Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[steve863]

Well yeah, it usually boils down to who has the $ to push their agenda.  Some sportsman clubs with some clout and $ were the ones to make AR's happen in the several units in the Catskills, and the same was tried unsuccessfully last year in a few more units.  I think the DEC wised up after being bamboozled the first time and realized what this agenda is all about.  The DEC may not be as dumb as some of you think.

This then begs the question, Why does the DEC support such a program which it deems unnecessary? Enforement of this program costs money and at at time where the DEC's coffers have been reduced; perhaps the funds devoted to such a program which only serves a minority could be better off earmarked for more deserving endeavors.

Good question!  Sure seems like the DEC is contradicting themselves by saying that AR's are biologically unnecessary and yet letting them continue in at least these units.  The only thing I could think of is that they want to give them at least a few more years before they make a final decision, this way the supporters can't b*itch up a storm saying that the DEC didn't give it a chance.  I know for a fact that there are more than a few disgruntled hunters in these units who can't even draw doe tags and then are told that the buck has to at least have 3 points to a side.  Stuff like that will get people to give up hunting for good.  When the DEC sees that AR's just might be effecting license sales, the decision then won't be very hard for them to make!

 

[burmjohn]

Well yeah, it usually boils down to who has the $ to push their agenda.  Some sportsman clubs with some clout and $ were the ones to make AR's happen in the several units in the Catskills, and the same was tried unsuccessfully last year in a few more units.  I think the DEC wised up after being bamboozled the first time and realized what this agenda is all about.  The DEC may not be as dumb as some of you think.

I beleive it was a few sportsman's clubs that were behind the initial push, along with a lot of other supporters who were not members of those clubs. Those clubs are a comprised of all hunters.  However, after the two initial WMU's the push came from mostly individuals for the two additional WMU's that eventually got AR's.  A family friend was one of the people at the meeting, which was open to all, and was in support.    It's hardly a bamboozle when AR's clearly work in my area 3H and 3J from what I and others I know have observed.  I have not yet met one person that is against it in these WMU's.  Even if you take a smaller sample set of the people on this forum that hunt in WMU's with AR.

I asked my local butcher 2 weekends ago on opening weekend of bow season.  He said that not only has the rack sized increased, the box sizes he used to pack the meat in had to be increased.  He has been in the biz for 40 years, and said there has been no decrease in the amount of bucks (or does for that matter) since AR was implemented in 3H.

This then begs the question, Why does the DEC support such a program which it deems unnecessary? Enforement of this program costs money and at at time where the DEC's coffers have been reduced; perhaps the funds devoted to such a program which only serves a minority could be better off earmarked for more deserving endeavors.

Its because its not a minority.

[Fairgame]

Culver,

were you able to get any info back from Maine.  I remember you saying that you were going to try to get some info from them about a month ago.

Just curious

[wztirem]

Well yeah, it usually boils down to who has the $ to push their agenda.  Some sportsman clubs with some clout and $ were the ones to make AR's happen in the several units in the Catskills, and the same was tried unsuccessfully last year in a few more units.  I think the DEC wised up after being bamboozled the first time and realized what this agenda is all about.  The DEC may not be as dumb as some of you think.

I beleive it was a few sportsman's clubs that were behind the initial push, along with a lot of other supporters who were not members of those clubs. Those clubs are a comprised of all hunters.  However, after the two initial WMU's the push came from mostly individuals for the two additional WMU's that eventually got AR's.  A family friend was one of the people at the meeting, which was open to all, and was in support.    It's hardly a bamboozle when AR's clearly work in my area 3H and 3J from what I and others I know have observed.  I have not yet met one person that is against it in these WMU's.  Even if you take a smaller sample set of the people on this forum that hunt in WMU's with AR.

I asked my local butcher 2 weekends ago on opening weekend of bow season.  He said that not only has the rack sized increased, the box sizes he used to pack the meat in had to be increased.  He has been in the biz for 40 years, and said there has been no decrease in the amount of bucks (or does for that matter) since AR was implemented in 3H.

This then begs the question, Why does the DEC support such a program which it deems unnecessary? Enforement of this program costs money and at at time where the DEC's coffers have been reduced; perhaps the funds devoted to such a program which only serves a minority could be better off earmarked for more deserving endeavors.

