Whats so hard about passing yearling bucks?

[covert]

Tough to judge from a frontal view but i would never think that deer is 4.5 and can give you a number of very typical biological consistencies as to why...

But it seems every opposer to ARs comes up with some point, thought relevant is miniscule in frequency. Big principal here...stop killing so many young bucks. If its 3 on one side...how many deer will be spared form the harvest? not may but the objection comes form slobs who like to see brown, see any horn and shoot....not safe or sportsmanlike

Sorry, I know it's not the best pic for the discussion but it was the only one I had on this computer at the time and I wanted to get it posted before I lost my train of thought.  Here is a better one that I just moved onto this computer, same deer 2 min later.

I think that probably part of the opposition is created by the implication that people who choose to shoot smaller bucks are careless, sloppy and unsportsmanlike.  I fail to see how seeing a deer, verifying it has a rack and then shooting it is somehow less safe than seeing a doe and shooting it.  If anything it would seem that the "brown and down" accidental shootings would be more prevalent when hunters don't even bother/have to look for horns.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Tough to judge from a frontal view but i would never think that deer is 4.5 and can give you a number of very typical biological consistencies as to why...

But it seems every opposer to ARs comes up with some point, thought relevant is miniscule in frequency. Big principal here...stop killing so many young bucks. If its 3 on one side...how many deer will be spared form the harvest? not may but the objection comes form slobs who like to see brown, see any horn and shoot....not safe or sportsmanlike

No---more than anything I think the objection comes in response from arrogant and "better than you" posturing by...ummmmm...guys just like you.

[erussell]

Deers not 4 yrs old. Not calling you a liar just saying its not the same deer as the one you got 4 yrs ago.  If it was then this deer had other problems which keep it from growing which makes it null envoid as an excuse against AR. Besides under AR it would be legal to shoot, so I dont see your problem with AR.

[covert]

I've got him every year for those 4 years so unless there are more than one with that same messed up horn... ;D  And as I stated earlier I only brought this one up regarding aging them on the hoof not ARs.  I also acknowleged that he could very well have other things going on to make him atypical.

My problem is not necessarily with ARs.  I used to believe they were good, and in some areas they probably could be.  But just as someone who hunts in an area with more hunting pressure and fewer bucks doesn't want me saying that people can come there and shoot any size/age buck they want, I don't want them telling me what I can shoot in my area when neither of us is familiar with the other's area. 

What I don't like is someone who doesn't know me from Adam calling me a slob, a poor sportsman and unsafe because the deer I shoot doesn't live up to their standards.  Well PPPPBBBBBBHHHHHTTTTTTTT to them.    Just because we have different opinions is no reason to get into name calling.  You should have enough confidence in the strength of your position to not need to resort to that.

[nyantler]

NYAntler, let me pose you this question.  You've just established your preferences hunting.  What if one day someone came along and said flintlock muzzleloaders are too inaccurate and from now on only highly accurate bolt action rifles with top quality scopes were allowed.  Would you think that situation was unfair because someone else was telling you how to go about having your hunting experience? My guess is yes, you would.  That's the way many of us feel about the AR debate.  We don't feel that it would be fair for another person to dictate our hunting experience.

Its not about fair .. its about what is right. I believe as do most biologists that passing on younger bucks is best for the whitetail to establish a good representation of age among the herd. As for a flintlock being inaccurate.. i'll shoot mine against you and your rifle any day at 100 yards ... they are remarkably accurate.. like any weapon the inaccuracy is usually on the part of the operater. So, your analogy doesn't wash. Now if you asked me if I'd be upset if they took away killing a big buck. I'd have said yes.. unless they could convince me it was for the betterment of the whitetail.

[Caveman]

I'm not trying to say muzzleloaders are inaccurate, I'm trying to make the larger argument that you would not be in favor of someone telling you that you could no longer hunt the way you want to.  Our deer herd seems plenty healthy to me (aside from the CWD aspect) and there are plenty of them.  Maybe we don't have Missouri sized bucks, that doesnt matter to me. I posted on another topic a link to an article in field and stream magazine making tha argument that the quest for big racks is killing our sport.  I'm of that opinion.  I also am of the opinion that people need to live and let live.  Respect each others hunting style and stop trying to tell each other what to do.  I'm not saying it's you, but people in these arguments remind me of the bible thunpers in politics.  They think one side is morally superior to another and try to force that idea on them.   

[nyantler]

Its not about respecting the way you hunt wildcat... or disrespecting it... I only care if its good for the whitetail or not.. if passing on small bucks is better for whitetails from a management stand point then thats whats right.. just because a hunter wants to bait deer doesn't mean I have to agree with baiting. I'm not saying you can't hunt the way you want as long as its legal, I'm just for changing the law.

[Caveman]

If the law is changed, I'll abide by it and hunt accordingly.  However, I just see no need to change it.  I feel as though this is one of those issues where no side will ever budge.  People are just going to beat it to death and not many are going to change their minds

[nyantler]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

[Doewhacker]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

hahaha Now we know you are dillusional!

"DEC supports voluntary antler restriction programs. However, DEC does not see a critical biological need or compelling management advantage to mandate such restrictions."

[steve863]

I only care if its good for the whitetail or not.. if passing on small bucks is better for whitetails from a management stand point then thats whats right..

And isn't it just a coincidence that you guys also admit that hunting trophy sized animals is what hunting is all about to you??  So exactly WHY should anyone of us believe that your true motivations are what's best for the deer and not what's best for YOU and YOUR style of hunting?  Honestly, I think anyone with half a brain could see that what you guys are all about.

