Here's a fight starter

[burmjohn]

I'm for 100% for AR's in my area.

[burmjohn]

How can a deer get older if dec can't stop poachers

and trespassers ...its a point that can get argued for ever

but if a kid wants to go out and shoot a spike as his first

deer should that be wrong no i don't think it should

not everybody has monster deer running around..like i stated

before. a Ar might work in certain countys but not around here

 

 

Hunters aged 12-16 years are already exempt from the three point requirement. 

[SteveB]

I can understand a newbie hunter  wanting to get on the board and just kill some deer but I don't know why anyone with several years and some good kills under the belt would want to take anything less than a 6.

Let the spikes walk, but shoot a 6 even if it's a 1 or 2.5?

Still a young deer. 

 

I hunt on a family dairy farm. We don't shoot anything less that 8's. Problem is a lot of our land borders state land and you get guys going in that will shoot small bucks that they wouldn't on their own property. I've let a lot of small ones walk just to see them in the back of a pickup on the way out. My opinion is If you want meat take a nice doe and let the little guys walk

 

Let the spikes walk, but shoot an 8 even if it's a 1 or 2.5?

Still a young deer.

 

i personally would not be bothered if AR's were put into place in all WMU's. i personally have a bar higher then AR's anyway but thats just me. 

i mean really, how many people would really be affected so bad by this? so you shoot a deer with 3 points on one side.. lay off the spikes and fork horns, is it really that bad?? 

 

 

Let the spikes walk, but shoot an 8 even if it's a 1 or 2.5?

Still a young deer. And ones with the best potential.

 

Points based AR cannot make any real statistical difference as long as the young deer still get targeted and shot. Unless what the AR supporters really want is a little bit older deer, but really don't care about hunting actual mature bucks.

 

Holding out for a 6 or better with no regard for age is just a cop out feel good management strategy.

[SteveB]

1.5 buck (spike or 6/8 pt) = 8 yr human

 

2.5 buck (spike or 6/8 pt) = 13 yr human

 

3.5 buck = 18 yr hunan - not mature enough to drink.

 

http://easycalculation.com/other/fun/Deer-years-to-Human-years.html

[Geno C]

Let the spikes walk, but shoot a 6 even if it's a 1 or 2.5?

Still a young deer. 

 

 

Let the spikes walk, but shoot an 8 even if it's a 1 or 2.5?

Still a young deer.

 

Let the spikes walk, but shoot an 8 even if it's a 1 or 2.5?

Still a young deer. And ones with the best potential.

 

Points based AR cannot make any real statistical difference as long as the young deer still get targeted and shot. Unless what the AR supporters really want is a little bit older deer, but really don't care about hunting actual mature bucks.

 

Holding out for a 6 or better with no regard for age is just a cop out feel good management strategy.

 

 

thats your answer for everyone? how many 1.5 old 8s do you have on tap in your area???

 

its a proven fact, when small deer are passed they get bigger. the whole idea about AR's is antler restrictions NOT age restrictions. some guys cant even tell the difference between a button and a doe so enforcing an age structure would be a LONG SHOT. id rather see something done to promote giving deer a chance to make it out of ONE season... this state has great capabilities to produce even more bigger deer and the ones that make it to the next season will in deed get older. kind of like how we have 3.5 plus through out NY. could you imagine if we had more then just a few here n there.

 

funny how the guys who are against AR's happen to shoot anything they see really to fill a freezer but their main argument in AGE???? why do meat hunters care so much about age but not about AR's? if meat hunters fill a freezer WTH do they care about age? who said anything about age? let a small buck go and he makes it the season he gets older and bigger. are you following?

[Csk21]

I prefer younger deer as I focus on meat and the younger deer are less tough and milder in flavor. So I should be punished because some he-man wants to show how great he is by hanging a big rack on his wall? Do whats right for the deer population.

Ah. There it is...I was wondering when a venison connoisseur would come along and use the " I shoot young deer because they taste better" argument...I'd suggests a good cookbook.

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/blogs/the-ethical-hunter/food-friday-what-should-venison-taste-like

[WesternNY]

Steve there is a huge difference in an animal from 1.5 to 3.5  huge.   A 1.5 year old buck is the easiest deer to harvest.

 

The whole meat hunters thing.... I get it, but I laugh when I hear people complain about the $98 spent on a tag and being told what to harvest.  If it is about meat take that 98 and buy beef on sale.

 

Do fisherman complain when they have to release a smaller fish???

