Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[wztirem]

I believe the Detroit Lions already hold that distinction Ed.

[SQ2Hunter]

I think it is easy to pass on 1.5 year old bucks. I have fun watching them and I think once you pass on one and watch it for a while you will have a new appreciation for just how imature they are. I always love it when someone says that DEC biologist look at 1.5 year olds as adult deer in the heard its just not the case yes, they can mate but so do 15 year old humans.

[wztirem]

I think it is easy to pass on 1.5 year old bucks. I have fun watching them and I think once you pass on one and watch it for a while you will have a new appreciation for just how imature they are. I always love it when someone says that DEC biologist look at 1.5 year olds as adult deer in the heard its just not the case yes, they can mate but so do 15 year old humans.

????????????????????

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And at15 most humans are sexually mature. I miss your point unless you are attempting to place a human characteristic on an animal....like mental maturity and the need to be socially able to care for the baby.....naw....you wouldn't be doing that.....that is usually an Anti's type of a move.....bottom line...if an animals is biologically capable of mating.....they are sexually mature.

[nyantler]

A 1.5 year old is an adult deer... just not a mature adult deer... It's breeding with does is perfectly natural. The idea of passing on a young buck comes from wanting to extended the age structure in the buck population of a given area... then, as in many animal species, with so many older of the species being present many of the younger wouldn't get to breed as much do to the increased competition with more older animals.

[SQ2Hunter]

And at15 most humans are sexually mature. I miss your point unless you are attempting to place a human characteristic on an animal....like mental maturity and the need to be socially able to care for the baby.....naw....you wouldn't be doing that.....that is usually an Anti's type of a move.....bottom line...if an animals is biologically capable of mating.....they are sexually mature.

Listen, buddy I rezent the anti remark. Obviously you missed my point that 1.5 year olds are immature.... the bottom line is 1.5 year olds should be protected period. If you and your hunt club dont agree than thats fine shoot em up.

[TheHunter]

SQ2Hunter, don't let them get under your skin.  They throw that BS out at everyone.  The funny part is they all "claim" to not shoot the 1.5's too. 

[SQ2Hunter]

A 1.5 year old is an adult deer... just not a mature adult deer... It's breeding with does is perfectly natural. The idea of passing on a young buck comes from wanting to extended the age structure in the buck population of a given area... then, as in many animal species, with so many older of the species being present many of the younger wouldn't get to breed as much do to the increased competition with more older animals.

That was my point they are immature....

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And at15 most humans are sexually mature. I miss your point unless you are attempting to place a human characteristic on an animal....like mental maturity and the need to be socially able to care for the baby.....naw....you wouldn't be doing that.....that is usually an Anti's type of a move.....bottom line...if an animals is biologically capable of mating.....they are sexually mature.

Listen, buddy I rezent the anti remark. Obviously you missed my point that 1.5 year olds are immature.... the bottom line is 1.5 year olds should be protected period. If you and your hunt club dont agree than thats fine shoot em up.

resent all you want...you were the one that made a comparison to humans. and that IS an Anti ploy. I am not saying you are anti...just that the argument you put forth is an emotional one and an argument used by anti's. You also stated as fact that DEC does not view 1.5's as mature. That is incorrect. what box is checked and recorded for DEC when an 1.5 is taken?...fawn or adult? and their recording for management purposes is based on that designation.

Hunter....take a look at the survey posted in the other thread...you were the one claiming this overall support for AR's...seems like the conclusions on that survey don't suppport teh view you put forth. One good thing...looks like they are entertaining the idea of a statewide survey of all license holders and I would bet money on the results of that one.

[SQ2Hunter]

And at15 most humans are sexually mature. I miss your point unless you are attempting to place a human characteristic on an animal....like mental maturity and the need to be socially able to care for the baby.....naw....you wouldn't be doing that.....that is usually an Anti's type of a move.....bottom line...if an animals is biologically capable of mating.....they are sexually mature.

Listen, buddy I rezent the anti remark. Obviously you missed my point that 1.5 year olds are immature.... the bottom line is 1.5 year olds should be protected period. If you and your hunt club dont agree than thats fine shoot em up.

resent all you want...you were the one that made a comparison to humans. and that IS an Anti ploy. I am not saying you are anti...just that the argument you put forth is an emotional one and an argument used by anti's. You also stated as fact that DEC does not view 1.5's as mature. That is incorrect. what box is checked and recorded for DEC when an 1.5 is taken?...fawn or adult? and their recording for management purposes is based on that designation.

