Where do we stand with crossbows

[moog5050]

I've stated this a few times before, but here it goes again. Do you really think hunter numbers will increase because of the crossbow? And what I mean, is that do you think NEW hunters will join in a significant amount because the crossbow is legal. Or do you think the majority of crossbow hunters will be compound converts or already gun hunters?

 

Also, I've posted before, but if you check NYS archery tag sales, they've been increases for at least the last 5 years. So what does the crossbow solve in terms of NEW hunters?

 

 

I don't think crossbows will likely increase total hunter numbers.  I think you will see many more gun hunters in the woods during archery season with a crossbow.  That said, if I try to remove my selfish preference for having less hunters in the woods during bow, I don't think a cross bow adds much of an advantage over compound from a technology perspective.  I agree with WNYBH, you still need to hunt those deer with a crossbow just like with a bow as the effective range is the same.  The biggest skill is getting yourself in position.   Heck, I am no super archer, but could kill a deer first year out with the bow, if I saw one.  Putting yourself in position under the right circumstances takes much more time to learn than shooting the deer, in my opinion.

 

I do worry a bit about the casual gun hunters that dont take it seriously thinking they should do the same thing with a crossbow.  You do need a better shot with an arrow or bolt to kill that deer humanely than with a gun.

[Five Seasons]

when your a superman the time will never come when you will need a crossbow to stay in the game. everyone else can just sit out. 

 

and for the elderly and disabled it should be legal. A much simpler, easier method to obtain a permit would be my recommendation.

[Five Seasons]

Lighten up Mike, it was a harmless freakin' joke!

I'm sure most guys got it.

Sorry you didn't.

Good grief...

 

I think his point was... that on the net it's hard to tell a joke when you don't add a winky face or a "lol". So some (wnybuck included) may have taken it as truth. I'm not going to get all riled up about it, but there are quite of few people that form an opinion on various topics based off misinformation. I can see someone talking with some buddies after reading that and repeating it as truth.

 

How many Obama supporters voted for him based on healthcare and foreign affair lies? Same concept on a much smaller level.

[Five Seasons]

According to an interview that Ottie Snyder ( representative for the HORTON COMPANY ) gave a few years ago . They expect it will draw youngsters , women and Men who don't have time to practice into the crossbow fold and increase the hunting numbers significantly .

 

would those same woman and youth not already gun hunt though?

[wooly]

I think his point was... that on the net it's hard to tell a joke when you don't add a winky face or a "lol". So some (wnybuck included) may have taken it as truth. I'm not going to get all riled up about it, but there are quite of few people that form an opinion on various topics based off misinformation. I can see someone talking with some buddies after reading that and repeating it as truth.

Then I guess this is more serious offence than I originally thought.

Looks like I'll see you all on the playground after class.

Don't forget to bring me your lunch money,lol  <<<<<< is that better!^^^

[WNYBuckHunter]

Why not for youth, or women that dont have the strength to draw a bow at the state minimum weight? How disabled would one need to be? What about guys with temporary injuries? You could go on and on with special designations if you want to.

 

You can fear monger and theorize till youre blue in the face, but if you talk to guys that actually hunt with crossbows, youll quickly find out that the effective range is right in the same ball park as a compound. Heck, weve had some recent discussions about guys on here that shoot deer well past 40 yards with their compounds. I have yet to hear about the sky falling in states that allow crossbows.

 

Do I think xbows will bring a ton of new hunters into the sport? No. Do I think it will bring some? Yes I do. Do I think there will be some people with unrealistic expectations and poor hunting techniques? Sure, but there are bad apples in the bow hunting world now. I say give those bad apples a weapon they may have a better chance at getting off a good, ethical kill shot with instead of hucking arrows and wounding deer.

[Doc]

I have had several opportunities to brace my arm on the tree I am in while shooting a compound too. it certainly helps. This was brought up as an illustration that the crossbow isn't some magic machine that will cure all the ills and that it is capable of so much more than a compound. The competition certainly is a very controlled environment but I don't think the point was ridiculous.