 

If it is about meat, I would think you would want to have a bigger buck for more meat.

 

AR's are NOT perfect no one here has every said they were perfect from all the threads I have read.  They are work in PA, PA hunters are seeing and harvesting better bucks, both better antler and more meat.   There harvest numbers are still high, and yes 1.5 year olds still get taken due to the fact that AR's do not protect 100% of all 1.5 year olds.

 

Again, my stance has been clear in many threads, I don't think they would be good as a statewide mandatory law.  The state differs in habitat and herd density too much.  I would like to see Voluntary AR's.

 

 

 

 

[SteveB]

Steve there is a huge difference in an animal from 1.5 to 3.5  huge. 

 

Obviously - but neither is mature 

 

A 1.5 year old buck is the easiest deer to harvest.

 

 

Then why choose a system where the best of the 1.5 are legal to shoot and are in fact targeted.

In 7j and h, nearly 2/3 of the 1.5 are 6 or better.

 

If hunters truly care about balancing age structure, they will learn to get a feel for the age of bucks and quit killing the young ones just because they meet an arbitrary points number. 

 

I am in no way trying to argue that there are no positives to letting bucks get older - I do it myself and talk to others about it all the time for education. What I am saying is don't make a system mandatory that sounds good short term, but will have have little long term statistical difference in much of the state. Especially when the mind set will be a 1.5 or 2.5 is great as long as it has X number of points.  Education while slower, will have a real long term effect when hunters learn to understand it. But as a society we want the quick fix feel good solution even if it is no fix at all.

 

 

 

 

[Doewhacker]

.

 

the whole meat hunters thing.... I get it, but I laugh when I hear people complain about the $98 spent on a tag and being told what to harvest.  If it is about meat take that 98 and buy beef on sale.

 

 

 

Do fisherman complain when they have to release a smaller fish???

 

.

 

.  I would like to see Voluntary AR's.

 

 

1 You can't buy venison in the grocery store so how can you make that comparison.

 

2 There is no catch and release in hunting, also can't make a comparison there.

 

3 I agree

 

This is a general statement:

 

Nothing has changed on this AR issue, it is still a social issue, it still doesn't change things that dramitcally to make a difference one way or the other. It increases the number of 2yr olds that are killed which, in my book, are not that much more impressive than a 1yr old. The fact that DEC has come out a said basicaly, "We will do what the hunters want and not what is best for us" is what is the worst part to me. Maybe next time hunters will want to increase bag limits, leagalize night hunting or what ever else we could dream up. If we all agree then its a good idea right? Even if it is not a decision based on any thing other than opinion.

[Cory]

actually Wegmans does sell venison and buffalo meat along with other game meats. let the young ones grow shoot a doe they taste better anyway.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[Culvercreek hunt club]

actually Wegmans does sell venison and buffalo meat along with other game meats. let the young ones grow shoot a doe they taste better anyway.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

Take a look at the doe permit areas of the state. The entire state does NOT have doe hunting and some areas have very limited permits. What do you say to the hunters in those areas? Eat your tags they taste better anyway??

[Doewhacker]

actually Wegmans does sell venison and buffalo meat along with other game meats. let the young ones grow shoot a doe they taste better anyway.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

Actualy not every where in the state you can shoot a doe and not every where has Wegamns..and farm deer do not tatse the same as wild deer..actualy.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Obviously - but neither is mature 

 

 

Then why choose a system where the best of the 1.5 are legal to shoot and are in fact targeted.

In 7j and h, nearly 2/3 of the 1.5 are 6 or better.

 

If hunters truly care about balancing age structure, they will learn to get a feel for the age of bucks and quit killing the young ones just because they meet an arbitrary points number. 

 

I am in no way trying to argue that there are no positives to letting bucks get older - I do it myself and talk to others about it all the time for education. What I am saying is don't make a system mandatory that sounds good short term, but will have have little long term statistical difference in much of the state. Especially when the mind set will be a 1.5 or 2.5 is great as long as it has X number of points.  Education while slower, will have a real long term effect when hunters learn to understand it. But as a society we want the quick fix feel good solution even if it is no fix at all.

 

 

I many areas there would still be a pretty good harvest rate for 1.5's even with AR's but and here is the big but. I bet the majority of hunters out there could not tell the difference in a 1.5, 2.5 or 3.5 if they could not see the head. I am not knocking anyone. Heck I really couldn't until I really started to take advantage of some edumacation...(lol). It is by far not a perfect system but it is probably the easiest  for the hunters to utilize. Will it protect the majority of 1.5's? probably no. I know it wouldn't were I hunt out her in WNY.