Its because its not a minority.

Then why should the majority of hunters in NY have to support a "pork barrel program" which the DEC considers unnecesssary to only serve the interests of a  select minority of hunters statewide?

[burmjohn]

Its not a "pork barrel program", the hunters in the area support it, asked for it, want it to continue, which are the same ones that buy licenses which fund the DEC.  Regardless, how is it costing the DEC money to enforce this any different from the 3 inch antler rule that is already in place across the state?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I was in Maine. I was headed to DEC in Region 3. I was going to be in that area and try to request the research backing up the decission to do AR there and data since.

Unfortunately I was on the road a lot and will be working every day from now until the opening of SZ gun. That in itself has me in a grumpy mood...lol

It is still on my to do list though...I haven't forgotten

[Culvercreek hunt club]

  Regardless, how is it costing the DEC money to enforce this any different from the 3 inch antler rule that is already in place across the state?

And that is logic that you can not dispute. Regardless of what regulatons are out there...20 taken away or 20 added...we aren't  getting any more CO's....much to my sadness. I sure would rather see the money spent there rather than welfare of health care for illegals

[TheHunter]

Regarding the QDMA findings, who else is going to have the $ to support a study? Lets look at PA.

They came the conclusion that before AR there was a less then 20% survival rate. The majority of those bucks being taken were 1.5's.  After AR (or APRs as they call it) 1.5 bucks survival rate was increased to over 60%, and older bucks survival rate to over 34%.  In addition there has been no change to the hunters success rates of getting a buck.  So if its not reducing opportunity, yet increasing the bucks survival rate, and maturing the herd, and allowing for bigger bucks it seems like a win win.

Great indisputable points, AR works and improves EVERYONES hunting experiance along with increasing the buck survival and age structure.

[wztirem]

Regarding the QDMA findings, who else is going to have the $ to support a study? Lets look at PA.

They came the conclusion that before AR there was a less then 20% survival rate. The majority of those bucks being taken were 1.5's.  After AR (or APRs as they call it) 1.5 bucks survival rate was increased to over 60%, and older bucks survival rate to over 34%.  In addition there has been no change to the hunters success rates of getting a buck.  So if its not reducing opportunity, yet increasing the bucks survival rate, and maturing the herd, and allowing for bigger bucks it seems like a win win.

Great indisputable points, AR works and improves EVERYONES hunting experiance along with increasing the buck survival and age structure.

I have been hunting for over 35 years and have no complaints and relish the opportunity to legally kill the deer of my choice and I have killed some very good bucks and have passed on many others. Why deny the common man of that opportunity or choice?

[burmjohn]

And why deny those the opportunity to harvest a mature deer where none existed?

[SteveB]

2.5 is not and never will be a mature deer. And if they are being so eagerly shought after and killed as it appears to be, the number of actual mature - 4.5's+ - will never show any statistical increase of significance.

[nyantler]

I have been hunting for over 35 years and have no complaints and relish the opportunity to legally kill the deer of my choice and I have killed some very good bucks and have passed on many others. Why deny the common man of that opportunity or choice?

Conservation laws shouldn't be about choice.. it should be about whats good for the conservation effort. Thats like saying that just because you like driving 100 mph that there shouldn't be a 65 mph speed limit.

[SteveB]

I agree Joe - that is why a statewide AR system because some want the herd to have more 2.5's to shoot is not a valid reason to change. Especially when long term results from other states are showing it may not only be not beneficial, but harmful.

[nyantler]

you are absolutely right Steve.. I think that change should be made to help the conservation effort... it shouldn't be about killing bigger bucks.. bigger bucks just happens to be a by-product of AR. And I agree that there are some that only want the bigger bucks.

[skyzmine]

if you kill a 2.5 or even a 1.0

who realy gives a crap.

the chance of the average hunter to even SEE a big buck in a lifetime is slim to nome.

unless you own 1000's of acres and have tons of cash to feed the deer.....

the average joe doesnt

so why rob the man, woman or child the thrill of the hunt?

there are plenty of deer out there, just look at the road sides

a ton of dead deer, and a crap load of live deer in the woods.

i mean realy, its just a deer. what do you think? we're running out of them?

and if your just hunting for the rack, i hope you never get one.

its food.. plain and simple people.... FOOD!!!!

now enjoy your tuna 'samich' with a side of veal after your stem cell smoothy then pull the stick out of your a$$

and just leave the average man alone...

well thats my take on it anyways

[Fairgame]

How do you educate this guy^^^^^^^^?  Thats what I'm talking about.  It has to be mandatory for any regulation to work in areas that need regulation.

