The direction of deer hunting

[Arrow Flinger]

I made a post on another thread which included a paragraph from the book Bowhunting Whitetails the Eberhart Way by John & Chris Eberhart. It summed up the way they feel about the direction Whitetail hunting is going and their concerns about it. Its something I agree 100% with and is one of the reasons I cant watch a hunting show for 5 minutes without wanting to chuck my remote at the TV. A couple of guys here requested that I start a thread on it so here it is. The Eberharts wrote:

 

We are concerned with the trend toward growing and manipulating Whitetails. These magnificent animals are being degraded more and more by management practices that take much of the challenge, excitement, and mystery out of Bowhunting. Euphisms such as "extreme management" or even "harvest" are code for growing and continued privatization of animals that should never be tamed. We are hunters, which is why we kill our game, not harvest it. Grossly exaggerated hunting ease in the name of entertainment is misleading for young hunters and the non hunting public, and its dangerous for the future of Bowhunting. Don't be fooled by monster bucks crossing the screens. Mature bucks in pressured areas rarely reach those proportions, and a mature buck is a real trophy no matter the antler size. Bringing Whitetail hunting into the technological age and keeping hunting fair chase and real are big challenges facing the hunting community for decades to come. Hopefully our children and grand children will be able to experience hunting truly wild and wary Whitetails as we have.

 

Discuss

 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I made a post on another thread which included a paragraph from the book Bowhunting Whitetails the Eberhart Way by John & Chris Eberhart. It summed up the way they feel about the direction Whitetail hunting is going and their concerns about it. Its something I agree 100% with and is one of the reasons I cant watch a hunting show for 5 minutes without wanting to chuck my remote at the TV. A couple of guys here requested that I start a thread on it so here it is. The Eberharts wrote:

 

We are concerned with the trend toward growing and manipulating Whitetails. These magnificent animals are being degraded more and more by management practices that take much of the challenge, excitement, and mystery out of Bowhunting. Euphisms such as "extreme management" or even "harvest" are code for growing and continued privatization of animals that should never be tamed. We are hunters, which is why we kill our game, not harvest it. Grossly exaggerated hunting ease in the name of entertainment is misleading for young hunters and the non hunting public, and its dangerous for the future of Bowhunting. Don't be fooled by monster bucks crossing the screens. Mature bucks in pressured areas rarely reach those proportions, and a mature buck is a real trophy no matter the antler size. Bringing Whitetail hunting into the technological age and keeping hunting fair chase and real are big challenges facing the hunting community for decades to come. Hopefully our children and grand children will be able to experience hunting truly wild and wary Whitetails as we have.

 

Discuss

This could be the start of a good book. The world of hunting and whitetails have change right along with the rest of the world. You either get on the train and go or you stay behind. There used to be nothing better than you being able to walk out your door and hunt on any land you asked...Gone!    It used to be awesome to hunt our camp back on our hunting club...bought out by big money from the city....gone!

 The world is growing and the land is shrinking. It wont be to many more years and there wont be much open hunting. It will be all high fence. Outfitters or private big money clubs like some of the ones we have in Ny now.

 Lest we forget how bad our deer population in some parts of the country, let alone our state has been ruined by the very ones that were hired and trusted to protect them. In some states its the farmer and the insurance companies that make the decision on how many deer there will be in a state. Not the hunter buying the tags!

 How many states try to use cwd as a reason to try and get rid of high fence when the truth is cwd has been around for 30 plus years and year after year the record bucks are loaded with buck after buck from cwd postive states. Strange for something that we were led to believe that were going to kill all our wild herds. Its all about money. Sales of tags and the money hunters bring in.

 Its no longer about what the hunter wants and the hunters enjoyment. We could have no deer in Ny state and they still would make longer seasons and give away more tags just to get the money from the hunters that have a pocket full of tags and the thought that they can kill a pile of them.