 

As far as taking the best out of the herd with AR's. That isn't really true. That first rack really isn't a good indicator of the deers potential. There are many other factors that paly a much bigger role in what that deer will have for antlers in the first year.  One of the largest factors is if the doe was bred early and if the buck fawn was dropped early. That spike may very well never be the brute that a 1.5 year old will be a 3.5 but there are som many other factors, outside of genetics that dictate that.

 

He is actually a very good article about antler growth potential.

 

http://www.qdma.com/articles/will-he-be-a-good-one-next-year?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Oct+3+Newsletter+-Chestnut+Magic+friends&utm_content=Oct+3+Newsletter+-Chestnut+Magic+friends+CID_80e602c97f4eb8de6fc8c7378e7d3afa&utm_source=Campaign+Monitor&utm_term=Will+He+Be+a+Good+One+Next+Year

[Five Seasons]

1.5 buck (spike or 6/8 pt) = 8 yr human

 

2.5 buck (spike or 6/8 pt) = 13 yr human

 

3.5 buck = 18 yr hunan - not mature enough to drink.

 

http://easycalculation.com/other/fun/Deer-years-to-Human-years.html

 

now you're just getting silly. Is the 3 point rule perfect? No. I've seen monster 4's that were easily 3.5's. I've seen basket 1.5 year old 8's. ARs will always be nit picked for the outliers, but truth in the matter it's the best you can hope for except for maybe implementing a 1 buck rule. And yes a 2.5 year old is still not mature... but shooting 2.5's is not the end of the world either.

[bluecoupe]

Am i reading this right? Since i dont care about racks or ARs...means i dont put time or effort into my hunting?

 

I don't believe I said any such thing. There's no such thing as a blanket "all" kind of statement. All I said was that currently if you want the big boys you usually have to put a lot of time and effort into finding them.  Granted there are those  who by luck just have one walk by but to continually get big deer it requires work.  ARs diminish that requirement which, IMO is why most people that favor ARs, do so.

 

A bit touchy?

 

[bluecoupe]

If you're a meat hunter what's wrond with just bagging a doe? Because not everyone can get a doe permit in their area. Like me

 

Not a thing.  I've actually said before in this forum that I *prefer* does and I do focus on them but I still have a buck tag and would much prefer a younger, typically smaller racked buck versus an older bigger one.  Why should I be forced to pass on spikes etc so others can hang antlers on their walls?

[bluecoupe]

Ah. There it is...I was wondering when a venison connoisseur would come along and use the " I shoot young deer because they taste better" argument...I'd suggests a good cookbook.

http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/blogs/the-ethical-hunter/food-friday-what-should-venison-taste-like

 

Wow, leave for one day and what a flood! lol

Why is is though that there are always some who feel they must berate others in some way if others don't happen to have the same views, opinion, or ideas?  It seems to me that adults should understand that people see, hear, feel, and taste things differently.

Some are ticklish, some aren't.  Some like blue, some don't.  Ever taste something that tasted like it'd gone bad but someone else taste it and they think it's fine?  Everybody has their own opinion, and to them, it's the right one.  Expounding that someone is wrong simply because you don't agree is absurd.

In my case, I can tell the difference between an older, tougher piece of meat than a younger more tender less gamey piece of meat. People have tried blind taste tests on me.  Now, that said; I don't cook venison steak to death.  I cook it medium rare and it's not flavored with everything else under the sun. Salt and pepper, hot pan, medium rare - done.   As for my cooking skills, I've been in the kitchen for over 50 years and can certainly hold my own with most people.

How about simply voicing your opinion in a non-berating tone in the future rather than resorting to lowlife personal attacks on people whom you have no idea in the world who you're dealing with.  People aren't wrong simply because they state something that you happen to not agree with. 

 

[GreeneHunter]

Wow, leave for one day and what a flood! lol

Why is is though that there are always some who feel they must berate others in some way if others don't happen to have the same views, opinion, or ideas?  It seems to me that adults should understand that people see, hear, feel, and taste things differently.

Some are ticklish, some aren't.  Some like blue, some don't.  Ever taste something that tasted like it'd gone bad but someone else taste it and they think it's fine?  Everybody has their own opinion, and to them, it's the right one.  Expounding that someone is wrong simply because you don't agree is absurd.