[wztirem]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

Try not to lose any sleep over your baseless statement! Pleasant dreams!

[nyantler]

I've been hunting big bucks since long before you even knew what QDM was Steve. I don't need to have any laws made to help me kill big deer... I've been doing it successfully for years. You  are quick to make assumpsions about things you know nothing about. For your information I don't care whether AR happens or not... but it will. All I have said so far is that my opinion is that I am for some form of AR... because I think it's better for the whitetail.. period. But whether it happens or not makes absolutely no difference to me... I'll let the guys that say they don't have any big bucks to kill, but still support the status quo, lose the sleep.

[nyantler]

Oh and as for the thread question .. my answer would still be... nothing

[TheHunter]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

I hope so!

[wztirem]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

I hope so!

Keep sending those cards and letters to the North Pole and hope for the best!

[TheHunter]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

I hope so!

Keep sending those cards and letters to the North Pole and hope for the best!

Even they have AR's there... You see the racks on those deer! And they are nice and healthy and happy.  With out AR's Rudy would have been shot out before his nose lit up.

[steve863]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

I hope so!

You guys keep telling us to stop making comments about your AR units since we don't hunt in them and now you want the rest of the state to implement them also?  Why don't you keep your AR's to yourselves, and not push then on anyone else!  As has been posted many times before, the DEC has stated that they see NO biological need for them. I am sure that you guys will miss more than a few more deer before you see AR's implemented statewide. LOL  In fact you may be hanging up your weapons for good before you see them implemented! LOL

[TheHunter]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

I hope so!

You guys keep telling us to stop making comments about your AR units since we don't hunt in them and now you want the rest of the state to implement them also?  Why don't you keep your AR's to yourselves, and not push then on anyone else!  As has been posted many times before, the DEC has stated that they see NO biological need for them. I am sure that you guys will miss more than a few more deer before you see AR's implemented statewide. LOL  In fact you may be hanging up your weapons for good before you see them implemented! LOL

Sure why not, majority of hunters want them.  Thats coming from the DEC that you cherrish so much for their "no biological need" despite proof and studies that show otherwise.  :-*

[steve863]

I think we will see State wide AR whether you change your mind or not...

I hope so!

You guys keep telling us to stop making comments about your AR units since we don't hunt in them and now you want the rest of the state to implement them also?  Why don't you keep your AR's to yourselves, and not push then on anyone else!  As has been posted many times before, the DEC has stated that they see NO biological need for them. I am sure that you guys will miss more than a few more deer before you see AR's implemented statewide. LOL  In fact you may be hanging up your weapons for good before you see them implemented! LOL

Sure why not, majority of hunters want them.  Thats coming from the DEC that you cherrish so much for their "no biological need" despite proof and studies that show otherwise.  :-*

Yeah, proof and studies from unbiased sources like the QDMA?  LOL  If the DEC knew that AR's wouldn't tick off a good percentage of hunters out there and knew for sure that AR's were a sound biological practice, you'd be darned sure that they WOULD have already implemented them.  But the truth is that they know that a good many hunters who hunt (and purchase licenses) don't care whether the deer they shoot have big horns or not and they also know that these studies YOU talk about are very self serving an flawed in many ways.  Thus, they made the statement they did and thus we DON'T have AR's anywhere other than the units in the Catskills.  Obviously your proof and studies and the numbers of supporters out there have done JACK to convince them otherwise!

[Doewhacker]

Yes we all know 327 guys from the DEC survey in the pilot area support AR's..thats old news. I know you would rather I said 77% but that ain't gonna happen, just like state wide AR's.

[burmjohn]

Regarding the QDMA findings, who else is going to have the $ to support a study? Lets look at PA.

They came the conclusion that before AR there was a less then 20% survival rate. The majority of those bucks being taken were 1.5's.  After AR (or APRs as they call it) 1.5 bucks survival rate was increased to over 60%, and older bucks survival rate to over 34%.  In addition there has been no change to the hunters success rates of getting a buck.  So if its not reducing opportunity, yet increasing the bucks survival rate, and maturing the herd, and allowing for bigger bucks it seems like a win win.

[steve863]

Well yeah, it usually boils down to who has the $ to push their agenda.  Some sportsman clubs with some clout and $ were the ones to make AR's happen in the several units in the Catskills, and the same was tried unsuccessfully last year in a few more units.  I think the DEC wised up after being bamboozled the first time and realized what this agenda is all about.  The DEC may not be as dumb as some of you think.

[wztirem]

Well yeah, it usually boils down to who has the $ to push their agenda.  Some sportsman clubs with some clout and $ were the ones to make AR's happen in the several units in the Catskills, and the same was tried unsuccessfully last year in a few more units.  I think the DEC wised up after being bamboozled the first time and realized what this agenda is all about.  The DEC may not be as dumb as some of you think.

This then begs the question, Why does the DEC support such a program which it deems unnecessary? Enforement of this program costs money and at at time where the DEC's coffers have been reduced; perhaps the funds devoted to such a program which only serves a minority could be better off earmarked for more deserving endeavors.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

bill,,,I think it boils down to change....the same resistence to change to implement something is there to remove something...less a$$ ache to leave things as status quo. That is why I am nervous about anything that places more restrictions on any hunter. It is not so easy to go back. The groups pro AR do have $$$ backing them and when I see studies...polls and such from them with comments that make me ask questions...I really resist any change. If there is to be a study I would love to see them truely from an impartial source. It really makes me suspect when I ask questions and get no answers from the ones that believe it is for the best. I am not a fall in line and drink the kool aid type...I need to hae my quesions answered and proven to me...if not ...there is no credibility