[skyzmine]

this is what im talking about, 2 sides to a coin.

opinions are like Fairgame, i mean assholes everyone has them and they all stink but his

go educate your self, you ----

[Fairgame]

I picture you in the woods just like your cartoon. 

[skyzmine]

hay buddy life isnt fair is it.

its called freedom, we, the people have to many restriction as it is.

it sounds like you want to regulate everything..

tax tax tax  you must work for the IRS

i mean, who do you think you are to FORCE you crap, and it is crap, on others

and you NEED to have the last word, dont you.

just worry about yourself and let others worry about themselves.

PS i looked like that in saudi wile protecting your freedom, and mine

your wellcome

[Fairgame]

First I will thank you for fighting for all of or freedoms.

Freedom doesnt mean you do as you please.  There are regulations on hunting and changing a regulation for the better of hunting isnt going to hurt anyone.  It actually puts more excitement into the woods.  Hunting these days is a recreation not survival.

[nyantler]

Skyzmine.. what are you .. 12 ? Ease up.. its just a forum.

[skyzmine]

Skyzmine.. what are you .. 12 ? Ease up.. its just a forum.

there is no ease up. thats the point. you ease up and they walk right on over you.

oh, am i 12 lol why? because i dont share your values? maybe you need to re-think your thoughts.

if you need AR then you BETTER recycle everything... and i mean everything... and no one person in this world does, ''not everything''  use alteretive fule, GO GREEN... got your BIG truck? your BIG 50'' tv? every one seems

to be stuck on it.  it being ''BIG'' and wastes and spends more than they can handel...

maybe we should regulate the size of your house to your income or your family size?

what? lost your job? turn over your wife and kids because you cant afford to take care of them.

dont worry the new regulation well remove you and put a new man in your house to do the job.

an AR would just be the beginning, not a end.

and i say we dont need it...

hay man im sorry you dont see millions of big bucks trotting everywhere for your pleasure.

tell you what i will do, ill go to a deer farm, buy one and tie it to your treestand for you.

see, im all for it.

you see, this is MY opinion.  i dont need to be schooled on YOUR opinion.

maybe, just maybe you need the schooling.

[adkhunter71]

I invite any of you who are so eager to impose antler restrictions on the entire state to hunt areas of the Adirondacks where the buck take is 0.6 per square mile.  I remember many seasons where if you see a tail, you are lucky.  Anyone in these areas that harvests any buck (1.5 yr old or 4.5 yr old) is very fortunate. 

Big bucks don't and shouldn't come easy.  Either you have to work very hard or be very patient. 

I, for one, am happy with the way that it is.  If I want to harvest a big buck, I know that I will have to work hard, be patient, and be realistic. 

Sometimes I have to do the same for a 1.5 yr old and I am quite content with the effort, the experience and the chance to put meat in the freezer knowing that next year I might have to settle for beef.   

 

[gundeck]

My concern is this, every season is much the same on my little 42 acres.  Preseason I see lots of deer milling about.  Bow season comes and I see plenty of deer (no big buck, but plenty of buck).  The first day of shotgun season it sounds like a war zone on both sides of my property.  After the first (or maybe second) day of shotgun, I am lucky to see a deer until after New Years.  Buck, in general, don't stand a chance in my area.  There is one large buck that I see on a regular basis, but he is pretty crafty and almost exclusively nocturnal.  I don't think the families that hunt on either side of me are interested in QDM.

[skyzmine]

i own 25 acers as well.

i see tons of deer.

i have had deer come as close as 10 feet from me wile enjoying myself in the hottub.

its quite a sight to see.

but the big bucks are a rare sight in the daylight.

i have seen them. but never the full body at one time, allways in the thick.

the big boys only come out at night around me.

they are real smart, thats why they live so long..

they avoid us at all costs.

but some will dum up for the rut...... we hope....