In my case, I can tell the difference between an older, tougher piece of meat than a younger more tender less gamey piece of meat. People have tried blind taste tests on me.  Now, that said; I don't cook venison steak to death.  I cook it medium rare and it's not flavored with everything else under the sun. Salt and pepper, hot pan, medium rare - done.   As for my cooking skills, I've been in the kitchen for over 50 years and can certainly hold my own with most people.

How about simply voicing your opinion in a non-berating tone in the future rather than resorting to lowlife personal attacks on people whom you have no idea in the world who you're dealing with.  People aren't wrong simply because they state something that you happen to not agree with. 

 

Well Stated .... and I agree !

[bluecoupe]

Steve there is a huge difference in an animal from 1.5 to 3.5  huge.   A 1.5 year old buck is the easiest deer to harvest.

 

The whole meat hunters thing.... I get it, but I laugh when I hear people complain about the $98 spent on a tag and being told what to harvest.  If it is about meat take that 98 and buy beef on sale.

 

Do fisherman complain when they have to release a smaller fish???

 

If it is about meat, I would think you would want to have a bigger buck for more meat.

 

AR's are NOT perfect no one here has every said they were perfect from all the threads I have read.  They are work in PA, PA hunters are seeing and harvesting better bucks, both better antler and more meat.   There harvest numbers are still high, and yes 1.5 year olds still get taken due to the fact that AR's do not protect 100% of all 1.5 year olds.

 

Again, my stance has been clear in many threads, I don't think they would be good as a statewide mandatory law.  The state differs in habitat and herd density too much.  I would like to see Voluntary AR's.

 

 

I understand your points and it's nothing about $, at least in my case and it's also not about size, it's about personal preferences. It's not the same as comparing a 3" trout to a 18".  Two deer can be the same physical size and have massively different head gear depending on genetics and food supply.    We can debate all night and day and never come to any consensus of agreement. That's why I support putting it to a vote based on DMU and let the majority decide, not some money grubbing politician who are only interested in who's putting money in their pockets.  We, the sportsmen should decide.

 

[TeeBugg]

I don't believe I said any such thing. There's no such thing as a blanket "all" kind of statement. All I said was that currently if you want the big boys you usually have to put a lot of time and effort into finding them. Granted there are those who by luck just have one walk by but to continually get big deer it requires work. ARs diminish that requirement which, IMO is why most people that favor ARs, do so.

A bit touchy?

Not touchy at all. Just trying to make sure i read it right!

[bluecoupe]

Not touchy at all. Just trying to make sure i read it right!

 

Fair 'nough.  

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I understand your points and it's nothing about $, at least in my case and it's also not about size, it's about personal preferences.

Understood. I will say I have had older deer that did not taste as good but in all those cases they were taken in forested areas. I believe that their diet and care for the deer once it is harvested makes bigger taste difference than the age. The buck in my avatar was at least 3.5 and your could cut a steak with a fork. He spent his life in rye, soy and corn fields. The last one I took in the ADKS was some of the worst venison I have had for flavor. Their diet in that area was mostly mast and browse. Very liite AG in that area.

[bluecoupe]

Understood. I will say I have had older deer that did not taste as good but in all those cases they were taken in forested areas. I believe that their diet and care for the deer once it is harvested makes bigger taste difference than the age. The buck in my avatar was at least 3.5 and your could cut a steak with a fork. He spent his life in rye, soy and corn fields. The last one I took in the ADKS was some of the worst venison I have had for flavor. Their diet in that area was mostly mast and browse. Very liite AG in that area.

 

I agree. Diet has a huge affect on the meat flavor.  No way a deer who has been feeding on acorns, twigs, etc is gonna taste the same as those living around farms and eating corn, soy beans, etc.    Good point.

[burmjohn]

Points based AR cannot make any real statistical difference as long as the young deer still get targeted and shot. Unless what the AR supporters really want is a little bit older deer, but really don't care about hunting actual mature bucks.

 

Actually points based AR has made a statistical difference.  The goal of AR's was to protect the 1.5's, and its done just that.  The percentage of yearling bucks taken in AR zones is below 20% down from ~65% and age of the bucks taken in these Zones are 2.5 or greater.  

[Csk21]

So you're telling me that you can tell the difference between a 1.5 year old deer and 2.5 year old deer by taste?

I prefer younger deer as I focus on meat and the younger deer are less tough and milder in flavor. So I should be punished because some he-man wants to show how great he is by hanging a big rack on his wall? Do whats right for the deer population.

Talk about "non-breathing tones"...