Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[BizCT]

Figured you'd result to childish name calling. Shoot a nice buck with a bow and maybe you'll finally get "it".

 

Who are you to define the term "nice buck".  I honestly do not know him nor do I have any idea what types of bucks he has shot, but your comment is pathetic.  In my opinion, any buck in NY is a nice buck, regardless of size or weapon choice.

 

I have never in my life hunted with a compound bow like you do.  What makes any buck you shot with a compound better than any buck I shot with my shotgun?  Please don't say the challenge.  Lets examine the difference between my hunting and your elitist hunting.

 

- You hide in a treestand in camo.  I hunt on the ground (no blind) in bright orange.

- We both shoot deer under 50 yards.

- You get to hunt deer in October when they havent seen humans in the woods for 10 months.  I get to hunt deer in November after the bowhunters spooked the hell out of them.

- You probably hunt deer over or near food plots. The Deer I hunt eat tree bark.

 

So Belo, in conclusion, my biggest NY buck ever (basket 8pt, less than 90") is a NICER buck than any buck you ever shot.

 

Get my point? Nobody can tell anybody else what a "nice buck" is.

 

Lastly, Xbows will be allowed in NYS in Archery Season. Its not a question of yes or no.  It will happen, just a question of when it will begin.  Go cry somewhere. I hope some crossbow hunter shoots "your deer" from 105 yards away.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Biz-R-OWorld

[sweet old bill]

with Como and maybe no guns allowed, it may come to more support for the cross bow. At 71 and have been shooting a recurve and compound for over 50 years I do see the time when I sure no longer can draw and hold a bow and sure would love to still hunt with a cross bow.

 

I see these type of child games of my deer is better than your deer taken with a gun over a bow, sound like my Dic x is bigger than yours. We all our hunters so lets stay commitment to support all of us that love the sport.

[Doc]

Joe - it show the handful that run it are more concerned with crossbows than they where putting a gun season in the bow season.

There is no input sought or allowed prior to a ruling of the special few. No way for the members to have any say whatsoever in operation or direction.

In fact any not going with the flow are not welcome. Membership exits for the fees and to man booth's for recruitment. And new members are recruited but total membership never increases. That alone speaks volumes about them. 

And of course all that is just simply a lie. There are no depths that some won't sink to in their attempt at seeing that bowhunting remains in a disorganized state here in NY. The truth of it all is that I as a member did know about the muzzle loader compromise attempt. And I recognized it as basic appeasement and a wrong-headed attempt at compromise. I did respond along with many other members, and it no longer is a proposal. As I said in the reply that you obviously didn't read, the system worked exactly as it is supposed to. The members drove the change. That's the truth from someone who really was there at the time. It's amazing how those that aren't even members seem to speak so authoritatively about things they know nothing about. Yes, I realize that you are a past member, in and out a couple of administrations ago. Now you find it much easier to simply sit on the sidelines carping and whining with your sour grapes at a group that you no longer know a damned thing about.

 

I really don't care much about whatever bad experience you may have had years ago. For all I know it may have been something you brought on yourself. Who knows .... Who cares? But I do get a bit upset with people who blatently spread lies under the pretense of actually knowing what they are talking about.

[sits in trees]

I thought the crossbow section had a rule that stated something to the effect that "this is not the place to argue the legality of crossbows".

Hey mods why dont we move this to the general chit chat section or just close this thread because these threads never ever accomplish anything, and go on and on forever and end up the same way each and every time.

Whats this like the 6th crossbow marathon thread we have had in the last 3 years. Waste of time if you ask me.

If you haven't noticed the argument for wether crossbows should be legal or not has moved way past the internet forums stage folks.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Figured you'd result to childish name calling. Shoot a nice buck with a bow and maybe you'll finally get "it".

I didnt call you anything. I dont need to shoot a "nice" buck with a bow to get "it". I already got "it" and love archery hunting, im just not the type of guy that cops an elitist attitude and acts like my shit dont stink. You sure are though.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I wonder how the crossbow activists will welcome giving up part of their season to the early muzzleloading season when that finally gets pushed in. Can I expect you to continue with your "non-elitest" attitude by inviting anyone into the bow season that tries to force themselves in or are you going to join the hypocrits that speak a good game of being unselfish until it affects you. Let's see how you all react when the shoe is on the other foot. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised either way.