 Alot has changed over my 40 years of hunting and alot of it has been bad and getting worse but when it comes down to where hunting is going...You better grab a club and keep your dues paid or get ready to write a check to go hunt with an outfitter for a chance at a deer or to high fence for your choice of a deer. Thats the sad truth!!!

[bubba]

I have said for a while that hunting itself will go back to the elites. And we are allowing it for the reasons stated above. No one is happy with what they have. They want bigger racks to hang in a wall. Too many hunting shows to.watch that give the false impression of real hunting. But that false impression seems to be what most want. It is not too far down the road either. I bought my own place to do so. My assessment on my property tripled and so did my taxes. It is becoming a rich sport now. I pay more in taxes for my hunting property than my home.

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[Arrow Flinger]

I'm all for shooting big bucks, and passing small ones in order to do so, but what you see on TV touted as fair chase is hardly that in my book. These guys basically raise deer like cattle. They aren't afraid of people because they never experienced a negative intereaction with people until they are 5.5 years old and then shot. They are all given names like pets, fed the best deer feed available to fatten up and grow big racks and then shot.. Its just getting ridiculous! If someone wants to start hunting and watched the outdoor channel they would expect to see a big buck behind every tree. I agree about all the land getting leased up too. Where I live, a lot of it is being leased up. I drive hours to hunt public land when theres big bucks right behind my house! Unfortunately, I don't own the land and the neighbor that does is a bowhunter. Its next to impossible to get permission on private land around here. Its either leased, owned by anti hunters or owned by someone that hunts it already. In the future, if you don't own it, you'll have to lease it and that's unfortunate.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Arrow Flinger

[nycredneck]

It has certainly changed and become a celebrity thing, everyone has to kill a monster to be a 'REAL' hunter. Whatever happened to enjoying the woods with family. And what's with all the thievery going on? When did we start stealing each others stuff? I know cameras were not around years ago but stands and stuff are not safe and I have to lock mine nowadays.

   I try not to get all gloom & doom about hunting, I like the public spots I have although getting 'em back outta there is getting a lot harder as I get older. Dragging them is a real chore.

[Jeremy K]

Just getting up every saturday during the season at 3am to pick up my dad and be 2 hours south before sunrise makes me a "real" hunter in my book, regardless if i even see a deer. I think the OP makes a very valid and true statement .

[Doc]

Hunting is moving toward the science of animal husbandry. It is becoming an agricultural enterprise where we do our best to convert a basically wild animal into some kind of hand-raised foolish species that is fed, genetically managed, and trained to make itself more accessible to what we now call hunting. We are constantly striving to eliminate as much challenge as possible from our hunting. Everything now stresses the ability to create, modify, and manipulate the animal to make them easier prey. We are moving "hunting" towards game preserve conditions whether those preserves are someone else's commercial enterprise or something that we individually create for our own use.

 

Motives, goals, methods and mentality involved in hunting has changed dramatically as we continue to evolve the activity into something that has lost the best parts of tradition and personal challenge. It is a shame because the activity that has dominated so much of my life is morphing into something that doesn't even resemble anything that I would have been remotely interested in years ago when I first got involved with hunting. I have always hunted the deer as I found them without any attempts at changing them for the convenience of my success. Personal challenge and self reliance and individual accomplishment used to be the goals. I'm not real sure just what it is all about today. It seems to be a hunter-versus-hunter competition to grow the most and best deer to shoot. I have to wonder what it will all look like 25 or 50 years from now. That's a scary thought.

[d-bone20917]

I think it is starting to come back the other way.  I have seen a lot of new hunters who have got into it just because they want the meat.  People want to know where the meat the are eating comes from and no longer trust what you get in the supermarket.  Shows like MeatEater are helping this too.  And I think it will never be just for the elites as long as we maintain access to public land for hunting.    