Hunter....take a look at the survey posted in the other thread...you were the one claiming this overall support for AR's...seems like the conclusions on that survey don't suppport teh view you put forth. One good thing...looks like they are entertaining the idea of a statewide survey of all license holders and I would bet money on the results of that one.

Same arguments are put forth by both anti's and non antis. I never said I support AR"s I do support QDM and I think AR is better than nothing. Oh yes the survey my friend Im glad you brought that up you mean the one that was sent out to 4700 hunters with only over 2000 returned. That has to be the most inacurate (and waste of money) survey ever released.  I hope you are right and it does go out to the over 150,000 licence buyers the outcome will be drastically different.

[TheHunter]

Hunter....take a look at the survey posted in the other thread...you were the one claiming this overall support for AR's...seems like the conclusions on that survey don't suppport teh view you put forth. One good thing...looks like they are entertaining the idea of a statewide survey of all license holders and I would bet money on the results of that one.

Haha... Majority support it in my area based on the older DEC survey and on that survey, thanks for pointing that out though.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And at15 most humans are sexually mature. I miss your point unless you are attempting to place a human characteristic on an animal....like mental maturity and the need to be socially able to care for the baby.....naw....you wouldn't be doing that.....that is usually an Anti's type of a move.....bottom line...if an animals is biologically capable of mating.....they are sexually mature.

Listen, buddy I rezent the anti remark. Obviously you missed my point that 1.5 year olds are immature.... the bottom line is 1.5 year olds should be protected period. If you and your hunt club dont agree than thats fine shoot em up.

resent all you want...you were the one that made a comparison to humans. and that IS an Anti ploy. I am not saying you are anti...just that the argument you put forth is an emotional one and an argument used by anti's. You also stated as fact that DEC does not view 1.5's as mature. That is incorrect. what box is checked and recorded for DEC when an 1.5 is taken?...fawn or adult? and their recording for management purposes is based on that designation.

Hunter....take a look at the survey posted in the other thread...you were the one claiming this overall support for AR's...seems like the conclusions on that survey don't suppport teh view you put forth. One good thing...looks like they are entertaining the idea of a statewide survey of all license holders and I would bet money on the results of that one.

Same arguments are put forth by both anti's and non antis. I never said I support AR"s I do support QDM and I think AR is better than nothing. Oh yes the survey my friend Im glad you brought that up you mean the one that was sent out to 4700 hunters with only over 2000 returned. That has to be the most inacurate (and waste of money) survey ever released.  I hope you are right and it does go out to the over 150,000 licence buyers the outcome will be drastically different.

SQ---didin't intend the survey comment for you...was refering to The Hunter...he has been claiming wide ranging support from a survey with the same type of quantities. My point in the earlier posts was they are inaccurate and should be a much larger cross section is not state waide to license holders

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Hunter....take a look at the survey posted in the other thread...you were the one claiming this overall support for AR's...seems like the conclusions on that survey don't suppport teh view you put forth. One good thing...looks like they are entertaining the idea of a statewide survey of all license holders and I would bet money on the results of that one.

Haha... Majority support it in my area based on the older DEC survey and on that survey, thanks for pointing that out though.

..No was actually talking about the slide #24 that says the most important thing to 58% of the hunters was being able to choose the buck they take...where only 34% desired a mature buck with larger antlers

[steve863]

Oh yes the survey my friend Im glad you brought that up you mean the one that was sent out to 4700 hunters with only over 2000 returned. That has to be the most inacurate (and waste of money) survey ever released.  I hope you are right and it does go out to the over 150,000 licence buyers the outcome will be drastically different.

Yeah, while AR supporters here are throwing 77% figures from their units at us here from a sample of 350 and we are supposed to buy that as gospel also???  I wish they would do a survey of everyone and I agree that it just might be drastically different.  WAY different than how you guys expect it to turn out, that's for sure!! LOL

[TheHunter]

I was referring to the fact that majority would like to see a state wide AR as shown by that survey.  Regardless, as I've always stated in the past, in area's witn AR, majority support it.  I'd like to see a state wide AR / management plan, however most importantly, is that AR is in my area, and its better then nothing and it works.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

3% difference in response in a study the say the margin of error is 2.2....this is why you get called on the carpet. It is not that I have any problem with a management plan change but the spewing of this as facts that are...or can be distorted is BS.  you speak of a "majority" and conveintly leav out the numbers I list above. There are a lot of people that take a statement like you made and view them as gospel. it is not the case. Both surveys are too small to make a decission and this one even has conflicting results. The statewide response is needed.