On one hand you talk about the NYB being a tiny minority in the hunting community (which they are) and then out the other side of your mouth you claim they are bullies. Actually the term bully is a stupid term to be using. If you want to say that this organization was very effective for their size and resources at defending the integrity of bowhunting and bowseason, then I will agree with you. They do seem to function very effectively when their back is against the wall and they are being attacked. I suppose that is what really irks you about them. For such a tiny organization, they sure did keep the antibow forces at bay for a heck of a long time.

Anyway, twist whatever you feel you must about the truth, but the one thing you cannot twist is the fact that the crossbow factions were the aggressors in this issue. They were the ones that decided to insert themselves into bow seasons. No amount of lying or name-calling, or stretching of the truth will hide that fact. Demonize the only NYS bowhunting advocates if that's what floats your boat. Deny all the accomplishments and good works that they do if that makes you feel better, but for crying out loud try to be a little bit honest in whatever personal problems you have with them and recognize that if the crossbow proponents hadn't decided to bulldoze their way into the sport of bowhunting, none of this angst would have ever occurred. So when the Rodney King fans come along and start whining, "Can't we all just get along", understand just who it was that had no interest in "just getting along". No, the NYB didn't fold up when put under attack, and I do thank them for doing their job in the best way possible given their size and resources.

First, i dont want any guns in archery season, other than the youth weekend, which is fine by me. Some of you guys have this misconception that I and other pro crossbow guys would want to see any weapon allowed into the early season. That simply isnt the case. I just want to see all forms of archey allowed. The stock on a crossbow doesnt mean it isnt archery. They all kill the same way, with a broadhead tipped arrow powered by a string, and they all kill at short range.

Bottom line Doc, is that NYB is only in the fight for their selfish, elitist reasons. Your pal Belo is a perfect example of the NYB "Real Hunter" attitude that makes alot of us want to puke.

[SteveB]

Doc - I know plenty of current members. Things have not changed a bit since I was a member and a county rep. Not one of those members knew anything about the leaderships attempt to give away part of the early season until it hit the paper. You are right - at THAT time most of the general membership may have voiced their displeasure (as did 10's of 1000's of nonmembers). Point is, a decision of that magnitude should have been put forth to the general members for their reaction BEFORE going public.  They backed off the agreement only when it became clear that it was a loser from the get go on all accounts and they needed to cut losses.. Not one bit of this is a "blatant lie". If it where so, I believe someone from the invisible inner circle would have become involved - they have not, I have not been approached and am far from hard to find/contact.  

 

Frankly I am surprised you would stoop to out right calling me a liar. While we have clashed in the past, I respect you and your right to your own opinions. I felt as if it might be at least moderately mutual - we agree on far more than not. I am sorry to see it is not, but have no control (or wish to) over your feelings. I can strongly discuss and debate any topic with anyone without it getting personal. It's a shame and a disservice to the forum that you are not willing to do the same.

 

 

[Doc]

Doc - I know plenty of current members. Things have not changed a bit since I was a member and a county rep. Not one of those members knew anything about the leaderships attempt to give away part of the early season until it hit the paper. You are right - at THAT time most of the general membership may have voiced their displeasure (as did 10's of 1000's of nonmembers). Point is, a decision of that magnitude should have been put forth to the general members for their reaction BEFORE going public.  They backed off the agreement only when it became clear that it was a loser from the get go on all accounts and they needed to cut losses.. Not one bit of this is a "blatant lie". If it where so, I believe someone from the invisible inner circle would have become involved - they have not, I have not been approached and am far from hard to find/contact.  

 

Frankly I am surprised you would stoop to out right calling me a liar. While we have clashed in the past, I respect you and your right to your own opinions. I felt as if it might be at least moderately mutual - we agree on far more than not. I am sorry to see it is not, but have no control (or wish to) over your feelings. I can strongly discuss and debate any topic with anyone without it getting personal. It's a shame and a disservice to the forum that you are not willing to do the same.

I simply call them like I see them. You and your friends seem to have had all the problems with the NYB while I and others have had our opinions (and demands) listened to and reacted to on that issue. I would suggest that perhaps your friends should pay a little attention to the organization that they are members of like the rest of us did, and react to things that they have problems with. This one and only bowhunter organization is operating on the up and up, and doing their best to safeguard the integrity of the bowhunting season and many other bowhunter interests and issues which is a whole lot more than you and all the other detractors are doing and I respect the fact that these guys are putting in the hours and efforts that so many refuse to invest in the sport. And so, don't expect me to stand idly by while you fill the pages of this forum with what I can only call lies. There just is no other word for it. When you put forth this kind of campaign of deceit against an honest, hard-working organization that I am a member of, you're damned right I take it personal ..... mighty personal! Frankly I am getting sick and tired of your campaign to smear this organization, and it is about time that someone on this forum called you on it. I'm a member of the NYB, and I am just as stubborn and protective of bowhunting issues as they are.