[growalot]

Interesting...Well many years ago looked toward the future....and didn't like what I saw...down at camp huge pieces of land were being bought up and hunting clubs with truck load after truck load of guys were coming in...and if you were unfortunate enough to have a deer take a death run over the line...permission to recover was denied...They aren't done yet for we have been approached and they are dogging the home owner we share our drive with...even though she has just 12 acres  They have hundreds and hundreds of acres now...That doesn't make all hunting clubs jerks just....ppl that looked to the future for themselves and families..and probably just as tired of some non land owning ppl..Ones that feel they are entitled to use others properties when the owners aren't there..

 

The open fields I use to watch for deer on the way to camp started filling up with houses and businesses....... So I opted to leave a Better homes and garden place we custom rebuilt and dumped lots of cash into...to buy a small reverted hunting camp on 91/2 acres...but it was in prime hunting and had lots of farm land around it...Then went to work...not on the house...but the future and laid the foundation to start buying around us...so our kids would have a place to hunt when they got older ...we now have 73 acres ..4 different parcels that conjoin ...Doesn't make me an elitist...just smart.....but angered a lot of ppl for...  "We hunted that land all our lives" attitudes arose with lots of trespassing and property damage and theft... Hey they had the same chance I did if not more to buy it..But took the future for granted....PS... theft /trespassing nothing new and I remember some nasty attitudes when I first started talking about it a few years ago here and have watched it spread..this year was a doosie for some of ya...

 

 Now I harvest animals off my lands,,,why because it is easier to get use to saying harvest instead of kill around non hunters....just like it's easier to cover or tuck away  a deer I took at camp for the ride home...doesn't make them less dead or farm raised.....just to not offend and fuel ppls negative view of hunters...Which is why I can go into a woman's clinic or Drs office or even a long check out line in say Sams club and strike up a conversation about hunting and get non hunters engaged and interested in what I say...even  to become surprised at how many admit to being hunters as well....

 

I manage my land...I do so for all the wild life...for the shear enjoyment of planting things(went to school for recreational land management)..experimenting...and physical activity...do we get big bucks growing in the area and traveling through our place...yeppers.... are the deer getting bigger and healthier ...sure enough! and my neighbors enjoyed killing them this year...See I have no illusions that these deer..... that enjoy good food and habitat on us.... don't walk around our hill and off our place into other hunted properties..for EVERYONE hunts here...Or that those big boysand older doe aren't smart enough to know when it is or isn't safe to roam..or the best places are to hide...it's how they got to be big boys/girls...not tame....Doesn't mean we don't enjoy the woods and land we have.....we're on it every day..raised two 4-H kids on it....they rode ATV...trained for dirt bike racing...built forts... raised live stock...ect ect...So Kudos to all the ppl out there that looked to the future...saved...went with out...used their vacation funds on making their own vacation/hunting spot be it 10 or 1000 acres...so they and their family and friends can enjoy a future of hunting and land management...for they aren't making more land...unless you live in the pacific Islands

 

[phade]

It is what it is. You either adapt or not.

[A Sportsman]

I think part of what makes this so alarming to us "old-school" type hunters is the speed at which things are changing. The realization that hunters (as a community) are going awry is something that only occurred to me a handful of years ago. I certainly don't remember having these fears I'm the 1990s.

The bogus shows have been around a long time, certainly longer than a handful of yrs, but for a while it seemed like what was going on on tv, wasn't gaining any traction in the "real world", or maybe our part of the country. Now forget it.

I have a 6 month old son and I find myself thinking pretty often about how things will be for him as I introduce him to it.

I intend to continue to hunt the same way I learned to. Public land, no food plots, no trail cameras, etc. While I don't necessarily expewct others to hunt as I do, I do deserve their respect. With the way things are going, I fear there will come a time when the size of the rack or the number of deer "managed"on a property completely usurps the importance of a hunters means and methods and people hunting "old school" will be looked upon as foolish. Hope I am wrong.

