Property Purchase Journal

[phade]

I am going to update progress on my search for property. Namely for hunting purposes but also for cash/crop rent, timber, asset holding.

I am planning to do a cash deal or finance based on options at the given time and the property itself. Funding is "secured" already for financing through Farm Credit. Should I finance, I do plan to pay off the note within 2-3 years max and pursue a second property or sell with the intent of relaying it through 1031 should that still exist (who knows today). I do plan to improve the property for hunting value and resale value, so hopefully the 1031 path leads to an even better property down the road.

I am willing to purchase in NY, OH, IL, IN, KY, MO. KS and NE are just too far for me, but I don't want to fully rule them out, ha. 

I've inquired about a few parcels here in NY this past week. Consistently, the taxes stand out. They are flat out high, compared to a few out of state parcels. It's shockingly high. Example, a $180K parcel for 60 acres in MO would land at the same monthly payment as a $130K parcel with less than 20 acres here in NY. It has my head spinning to be honest. I know there are things that can be done to reduce tax implications, and it doesn't take into account income, but that basis just boggles my mind. 

More to come...

[TheHornHunter]

Good luck with this! Make sure you true up the assessment value to what you're planning to pay to adjust for what your actual tax load is going to be. I've pretty much given up on buying NY land at this point, math just doesn't work

[BizCT]

Good luck. Just curious why you don’t have PA on your list?


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[E J]

Good luck! It'll be fun to follow the progress.

[phade]

13 hours ago, BizCT said:

Good luck. Just curious why you don’t have PA on your list?


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No interest in PA for alot of reasons. Sunday hunting IMO is still a hornet's nest. PA has a large hunting population, the opening regular season is within 48 hours of Ohio (I don't plan on dropping my lease there any time soon), and doesn't produce the deer hunting quality on a macro level that I am looking to buy into. I equate PA and NY as being close to one in the same netting out, with slight differences in pros/cons. NY is just where I live so that is on the list due to default/practicality and I am in a better area of the state for hunting. I would not entertain NY outside of my local area (IE within a 90 min drive or so).

Let's be real, there are a pockets where good and great quality east coast hunting is available, but on the whole it doesn't compare to the midwest. Finding those pockets and being able to buy in at the right deal/price/scenario would be hard. 

[phade]

14 hours ago, TheHornHunter said:

Good luck with this! Make sure you true up the assessment value to what you're planning to pay to adjust for what your actual tax load is going to be. I've pretty much given up on buying NY land at this point, math just doesn't work

Thanks, and yes sir, that true up in the example I shared was brutal. It's hard to imagine repetitive tax implications at those rates. I liked the property - smaller than what I wanted and more $ per acre than I felt warranted. But it hunts right at the end of the day and I could swallow a one time purchase on it and not dwell. All that said, the taxes alone at the projected rate would be $1K more than my Ohio lease that has 210-220 acres on two separate parcels. And our lease pays the taxes on those parcels in full. 

I'd need a perfect Goldilocks property here in NY IMO. Seems like the choices fall into - good hunting in small acreage around our general area, with big money taxes, or you go further south with bigger parcels and less ag/rent opportunities.

[phade]

One update about financing. FCE seems to be grouped within the 7 NE states. Anything within those spaces are pretty black and white. The peer/partner farm credits somehow work together on deals where it's out of their jurisdiction but at times will still hold the note. I have to assume due to the complexities around the "sales" process of the financial rep, the legalities of the money movement, and likelihood of default on something out of the area. The financial rep I am working with basically said to go have at it, short of MO, which he might have to partner with a peer Farm Credit. He said that shouldn't impede the process. I still need to dig in more on the out of area lending but due to my current state, the rep was willing to have FCE take on the note. 

Oddly enough, he said PA was the funky outlier in the NE. Didn't go into detail and since PA is not of interest to me, I didn't ask why.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by phade

[hunter]

Phade, I wish you all the luck in the world but this new set of clearly anti hunter anti legal sportsmen and women laws is making me think of leaving. Not to argue with you but I take Pennsylvania's friendly attitude towards sportsmen and the second amendment more than the quality of the deer. I just sold a property in NY and am considering selling my other two and going where the state is not trying to arrest me for nothing. Pa is high on the list for me. Best of luck in you quest.

[escpen]

I'll be watching this one closely - good luck!

[phade]

17 hours ago, hunter said:

Phade, I wish you all the luck in the world but this new set of clearly anti hunter anti legal sportsmen and women laws is making me think of leaving. Not to argue with you but I take Pennsylvania's friendly attitude towards sportsmen and the second amendment more than the quality of the deer. I just sold a property in NY and am considering selling my other two and going where the state is not trying to arrest me for nothing. Pa is high on the list for me. Best of luck in you quest.