 

Oh and one more thing ..... just who do you think you are that you expect some kind of official reply from NYB. You aren't even a member. They don't owe you any kind of answer anymore, and there's no way you should be expecting any. 

[SteveB]

Whoosh - the sound when it goes right over some ones head.

 

Never said I expected a reply - only that if I was spreading "lies" someone from the organization would take it to heart and do something.

The silence is deafening but speaks volumes about the veracity of my observations.

 

Can't counter the message so you attack the messenger.

Thought you where better than that, but appears that is the 2nd thing I was wrong about you.

First being you deserved respect.

 

For the sake of the forum, I will no longer respond to your rants, name calling and other tactics which most likely will continue.

I will continue giving my opinion and participate in discussions with those capable of doing so.

You will not stifle that without resorting to misuse of your moderator status.

Have a nice day.

 

 

[Doc]

First, i dont want any guns in archery season, other than the youth weekend, which is fine by me. Some of you guys have this misconception that I and other pro crossbow guys would want to see any weapon allowed into the early season. That simply isnt the case. I just want to see all forms of archey allowed. The stock on a crossbow doesnt mean it isnt archery. They all kill the same way, with a broadhead tipped arrow powered by a string, and they all kill at short range.

Bottom line Doc, is that NYB is only in the fight for their selfish, elitist reasons. Your pal Belo is a perfect example of the NYB "Real Hunter" attitude that makes alot of us want to puke.

Ha-ha .... I see that you are just dying to start that whole redundant clap-trap of an argument about why cross bows belong in archery season. But I won't bite on that nonsense. I and many others have already described in detail why they don't belong there and I refuse to repeat it all over again. I have better things to do with my time.

 

But let me get into your bogus name-calling when it comes to the NYB. Let me explain to you the real bottom line. The fact is that when the chips are down, there's not a dime's worth of difference between your own "selfish and elitest" exclusionary attitudes and the way that the NYB tried to draw the lines. They draw it before crossbows and you claim to be drawing it after crossbows. The interesting thing is that both you and the NYB are drawing lines. If you want something to puke about, check out your own picking and choosing about what should be allowed in the early season because in truth you are claiming to be picking and choosing what belongs in bowseason just like they are. But for some reason you think it is selfish and elitist when they do it. Yes, you have decided that we can cram in just one more weapon into bowseason, and then you become just as exclusionary, as anyone, don't you? So you are also among the selfish and elitist aren't you? Damned right you are. You just want to jam crossbows into the bowseason before you become "selfish and elitist".... lol. I don't know whether you can see the hypocracy in calling the NYB names for the very same thing that you claim to want to do. When you get into name calling, make sure you are not describing actions that you are guilty of as well.

[Doc]

Whoosh - the sound when it goes right over some ones head.

 

Never said I expected a reply - only that if I was spreading "lies" someone from the organization would take it to heart and do something.

The silence is deafening but speaks volumes about the veracity of my observations.

 

Can't counter the message so you attack the messenger.

Thought you where better than that, but appears that is the 2nd thing I was wrong about you.

First being you deserved respect.

 

For the sake of the forum, I will no longer respond to your rants, name calling and other tactics which most likely will continue.

I will continue giving my opinion and participate in discussions with those capable of doing so.

You will not stifle that without resorting to misuse of your moderator status.

Have a nice day.

I'm from the organization, and I'm setting the record straight. Perhaps you are looking for some kind of official reply as I suggested in my last reply. Sorry, but you lost the right to that kind of response when you quit the organization. And yes you can sit out there taking cheap pot-shots, true or otherwise. Nobody's going to stop you. And I'm not trying to stifle anything. But I just want people to understand the lack of credibilty that such comments represent. I can't simply sit by and let such trash-talk happen without some truth being injected somewhere along the line.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ha-ha .... I see that you are just dying to start that whole redundant clap-trap of an argument about why cross bows belong in archery season. But I won't bite on that nonsense. I and many others have already described in detail why they don't belong there and I refuse to repeat it all over again. I have better things to do with my time.