[genesee_mohican]

It may be going in that direction for the big land owners, but most don't own land and hunt public grounds. I do 90% of my hunting on the east side of Letchworth where deer are pressured hard, the walk is long and steep to my stands and the hunt is a challenge. I enjoy it very much and am thankful to have state land to hunt. 30 years ago I could hunt just about any farm in my area, but no more. The hunting shows are for entertainment. If they showed hours on end with no deer coming by it wouldn't be very entertaining would it?

[Doc]

It's funny, in my lifetime, I have seen hunting access go from "no problem" to a fierce struggle to get even marginal hunting land. When I was a kid, I would take off in the morning on a hike, and walk miles down the valley and never encounter a single posted sign. Nobody really bothered to get permission because none of the landowners wanted to be bothered with such trivialities. The land parcels were huge, and non agricultural lands were considered excess land open to anyone who could find a use for it. And then the family farms started to disappear with farmers breaking up the land as their version of a retirement fund. That has continued with each parcel being divided and subdivided over and over again. Little vacation homes began to fill the valley. Vacation homes turned to permanent residences as automobiles and road and road maintenance improved and made commuting to the cities more practical. Along with these new landowners came the posted signs. Favored hunting lands disappeared behind the signs. Formerly vacant state lands began to get packed with hunters that formerly were dispersed over the open private lands. Non hunting uses on those state lands have increased to a ridiculous condition.

 

Is this a trend that will ever be reversed? ..... Absolutely not! Even some of the larger hunting parcels will eventually yield to the high demand and will be sub-divided. Even some of the huge leases will eventually be subdivided and sold leaving state land as the only real viable place to hunt for the average guy. And there will become a time when that won't even be adequate to hold the additional new hunters forced off the private lands.

 

Yeah, it's not fun to be Mister doom and gloom, but how the heck can anyone really see it any different. from a strictly selfish standpoint, I can probably say that my days left probably will never see the complete demise of hunting for average people of average income. But the eventual situation is really quite clear and no real trick to predict.

[Doc]

It is what it is. You either adapt or not.

And one of the problems with that is that a lot of hunters are adapting by finding other pastimes. And that is an accelerating trend that is not likely to reverse.

 

[nyantler]

In some respects hunting has become too much about what is harvested than about the experience. The onset of QDM which was suppose to be a leg up for the whitetail in these days of diminishing habitat.. turned into a program for farming trophy bucks and in some cases unnaturally grown whitetails.. freaks in fact. Older, more traditional means of hunting are slowly being replaced by a more technical, and in my opinion, less natural ways of harvesting deer. But, that's what many of the older hunters will always be saying from generation to generation. It is nice that we can still choose the style of hunting that we enjoy most... I can still hunt with my traditional equipment and the guy that likes the newest technology can hunt that way... it is what it is... as you all know I have my opinions about different aspects of todays hunting and hunting styles... they are just opinions... the truth is that nothing about any new changes in hunting has or will affect the way I personally choose to hunt or the level of enjoyment I get from it.. those choices will always be mine... and I would hope the same for the rest of you.

 

The future of hunting will be on the next generation and their personal choice.

Edited January 2, 2014 by nyantler

[growalot]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong or missed a change out there..

 

The last I knew the only high fenced areas in NYS that deer hunting is allowed is on permitted licensed game farms/hunting preserves...I know..or at least thought I did...if I were to COMPLETELY fence in my property with 15ft high fencing the State of NY would come in and say...I don't think so...unless all the deer or other wild life are removed...Has that changed?

 When did land management or game cameras "tame" wild deer?...because I live close enough to state hunting lands and in Ag country to know the ag fed or plot fed deer that frequent  our places have sometimes been killed  a few miles away on public lands

 

Are the TV shows a beyond poor representation of what everyday real hunting is.... why of course...is it older hunters duty to let the younger hunters coming up know this...to some degree yes...sometimes they have to learn on their own....be forced to use their brains and not be spoon fed...

