 40 bucks? "

Because more doe are killed each year,so more is better and also they give birth to future freezer fillers.As stated so many times,don't matter what the head dress is.It takes 1 buck to do the job on how many doe? I don't think he is done boning after the first batch.He may be tired,but ...

" Hunters scream that there aren't a lot of bucks or any quality bucks in their area but are not willing to do what it takes..."

You won't hear me complain,or any meat hunter for that matter, about the amount or quality of bucks.Would it be nice to get a slammer every year? well sure,but my life don't revolve around that even the slightest.What's more important is filling the tag/freezer,that includes my buck tag no matter the size,and not wasting my $280. Could I get a nice amount of meat from the store with that $,bet your axx I could....and it would have no bone on it's head......now what fun would that be?

I can tell you really don't understand how buck;doe ratios affect or don't affect population growth... it doesn't work the way you describe... at least at a ratio of 60:40... your argument would only be valid if the ratio favored buck numbers over doe numbers. In which case a reduction in doe tags would solve the problem... You have to remember too that we're talking about optimizing ratios here not catering to the personal wants of individual hunters..

[growalot]

Would it be nice to get a slammer every year? well sure,

I really wish some of you would really think about that.....Would it REALLY be so nice to get a slammer EVERY year???

hhhmmm ..how to compare...The northern lights...how great is it to see a really nice display of the northern lights...doesn't happen for most of us all that often...so enjoyable

What is you walked out your door to see them every night???...how special would that be??

They say buck of a life time for a reason...not buck of the year...and stories are told over and over again about them...I'd rather..personally..... enjoy the one maybe two of a life time special trophies

[SteveB]

Love me a prime rib - but don't want it every day for dinner - or even weekly.

[Gthphtm]

1 Buck per Sq. mile + 2 Does per Sq. mile + 3 Fawns.And that s the truth.

And the still keep on giving out Doe Permits.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Gthphtm

[Doc]

I can tell you really don't understand how buck;doe ratios affect or don't affect population growth... it doesn't work the way you describe... at least at a ratio of 60:40... your argument would only be valid if the ratio favored buck numbers over doe numbers. In which case a reduction in doe tags would solve the problem... You have to remember too that we're talking about optimizing ratios here not catering to the personal wants of individual hunters..

I love all this day-dreaming about manipulation of deer gender ratios, as if there is anything that the DEC really has the ability to do. From what I have seen, they have their plate full just keeping some kind of balance on the over-all deer population. Anything beyond that is merely a fantasy on somebody's wish list. Understand that antlerless permits are a tool useful only in over-all population control, which has a goal of maintaining deer numbers in balance with habitat and societal needs for coexistance. Gender ratios are not even a small part of that.

[Doc]

I really wish some of you would really think about that.....Would it REALLY be so nice to get a slammer EVERY year???

hhhmmm ..how to compare...The northern lights...how great is it to see a really nice display of the northern lights...doesn't happen for most of us all that often...so enjoyable

What is you walked out your door to see them every night???...how special would that be??

They say buck of a life time for a reason...not buck of the year...and stories are told over and over again about them...I'd rather..personally..... enjoy the one maybe two of a life time special trophies

That is a reality that I believe few hunters appreciate. Few understand how something that is a valued achievement can be cheapened when it becomes too common-place. I don't think that a lot of people know what it means for something to truly be a "trophy". Good observation there, Grow. I agree a few thousand percent.

[nyantler]

I love all this day-dreaming about manipulation of deer gender ratios, as if there is anything that the DEC really has the ability to do. From what I have seen, they have their plate full just keeping some kind of balance on the over-all deer population. Anything beyond that is merely a fantasy on somebody's wish list. Understand that antlerless permits are a tool useful only in over-all population control, which has a goal of maintaining deer numbers in balance with habitat and societal needs for coexistance. Gender ratios are not even a small part of that.

The DEC absolutely has the ability to do it.... but could they get hunters to cooperate is really the question... the DEC will not take drastic steps really to reduce over-all populations to the extent needed to balance the ratios because of the resistance they know they'll get from a good portion of the hunting communty... and I agree that under the current management program gender ratios are a non existent thought for the DEC.. so with all that... yes, I guess you're right that it is a day dream to believe that balanced gender ratios or true population control will ever really be achieved in NY. At least in our lifetime...