I don't know, perhaps the crossbows are allowed to use bracing equipment in competition. I shouldn't even be saying because I have never even heard of crossbows being used in organized target competition prior to this thread. Perhaps they are allowed to bench rest them, or shoot in a prone position, or whatever. I suspect that is not the case, but will not say for sure. Maybe, nobody here really knows for sure. But when comparing weapons for whatever reason, I would assume that when you are talking about hunting situations you would argue using hunting conditions. I mean, if you are going to talk about sand-bagged, bench rested conditions, I think it would be foolish to think that using shooters of average ability, compound could out-shoot a crossbow. But that's not what we are talking about is it? Likewise we are not talking about target range conditions. We are talking about hunting using potential and probable field conditions. So I really don't understand the relevance of competition scores. And yes, I still think the introduction of competition scores is ridiculous and irrelevant. 

 

As far as bracing your arm against a tree, I don't doubt that it might be able to be done. It's probably not something I would attempt to do, but I suppose anything is possible.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I don't know, perhaps the crossbows are allowed to use bracing equipment in competition. I shouldn't even be saying because I have never even heard of crossbows being used in organized target competition prior to this thread. Perhaps they are allowed to bench rest them, or shoot in a prone position, or whatever. I suspect that is not the case, but will not say for sure. Maybe, nobody here really knows for sure. But when comparing weapons for whatever reason, I would assume that when you are talking about hunting situations you would argue using hunting conditions. I mean, if you are going to talk about sand-bagged, bench rested conditions, I think it would be foolish to think that using shooters of average ability, compound could out-shoot a crossbow. But that's not what we are talking about is it? Likewise we are not talking about target range conditions. We are talking about hunting using potential and probable field conditions. So I really don't understand the relevance of competition scores. And yes, I still think the introduction of competition scores is ridiculous and irrelevant. 

 

As far as bracing your arm against a tree, I don't doubt that it might be able to be done. It's probably not something I would attempt to do, but I suppose anything is possible.

 

I posted a link to the IBO rule book. It tells you how they can shoot them right in there. No guessing to it really.

[Doc]

I say give those bad apples a weapon they may have a better chance at getting off a good, ethical kill shot with instead of hucking arrows and wounding deer.

Ha-ha .... I've heard a lot of gun hunters say the same thing. Only they're not talking about "bad apples". They're talking about the whole idea of using arrows to kill deer. The bow season is one that purposely and deliberately increases challenge through equipment handicap. Now, either we believe in that or we don't. And if we don't then let's go with the most efficient form of weapon .... the gun.

[Doc]

I posted a link to the IBO rule book. It tells you how they can shoot them right in there. No guessing to it really.

Well, frankly I don't even have enough interest to go and look. As I explained in great length, we are not talking about target range competition. It is completely irrelevant.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well, frankly I don't even have enough interest to go and look. As I explained in great length, we are not talking about target range competition. It is completely irrelevant.

 

I was just saying that the information has been provided, no reason to assume or guess at anything. Please though, blow my statement out of proportion and turn it into a 13 page argument lol. We can always use more hits on the site.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ha-ha .... I've heard a lot of gun hunters say the same thing. Only they're not talking about "bad apples". They're talking about the whole idea of using arrows to kill deer. The bow season is one that purposely and deliberately increases challenge through equipment handicap. Now, either we believe in that or we don't. And if we don't then let's go with the most efficient form of weapon .... the gun.

 

Now you are taking something and making it into something completely out of the realm of what was intended. At no point have I ever suggested allowing guns into archery season (dont include the youth season, different conversation completely). Ive actually made statements about keeping archery and gun seasons separate, while others have insinuated to just make it into a whatever weapon you choose free for all.

 

Weve had this very same discussion previously. Your leap from archery equipment to guns is just as much of a silly argument now as its ever been.

 

[Doc]

Now you are taking something and making it into something completely out of the realm of what was intended. At no point have I ever suggested allowing guns into archery season (dont include the youth season, different conversation completely). Ive actually made statements about keeping archery and gun seasons separate, while others have insinuated to just make it into a whatever weapon you choose free for all.

 

Weve had this very same discussion previously. Your leap from archery equipment to guns is just as much of a silly argument now as its ever been.

 

It doesn't matter what your intent is. I'm just telling you that this exact same line of reasoning (or lack thereof) is used in exactly the same way by a lot of people who would just as soon there were no such thing as a bow season at all. It makes no sense to keep handing people incapable people more and more efficient weapons in what is supposed to be a weapons-challenged season unless you are willing to take it completely to it's logical conclusion. You can use a lot of justifications for crossbows, but I really do disagree that it should serve as a weapon to make up for archer's shortfalls. There just is no stopping that mindset once to accept it.