Edited January 2, 2014 by growalot

[Doc]

In some respects hunting has become too much about what is harvested than about the experience. The onset of QDM which was suppose to be a leg up for the whitetail in these days of diminishing habitat.. turned into a program for farming trophy bucks and in some cases unnaturally grown whitetails.. freaks in fact. Older, more traditional means of hunting are slowly being replaced by a more technical, and in my opinion, less natural ways of harvesting deer. But, that's what many of the older hunters will always be saying from generation to generation. It is nice that we can still choose the style of hunting that we enjoy most... I can still hunt with my traditional equipment and the guy that likes the newest technology can hunt that way... it is what it is... as you all know I have my opinions about different aspects of todays hunting and hunting styles... they are just opinions... the truth is that nothing about any new changes in hunting has or will affect the way I personally choose to hunt or the level of enjoyment I get from it.. those choices will always be mine... and I would hope the same for the rest of you.

One problem is that as the hunting world shrinks (hunting access), individual choices are altered. The other thing is that as the hunter densities concentrate on less and less land, the quality of the hunt begins to deteriorate. We may be able to duck and dodge some of that right now, but there is no doubt that there will come a day when we can no longer escape the inevitable.

[Doc]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong or missed a change out there..

 

The last I knew the only high fenced areas in NYS that deer hunting is allowed is on permitted licensed game farms/hunting preserves...I know..or at least thought I did...if I were to COMPLETELY fence in my property with 15ft high fencing the State of NY would come in and say...I don't think so...unless all the deer or other wild life are removed...Has that changed?

 When did land management or game cameras "tame" wild deer?...because I live close enough to state hunting lands and in Ag country to know the ag fed or plot fed deer that frequent  our places have sometimes been killed  a few miles away on public lands

 

Are the TV shows a beyond poor representation of what everyday real hunting is.... why of course...is it older hunters duty to let the younger hunters coming up know this...to some degree yes...sometimes they have to learn on their own....be forced to use their brains and not be spoon fed...

I don't think that private high fences are illegal. At least not that I have ever heard or seen that written anywhere.

 

I also don't think that these TV shows are effecting only young new-comers to hunting. I think that a lot of the AR demands are being fueled by the assumption that AR will create hunting conditions similar to what is shown on TV. Of course that is all B.S., but that does not stop a lot of people from fantasizing....lol. Yes, I believe that expectations are unreasonably elevated by these phony-baloney hunting programs and may be influential in driving management policy some day.

[growalot]

I don't think that private high fences are illegal. At least not that I have ever heard or seen that written anywhere.

 

 

I believe I have...they are NYS deer and you can not trap NYS deer or wild life for your own pleasure or use how ever you want to describe it...High fencing has to be OK'd by NYS DEC if the property high fenced contains deer....

[nyantler]

One problem is that as the hunting world shrinks (hunting access), individual choices are altered. The other thing is that as the hunter densities concentrate on less and less land, the quality of the hunt begins to deteriorate. We may be able to duck and dodge some of that right now, but there is no doubt that there will come a day when we can no longer escape the inevitable.

 

That is true depending on what one considers "quality"... in these days of hunters complaining of hunting access, not seeing enough deer, not seeing enough bucks or big bucks... etc. I personally have experienced none of it... my choice to go wherever I need to go to enjoy my hunting experience has kept me from ever experiencing a difference in the quality of my hunting experience. There are millions of acres of free huntable public land all across NYS... an YES.. less and less private land. But I have never thought that the size of the land I hunted had anything to do with the quality of my hunt. If not filling ones tags means that the quality of the hunt is lessened then I suppose there will be hunters that feel that way in the future... hunting in the future will be what the hunter makes it... individual choices may be altered but do not have to be lessened and neither does the quality of ones hunt.

[nyantler]

I should say Doc that I do understand your point and it may be true... I just believe it doesn't have to be true

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong or missed a change out there..

 

The last I knew the only high fenced areas in NYS that deer hunting is allowed is on permitted licensed game farms/hunting preserves...I know..or at least thought I did...if I were to COMPLETELY fence in my property with 15ft high fencing the State of NY would come in and say...I don't think so...unless all the deer or other wild life are removed...Has that changed?