But let me get into your bogus name-calling when it comes to the NYB. Let me explain to you the real bottom line. The fact is that when the chips are down, there's not a dime's worth of difference between your own "selfish and elitest" exclusionary attitudes and the way that the NYB tried to draw the lines. They draw it before crossbows and you claim to be drawing it after crossbows. The interesting thing is that both you and the NYB are drawing lines. If you want something to puke about, check out your own picking and choosing about what should be allowed in the early season because in truth you are claiming to be picking and choosing what belongs in bowseason just like they are. But for some reason you think it is selfish and elitist when they do it. Yes, you have decided that we can cram in just one more weapon into bowseason, and then you become just as exclusionary, as anyone, don't you? So you are also among the selfish and elitist aren't you? Damned right you are. You just want to jam crossbows into the bowseason before you become "selfish and elitist".... lol. I don't know whether you can see the hypocracy in calling the NYB names for the very same thing that you claim to want to do. When you get into name calling, make sure you are not describing actions that you are guilty of as well.

My desire that NY should allow all forms of archery equipment into archery season is niether elitist or selfish. Its Archery season, not gun season, therefore anything that is not archery equipment (ie guns) dont belong. I dont care that you think something that shoots arrows off of a string isnt a bow, thats merely your opinion, backed up by nothing. Youre entitled to it no mater how much it cant stand up to a simple definition. Anywho....

BTW, describing an attitude as elitist or selfish is not name calling, but ya know, dont let that stop you from accusing me of it.

[Doc]

My desire that NY should allow all forms of archery equipment into archery season is niether elitist or selfish. Its Archery season, not gun season, therefore anything that is not archery equipment (ie guns) dont belong. I dont care that you think something that shoots arrows off of a string isnt a bow, thats merely your opinion, backed up by nothing. Youre entitled to it no mater how much it cant stand up to a simple definition. Anywho....

BTW, describing an attitude as elitist or selfish is not name calling, but ya know, dont let that stop you from accusing me of it.

Well, as I said, you just choose a different starting point for your exclusionary, elitist and selfish attitudes (your definition not mine) to kick in. All the things that you accuse the NYB of being, fit right into your attitudes once you have crammed the crossbows into the season. You still have ideas of excluding some hunters from the early bow season and that attitude is what you are calling elitist and selfish. No difference. And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being selective as to what goes into "special seasons". That's what makes them special. And that is exactly what the NYB is saying. But don't be calling the NYB names for the very same thing that you want to do. You simply have a difference of opinion with the NYB as to where to draw the line and you choose to rant and rave and villify them with name-calling because of it. If that's the way you handle differences of opinion.... well what can I say about that? That just sounds like some kind of personal problem to me......lol.

[phade]

At one point or another everyone in here has been called elitist or selfish. And, it has been 100% true all the way around.

 

Quite frankly, call me elitist. I don't care, because I agree. Doesn't make my, or anyone's viewpoints any less valid.

[Doc]

At one point or another everyone in here has been called elitist or selfish. And, it has been 100% true all the way around.

 

Quite frankly, call me elitist. I don't care, because I agree. Doesn't make my, or anyone's viewpoints any less valid.

Yeah, it's almost a badge of honor ..... lol. These kinds of terms just generally mean that you have driven someone to the point where they can't really figure out anything intelligent to say, so they just blurt out the old tried and true cliches.

[Five Seasons]

If enough hunters feel that crossbows should be let into the archery season, the that's how it should be... it shouldn't be decided by 2000 bowhunters. Although I agree that NYB can be commended for keeping to its stance... if you believe in something that whole heartedly you should defend it... that at least shows a little moxy.

 

I don't know why you have to belong to NYB to be opposed to crossbows. For some reason it's being thrown around on this board that the 2k members of NYB are the only ones opposed. I know several non-members opposed. I also know several non-members of the coalition that are for crossbows.

 

Please for the sake of this debate, lets stop using this number as the end all be all of those in support or against. What you can do, is ascertain that this number is so strongly opposed that they've forked over some cash and in some members case their time to oppose it. It keeps being referred to as a minority and not speaking for the people, but the even smaller and younger group known as the "coalition" somehow can speak for bowhunters? It's so black and white, I'm not sure why we keep debating it. Some are for, some are against them. Both sides make valid and stupid arguments.

[BizCT]

Nothing to debate. It will happen. Just a question of when.<br /><br />Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[Five Seasons]

Joe - it show the handful that run it are more concerned with crossbows than they where putting a gun season in the bow season.

There is no input sought or allowed prior to a ruling of the special few. No way for the members to have any say whatsoever in operation or direction.

In fact any not going with the flow are not welcome. Membership exits for the fees and to man booth's for recruitment. And new members are recruited but total membership never increases. That alone speaks volumes about them. 