[Doc]

I was just saying that the information has been provided, no reason to assume or guess at anything. Please though, blow my statement out of proportion and turn it into a 13 page argument lol. We can always use more hits on the site.

I really don't care. It is irrelevant.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't know, perhaps the crossbows are allowed to use bracing equipment in competition. I shouldn't even be saying because I have never even heard of crossbows being used in organized target competition prior to this thread. Perhaps they are allowed to bench rest them, or shoot in a prone position, or whatever. I suspect that is not the case, but will not say for sure. Maybe, nobody here really knows for sure. But when comparing weapons for whatever reason, I would assume that when you are talking about hunting situations you would argue using hunting conditions. I mean, if you are going to talk about sand-bagged, bench rested conditions, I think it would be foolish to think that using shooters of average ability, compound could out-shoot a crossbow. But that's not what we are talking about is it? Likewise we are not talking about target range conditions. We are talking about hunting using potential and probable field conditions. So I really don't understand the relevance of competition scores. And yes, I still think the introduction of competition scores is ridiculous and irrelevant. 

 

As far as bracing your arm against a tree, I don't doubt that it might be able to be done. It's probably not something I would attempt to do, but I suppose anything is possible.

WNY posted the rules for IBO. must be free hand. now bipods, shooting stick etc. If I am not mistaken I think some of the IBO events are on 3D targets to simulate hunting conditions. Obviously not a 100% representation but we do it to practice for hunting so probably to closest correlation that could be made without have legions of statisticians following both styles hunters around to collect and interpret data. Doc you have seen the threads. The claims of how much more accurate the weapon is. how using it gives such an unfair advantage. The claims of the huge range capabilities and advantages over a compound. This is a demonstration that, while it isn't hunting, it is the same conditions and distances for both classes and the results give the nod to the compound.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Didnt you hear him Culver, its irrelevant

[Culvercreek hunt club]

All IBO competitive events are based on a "free-hand" style of shooting. No archer shall use any device such as shooting sticks, slings or other such accessories or shooting positions to create a "braced" shot. The only exceptions will be in the PCBH class where the use of such devices is required for continued participation.

 

 

 

yeah....I not listen so good

[Doc]

WNY posted the rules for IBO. must be free hand. now bipods, shooting stick etc. If I am not mistaken I think some of the IBO events are on 3D targets to simulate hunting conditions. Obviously not a 100% representation but we do it to practice for hunting so probably to closest correlation that could be made without have legions of statisticians following both styles hunters around to collect and interpret data. Doc you have seen the threads. The claims of how much more accurate the weapon is. how using it gives such an unfair advantage. The claims of the huge range capabilities and advantages over a compound. This is a demonstration that, while it isn't hunting, it is the same conditions and distances for both classes and the results give the nod to the compound.

And I am saying that you cannot take one of the two weapons and strip it of all of the advantages that it has and then make some kind of hunting comparison where those things are put back on. I understand that the truth is widely stretched on both sides, but making bogus comparisons are not the way to combat that.

 

Let that crossbow shooter go into a prone position with a bipod, or bench rest his crossbow on a log, and you will begin to have a look at the crossbow advantage. Let the compound shooter use some sort of draw lock so that neither of them has to draw the string in the presence of the deer. Anything short of that is simply an irrelevant comparison that is just as much biased and comprised of manufactured claims as any that are being made on either side of the argument.

[WNYBuckHunter]

It doesn't matter what your intent is. I'm just telling you that this exact same line of reasoning (or lack thereof) is used in exactly the same way by a lot of people who would just as soon there were no such thing as a bow season at all. It makes no sense to keep handing people incapable people more and more efficient weapons in what is supposed to be a weapons-challenged season unless you are willing to take it completely to it's logical conclusion. You can use a lot of justifications for crossbows, but I really do disagree that it should serve as a weapon to make up for archer's shortfalls. There just is no stopping that mindset once to accept it.

 

Sure there is, you leave it at ARCHERY (aka killing with a string propelled arrow with a broadhead on the end of it) season, not free for all season lol. Even with a crossbow (as Ive said many times before) you still are challenged by the range of the weapon. You have to get in close to use one, just like a vertical bow.