 When did land management or game cameras "tame" wild deer?...because I live close enough to state hunting lands and in Ag country to know the ag fed or plot fed deer that frequent  our places have sometimes been killed  a few miles away on public lands

 

Are the TV shows a beyond poor representation of what everyday real hunting is.... why of course...is it older hunters duty to let the younger hunters coming up know this...to some degree yes...sometimes they have to learn on their own....be forced to use their brains and not be spoon fed...

Yes the state wants all the wild deer ran out before the last gate goes up. You would be shocked how many property owners have fenced in their 200-500 acres for their own private hunt. Sick of having no deer on their lands. Sick of the orange army running all around their land and the list goes on. The times have changed and will continue to change for many.

 Fast paced world we live in and many,many,many would rather drop a few grand and go get their buck rather than spend big money on land,food plots and the likes. Say 3 grand a year they spend on a yearly hunt rather than the thousands it would cost to have their own property.  Im sure the ones that choose to pay for hunts every year could give you a list as to why they do. This is a big,big world and we here are just a dot. There is so much big money involved in whitetails now. In the end we are at fault and there is no going back now.  The young smart person will see this now and act accordingly for their and their families future. 

 The bus is leaving!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It may be going in that direction for the big land owners, but most don't own land and hunt public grounds. I do 90% of my hunting on the east side of Letchworth where deer are pressured hard, the walk is long and steep to my stands and the hunt is a challenge. I enjoy it very much and am thankful to have state land to hunt. 30 years ago I could hunt just about any farm in my area, but no more. The hunting shows are for entertainment. If they showed hours on end with no deer coming by it wouldn't be very entertaining would it?

Glad there are still a few of us that will do whatever it takes to get a good hunt/buck. Problem is, The longer the private land gets ate up the more people will be in our honey hole. The park itself has turned into a cash cow with whitetails. The cabin prices have doubled in the last few years because they can sell them and make cash. The numbers of cabins will be added in due time because the state can make money on them. A short 2-3 years ago a guy could get a cabin for the first few days of shotgun. Now because of lottery system a guy has to rent a cabin for 2 weeks just to be sure to get on for shotgun. Well thats a grand right there and there are what 60 cabins on the park. Its alot about the greenbacks in the end. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

I dont agree with the deer farm high fence theory. You may see some guys do it, but it will not become the norm. I think you will see the general public lash back at it once it gets to a certain point. It will always be a niche market.

 

What I do agree with is the leasing issue. Finding good land to hunt is not easy, and keeping it is even harder. I spend alot of time maintaining the relationships with the landowner, farm manager, hunting buddies, etc in order to have access to the land that I hunt. Im not saying thats a bad thing, because I really enjoy spending time with them, but the days of gaining simple permission without the outlay of cash, time, etc are long gone. For me, its ok, but not everyone can afford the time or money to have access to land for an activity they participate in a few weekends a year.

[phade]

And one of the problems with that is that a lot of hunters are adapting by finding other pastimes. And that is an accelerating trend that is not likely to reverse.

 

We've went down this road before, but hunter numbers are going up for the most part. It has not been accelerating by any means if the number is stagnant or marginally increasing from a big picture perspective.

 

I agree in most of what you say that eventually the sport will "consume" itself. I agree that it is still a bit off, but the foundation is being set now for that path. Every generation complains about the new one. Every one of them. I'll do the same when I am old and crotchety like you, lol.

 

I worry about it now, but as I age, I get less and less concerned. There's not much we can do to stop it as it is nothing more than the evolution of the sport. Many passions go this way and to think hunting can buck that trend is peeing in the wind.

 

So, there's TV, QDM, antler fever, etc. Nothing you can do about it, except preserve your capabilities to hunt in the manner you want or for your friend/family/future family lineage. It's not pretty, but it is what it is, and the sooner people realize it, and stop worrying about the "whole" of the hunting community, the better off they'll be. Or, you get out of the sport.