Thanks and I am sure everyone has their reasons and I don't intend for this to be political. I have zero desire for PA property. I even avoid flying American so I can avoid flying into Philly as a layover. Sunday hunting as an issue in PA in 2022 is all that needs to be known for me. It is not hunter friendly, especially to those who travel distance or have a job that only affords them weekends. 

I have zero desire to buy property I cannot use nearly 15% of the season or once a week. Screw that, IMO. I understand others may have different views, but it's not for me.

Edited September 8, 2022 by phade

[phade]

The one NY property I used in the example accepted an offer above asking price. Based on what I can tell, taxes were close to doubling with the ask price, and now, then some. Sounds like the buyer is planning on putting in a very big, very expensive home.

Not much else floating about in NY that I am coming across. A few Ohio properties, a few Kentucky properties, and one Missouri parcel are on the docket to inquire about. I may be planning a day of property visits in next week or two for Ohio/possibly Kentucky. One Ohio piece looks good for what it is and pricing is not bad, but it's still a touch smaller acreage wise and I wish the field component was not all roadside. Looks like it'd hunt well for 2-3 people at a time with no concern and I like the bedding and terrain features inside the timber.

Hunting season starts in Ohio on 9/24. So, it may get interesting in terms of visits early in the day and scooting back up to hunt PMs. We will see. 

[escpen]

Do the properties in Ohio, Kentucky and Missouri come with OGM rights?  Very little of what I've looked at in Ohio has them, which has turned me off a bit.  But maybe it's not as much of a concern as I've made it out to be.

[9jNYstarkOH]

33 minutes ago, phade said:

The one NY property I used in the example accepted an offer above asking price. Based on what I can tell, taxes were close to doubling with the ask price, and now, then some. Sounds like the buyer is planning on putting in a very big, very expensive home.

Not much else floating about in NY that I am coming across. A few Ohio properties, a few Kentucky properties, and one Missouri parcel are on the docket to inquire about. I may be planning a day of property visits in next week or two for Ohio/possibly Kentucky. One Ohio piece looks good for what it is and pricing is not bad, but it's still a touch smaller acreage wise and I wish the field component was not all roadside. Looks like it'd hunt well for 2-3 people at a time with no concern and I like the bedding and terrain features inside the timber.

Hunting season starts in Ohio on 9/24. So, it may get interesting in terms of visits early in the day and scooting back up to hunt PMs. We will see. 

What areas of Ohio are you looking in?

[phade]

7 minutes ago, escpen said:

Do the properties in Ohio, Kentucky and Missouri come with OGM rights?  Very little of what I've looked at in Ohio has them, which has turned me off a bit.  But maybe it's not as much of a concern as I've made it out to be.

I am sensitive to that as well. I'm finding a mixed bag, but not all of the properties have them retained. Some include all or portions. Even seen some where the seller is retaining 50% and including 50%. Which is interesting - who makes the decision, lol.

[hunter]

Phade, as a retiree I guess I'm not as sensitive to the Sunday ban as well as being used to it in Maine but I def see your point. I think Pa is moving away from the Sunday ban as last season I believe they allowed Sunday hunting on each opening weekend; bow, gun and ML. Hopefully. Any interest in Tenn? I heard land was affordable there a while back when down there.

[phade]

3 hours ago, 9jNYstarkOH said:

What areas of Ohio are you looking in?

The usual - draw a line NE to SW and the right side of that.

[BizCT]

2 hours ago, hunter said:

Phade, as a retiree I guess I'm not as sensitive to the Sunday ban as well as being used to it in Maine but I def see your point. I think Pa is moving away from the Sunday ban as last season I believe they allowed Sunday hunting on each opening weekend; bow, gun and ML. Hopefully. Any interest in Tenn? I heard land was affordable there a while back when down there.

CT finally allows sunday hunting on private land only. stateland/public is still no sundays.

@phade does Missouri have mule deer also? That would be fun to consider if possible.

[phade]

1 hour ago, hunter said:

Phade, as a retiree I guess I'm not as sensitive to the Sunday ban as well as being used to it in Maine but I def see your point. I think Pa is moving away from the Sunday ban as last season I believe they allowed Sunday hunting on each opening weekend; bow, gun and ML. Hopefully. Any interest in Tenn? I heard land was affordable there a while back when down there.

It's a slow process for PA to get all Sundays in. I couldn't imagine being a hunter in PA and only having one day a week to hunt if I am stuck w/weekends. I'd probably give the sport up in that case. It's short sighted IMO and a big barrier for ownership for me.