 

where do you keep getting these member statistics from? You know how "the people" can control an organization? Not pay their fees. It's quite obvious there are enough members who still believe in the cause to pay their annual fee. Do you think any organization doesn't have change in membership?

 

 

- You probably hunt deer over or near food plots. The Deer I hunt eat tree bark.

 

So Belo, in conclusion, my biggest NY buck ever (basket 8pt, less than 90") is a NICER buck than any buck you ever shot.

 

Nice and hypocritical for you to get all upset at me for jumping to conclusion about someone else hunting, and then for you to do it yourself. And your comments are fair, and I was a little annoyed at some of the posts when I made that comment. I guess my point was that while it's not always the case, it seems a majority of crossbow proponents are not diehard bowhunters. (not all, but most).

 

and fwiw, I've never hunted over a food plot. I have stalked, I have hunted from the ground with a gun and 35' in a tree. I hunt all 3 seasons and love all 3 for the challenges they each posses. I've shot big deer, small deer and inbetween. First and foremost I'm an advocate for the right to hunt. I don't see the NYB opposition to crossbows as being anti-hunter. Like I and others have said over and over, if you want to hunt early season learn to shoot a bow. I've yet to hear your reasoning on why you dont hunt with a bow.

 

Things have not changed a bit since I was a member and a county rep.

 

the more and more I read your posts, the clearer it becomes you have an issue with the NYB. That's fine. I'm sure you have your reasons. But I'm wondering if your argument is more with their leadership than it is with the topic of this thread.

 

Nothing to debate. It will happen. Just a question of when.<br /><br />Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

 

yeah I've been hearing that for 5 or so years now.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Belo

[SteveB]

Leadership is a huge factor - rotating from pretty much the same pool

 

On the membership dropped to 2000 from 4000 in the 90's while recruiting 100's new each year.

From the website history, info from the inside and experience.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

How would the guys against crossbows being included feel about a mandatory vote by only bowhunters holding a valiid bowhunting license? How do you think the tally would pan out?

[Five Seasons]

How would the guys against crossbows being included feel about a mandatory vote by only bowhunters holding a valiid bowhunting license? How do you think the tally would pan out?

 

i bet crossbows would pass. I think there are enough people who dont feel strongly enough on the subject where they would see no harm in voting them in. But I also feel this is very similar to gun control. Polls show the majority of NYS believe in the SAFE Act. To me, all that tells me is there are enough non-gun owners who aren't affected by the act to vote in favor. Which brings us back to square one. What really is the impact of allowing crossbows into the archery season. And I'd point you to the report linked in Phade's original post, and others posted throughout the year. So every bowhunter, may really not know what they're signing up for. Just like all the Obama voters found out.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It is apples and oranges Belo. I am not talking about a vote in an nonparticipating group like the Safe act vote would include. A more accurate example would be to ask about an assault weapon ban among gun owners or a pistol magazine reduction among all gun owners. I am not talking about asking all hunters I mean to ask just bow hunters. (FYI the support is coming from downstate) The numbers do not hold for upsate. Unfortunately we can't just give the City away. I would be happy with any purchase offer that gets our investment of $23 in trinkets and beads back...lol.

[Five Seasons]

they still owe us for the small pox infested blankets. And I do see your point. But I still feel the general bowhunter may not have all the facts. If you were to ask America to vote on having a $1k per family stimulus package; what do you think the outcome would be? People would be jumping for joy with the checks as they arrived. But only a small percentage would understand the long term ramifications the China borrowed stimulus would have on the economy. It's why sometimes, you can't allow the people to vote on things.

[d-bone20917]

How would the guys against crossbows being included feel about a mandatory vote by only bowhunters holding a valiid bowhunting license? How do you think the tally would pan out?

 

I think crossbows would be voted down if only bowhunters voted.  And I think it would be a landslide.  The only people I know personally that support crossbows in archery are people that don't bow hunt and see crossbows as an easy way to get into it.  

[verminater71]

This whole thing is really a joke, and some of you on both sides need to come off your pedestals

 

I hear this argument all the time by people who don’t have a rite to bit**

 

1 Do you own land?

1. Then make your own rules and don’t allow them

2. You don’t own land? Huh

            A. how dare you try to tell a landowner what type of bow they can use on land they pay taxes on

 

How about a  little compromise

 

If the state wants to keep state land compound only, O.K

 

However don’t dare tell a taxpayer what kind of bow he can use