 

Do you agree that we see and hear about too many instances of deer shot by bows with arrows in their heads, necks, backs, etc? Also hunters telling stories about making bad shots, wounding deer, etc etc? It probably wouldnt take long to find 10 of those types of threads on here. Id be willing to put money down that many of those stories begin with someone out in the bow woods that hasnt put the necessary practice time in before hand, but they are out there anyway. Would you rather them:

 

A) Keep taking bad shots and wounding deer, with the possible effect of putting bow hunters in a bad light

B ) Quit bow hunting all together and have less numbers amongst our ranks

C) Put a piece of archery equipment in their hands that gives them a better chance at a clean kill with their limited (for whatever reason) practice regimond

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And I am saying that you cannot take one of the two weapons and strip it of all of the advantages that it has and then make some kind of hunting comparison where those things are put back on. I understand that the truth is widely stretched on both sides, but making bogus comparisons are not the way to combat that.

Let that crossbow shooter go into a prone position with a bipod, or bench rest his crossbow on a log, and you will begin to have a look at the crossbow advantage. Let the compound shooter use some sort of draw lock so that neither of them has to draw the string in the presence of the deer. Anything short of that is simply an irrelevant comparison that is just as much biased and comprised of manufactured claims as any that are being made on either side of the argument.

I understand what you are saying. I have an honest question though Doc. The same advantages you list for the crossbow could be used for a rifle or shotgun. Right? Bipod. Prone. How many deer have you shot with a gun from those positions. Out of all the deer you have taken. For me it is 1.

[Doc]

Sure there is, you leave it at ARCHERY (aka killing with a string propelled arrow with a broadhead on the end of it) season, not free for all season lol. Even with a crossbow (as Ive said many times before) you still are challenged by the range of the weapon. You have to get in close to use one, just like a vertical bow.

 

Do you agree that we see and hear about too many instances of deer shot by bows with arrows in their heads, necks, backs, etc? Also hunters telling stories about making bad shots, wounding deer, etc etc? It probably wouldnt take long to find 10 of those types of threads on here. Id be willing to put money down that many of those stories begin with someone out in the bow woods that hasnt put the necessary practice time in before hand, but they are out there anyway. Would you rather them:

 

A) Keep taking bad shots and wounding deer, with the possible effect of putting bow hunters in a bad light

Quit bow hunting all together and have less numbers amongst our ranks

C) Put a piece of archery equipment in their hands that gives them a better chance at a clean kill with their limited (for whatever reason) practice regimond

I am saying exactly what I said before. Once you start adopting and promoting the arguments of the anti bow-hunters, there is no stopping that line of reasoning. If we were the ones writing the laws and could guarantee that a line was really going to be drawn then maybe we could successfully play that tune, but the fact is that we can't all of a sudden say, "That's far enough". We do not have that power. So you coming up with a wish-list of stopping points ands rules is wasted effort. When you start down that path of saying that there are shortfalls in the archery equipment and the people who use it, you have stepped out on a slippery slope that you or I or anybody in archery can control.

[Doc]

I understand what you are saying. I have an honest question though Doc. The same advantages you list for the crossbow could be used for a rifle or shotgun. Right? Bipod. Prone. How many deer have you shot with a gun from those positions. Out of all the deer you have taken. For me it is 1.

I am maybe the world's worst off-hand shooter. I would say that 90% of my shots are bench rested when stand shooting. My gun stands are built with shooting rests in mind. For still-hunting, I carry shooting stix. It is a huge benefit, and I mean HUGE, to be able to steady rest on something.

[Sogaard]

They could always come to some sort of compromise:

 

Bow season is about 6 weeks long now.  Let it be vertical only for the first 3 or 4 weeks, then open it up to x-bows for the rest of the seasons.  Both sides should hate that idea, which is usually a good litmus test for something fair.  

[ncountry]

They could always come to some sort of compromise:

 

Bow season is about 6 weeks long now.  Let it be vertical only for the first 3 or 4 weeks, then open it up to x-bows for the rest of the seasons.  Both sides should hate that idea, which is usually a good litmus test for something fair.  

 

Love this idea. It seems to get shot down by the pro xbow guys every time.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am maybe the world's worst off-hand shooter. I would say that 90% of my shots are bench rested when stand shooting. My gun stands are built with shooting rests in mind. For still-hunting, I carry shooting stix. It is a huge benefit, and I mean HUGE, to be able to steady rest on something.

Fair enough. I would bet though that the majority of deer taken are off hand.