Tenn is not on the radar for me. Hunting quality is getting better there as time goes on but if I have to drive that far to get there, I'd rather turn the wheel more westerly to better deer states. I do have access to a property there and likely will go down this spring for turkey and next fall for deer - velvet maybe. I'm setting that property up with camera surveillance as the owner is also from NY. 

[phade]

1 minute ago, BizCT said:

CT finally allows sunday hunting on private land only. stateland/public is still no sundays.

@phade does Missouri have mule deer also? That would be fun to consider if possible.

The west side has some elk/mulies but rare. I'd probably pursue hunts rather than property for things like Elk and Mulies. Elk scares me a bit because of how much people say it ruins whitetail hunting. I know I'd like it but at the same time dread pursuing the opportunity given I am not likely to be out there as often. My guess is 2024. I think 2023 is going to be Iowa draw. Been sitting on those points and its time to make it happen. 

[phade]

I'm debating the merits of sending letters to prospective owners/sellers. It surely seems like anything that makes it to open market is lacking in some capacity - whether price, acreage, property design, etc.

I keep coming back to one particular parcel in Ohio that is lower in my pricepoint but looks good from a hunting POV and layout. Negatives are that it's 7 hours drive, so it's pretty far down into Ohio and the acreage is smaller than what I want. I believe I could effectively hunt 3-4 guys on it with bow at a time (not sustained), and regular would easily work 2. Access is via one road on one side - nice but challenging if you get the wrong wind. So, some considerations to make on pursuing or not. 

Kentucky looks real interesting too despite drive time, I'm getting more educated with the better counties etc. Indiana - haven't seen a thing I like. Illinois is super expensive with similar tax issue as NY. Missouri has a few nice ones but haven't seen the must have aerial/topo yet. 

 

[TLR]

Look west Montana,Idaho,Colorado,Wyoming  etc  multiple species great return in investment and low taxes  

[TLR]

West Virginia,is a solid option 

[BizCT]

42 minutes ago, phade said:

I'm debating the merits of sending letters to prospective owners/sellers. It surely seems like anything that makes it to open market is lacking in some capacity - whether price, acreage, property design, etc.

I keep coming back to one particular parcel in Ohio that is lower in my pricepoint but looks good from a hunting POV and layout. Negatives are that it's 7 hours drive, so it's pretty far down into Ohio and the acreage is smaller than what I want. I believe I could effectively hunt 3-4 guys on it with bow at a time (not sustained), and regular would easily work 2. Access is via one road on one side - nice but challenging if you get the wrong wind. So, some considerations to make on pursuing or not. 

Kentucky looks real interesting too despite drive time, I'm getting more educated with the better counties etc. Indiana - haven't seen a thing I like. Illinois is super expensive with similar tax issue as NY. Missouri has a few nice ones but haven't seen the must have aerial/topo yet. 

 

I find it amazing how many people live so far from land they own and it makes me wonder why or how they have it. I use ONX to target properties to try to contact people and lots of times they live thousands of miles away yet own 5-15 random acres of land in 3S (westchester)

[Robhuntandfish]

51 minutes ago, phade said:

I'm debating the merits of sending letters to prospective owners/sellers. It surely seems like anything that makes it to open market is lacking in some capacity - whether price, acreage, property design, etc.

I keep coming back to one particular parcel in Ohio that is lower in my pricepoint but looks good from a hunting POV and layout. Negatives are that it's 7 hours drive, so it's pretty far down into Ohio and the acreage is smaller than what I want. I believe I could effectively hunt 3-4 guys on it with bow at a time (not sustained), and regular would easily work 2. Access is via one road on one side - nice but challenging if you get the wrong wind. So, some considerations to make on pursuing or not. 

Kentucky looks real interesting too despite drive time, I'm getting more educated with the better counties etc. Indiana - haven't seen a thing I like. Illinois is super expensive with similar tax issue as NY. Missouri has a few nice ones but haven't seen the must have aerial/topo yet. 

 

your into it serious for sure.  Hell I have a spot or two that are 35 minutes from the house and i dont go cause i dont want drive there.  lol 

I know NY isnt Iowa but always thought it would be better served to be close esp the older one gets.  And also all the time and money invested in travel can be invested into improvements in the land.  Might be cheaper in another state but time is even more valuable than money.  And could spend more time with improvements and still have some great deer to hunt nearby.  Unless i was planning to retire in that area one day. 

[BizCT]

RE: kentucky............I follow whitetail crossings on Instagram for several years. The guy is originally from NY. Ive talked to him several times through private message even though I haven't hunted with him. He might be someone you may want to reach out to for some input on KY land.