[SQ2Hunter]

And at15 most humans are sexually mature. I miss your point unless you are attempting to place a human characteristic on an animal....like mental maturity and the need to be socially able to care for the baby.....naw....you wouldn't be doing that.....that is usually an Anti's type of a move.....bottom line...if an animals is biologically capable of mating.....they are sexually mature.

Listen, buddy I rezent the anti remark. Obviously you missed my point that 1.5 year olds are immature.... the bottom line is 1.5 year olds should be protected period. If you and your hunt club dont agree than thats fine shoot em up.

resent all you want...you were the one that made a comparison to humans. and that IS an Anti ploy. I am not saying you are anti...just that the argument you put forth is an emotional one and an argument used by anti's. You also stated as fact that DEC does not view 1.5's as mature. That is incorrect. what box is checked and recorded for DEC when an 1.5 is taken?...fawn or adult? and their recording for management purposes is based on that designation.

Hunter....take a look at the survey posted in the other thread...you were the one claiming this overall support for AR's...seems like the conclusions on that survey don't suppport teh view you put forth. One good thing...looks like they are entertaining the idea of a statewide survey of all license holders and I would bet money on the results of that one.

Same arguments are put forth by both anti's and non antis. I never said I support AR"s I do support QDM and I think AR is better than nothing. Oh yes the survey my friend Im glad you brought that up you mean the one that was sent out to 4700 hunters with only over 2000 returned. That has to be the most inacurate (and waste of money) survey ever released.  I hope you are right and it does go out to the over 150,000 licence buyers the outcome will be drastically different.

SQ---didin't intend the survey comment for you...was refering to The Hunter...he has been claiming wide ranging support from a survey with the same type of quantities. My point in the earlier posts was they are inaccurate and should be a much larger cross section is not state waide to license holders

You are 100% correct!

[SteveB]

A lot of AR supporters claim that 65% plus of the hunters support AR.

Then we here that aprox 70% of the bucks killed are only 1.5.

So are we to believe that less then 35% of hunters are killing that 70% that are 1.5?????

Other 2 choices are the number of supporters is way less then 65% - either that or the majority of

that 65% talk the game but don't walk it. I think it's a combination of both.

[nyantler]

Very good point Steve! One thing I know from experience is that if you truly hunt only big bucks.. there are years one goes without a buck. It has been 11 years since I took a buck with my bow and I still love bowhunting... I bet i have passed on 30 bucks in that 11 years... I want my first buck with my recurve to be on the ground and a big boy. But, as you say if I want to talk the talk I need to walk the walk. Not sure many so called "big buck only" guys truly walk the walk.

[wztirem]

First mature deer that presents an opportunity to me is going to die from lead poisoning!

[Doc]

Just out of curiosity, what do you all consider a mature deer? ....2-1/2 years old? ......3-1/2 years old? ....... older? .... sway-backed and toothless .... lol? Seriously, how is that term, "mature" defined when it comes to deer? Is there any unanimous or authoritative opinion on that?

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am sure the answers will be varied, Doc.....wonder what Websters says?

[Doc]

I am sure the answers will be varied, Doc.....wonder what Websters says?

Yeah, one says that no deer should be shot unless the antlers are outside the ears, others want to see a certain number of points to try to assure that the deer is "mature" and worthy of harvest, others assign actual birth date requirements (i.e. a deer should be 2-1/2 years old, or 3-1/2 years old or 4-1/2 or some other arbitrary measure of maturity). I am expecting some proposals for buck restrictions that require tooth-wear verification before harvesting. The whole darn thing is getting a bit silly. However for those that insist that only "mature" bucks are appropriate targets, I just have this curiosity as to what people are calling mature.

Doc

[First-light]

I think 2.5 year old deer is mature. Do I harvest 1.5, yes. If I had more time in the woods I would think about passing the 1.5's. I don't and love venison so a 1.5 will do.

[Doc]

I think 2.5 year old deer is mature. Do I harvest 1.5, yes. If I had more time in the woods I would think about passing the 1.5's. I don't and love venison so a 1.5 will do.

I don't think they are done growing at 2-1/2 years are they? .... or are they? Of course I guess I am putting my own definition on mature when I ask that. So, for you, 2-1/2 is the age at which a deer is mature. Your answer is as good as anyone's. See, I don't even know what the criteria is supposed to be to call a deer "mature". That's why I asked the question.

Doc