QDM Meeting with Neighbors

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree to a point but if the landowners that are in the middle of all these coming 2 years olds like to shoot any legal buck they see it will be a tough go of it. if the landowner in the middle has the better food and draw for the deer they will kill alot of those deer before they see their second birthday. .

Could be, but there is also a side effect possibility. Seeing more of the better bucks can start to alter their opinions and tendency to pull the trigger on the 1.5.

[dbHunterNY]

Landowners agreeing on 3.5 and up is rare here in NY. If you can do it, then that's a big deal.

 

Problem is most hunters in NY don't have 3.5s and many don't have 2.5s on the wall. Might be best to think about setting 2.5 across the board for now and then move to 3.5 as people buy in a year or two down the road. Small steps = big victory.

 

this seemed very important and brought up .... one big reason many co-ops fail was having goals too high.  I do think a hard goal of 3.5+ isn't possible.  almost all wouldn't have the education to judge 2.5 versus 3.5 at this point or the near future.  think more like half or slightly more of the 2.5 yr olds would be fair game, based on a antler point restriction to start off or maybe even both antler and spread.  we were also told that you need to really give it 3-5 years to see your small step goals come to fruition.  education will continue and follow.  then I imagine we'd go from there with an emphasis on age.

 

 

I agree to a point but if the landowners that are in the middle of all these coming 2 years olds like to shoot any legal buck they see it will be a tough go of it. if the landowner in the middle has the better food and draw for the deer they will kill alot of those deer before they see their second birthday. Now if this land in all wrapped up in an AR area then there is a much better chance of success.

 

there are no AR mandated by DEC here currently.  however, multiple already do loosely practice voluntary ARs.  for example our property does 3 points to a side currently.  once we get into it co-op landowners will have resources and knowledge to improve their habitat.  some honey holes are just that and always will be but one of the first things we were told is to drop any negative mentality of worrying about what one of the neighbors will do that isn't participating.  we were actually told that if we had set thoughts of "if I don't shoot it someone else will" then the door was behind us and we might as well use it.  continued inclusion of that landowner and he/her seeing results usually changes them. 

 

How so? How often have you seen a 2 1/2 year old that didnt have 3 points on one side? Mandatory ARs are going to do little to nothing to help that type of a situation.

 

over the course of a decade of voluntary ARs I agree 3 points to a side hasn't protected many 2.5 year olds and even some 1.5 yr olds.  for ARs 4 points to a side or 3 points with a spread restriction would protect many 2.5 year olds but not all.  based on feedback (not always good) I think it'd be easier to have 3 pts and spread then 4 pts to a side.  for some reason 4 pts to a side minimum makes others think of a giant 8 pointer and a bigger.

 

Could be, but there is also a side effect possibility. Seeing more of the better bucks can start to alter their opinions and tendency to pull the trigger on the 1.5.

 

absolutely.  once bigger bucks are spotted and people are vested in this co-op 1.5 year olds will be free to roam, especially when they know everyone doesn't have those intentions.

 

 

it was brought up that mistakes will be made.  if someone breaks a rule once they aren't shown the door but expected not to do it again.  someone who breaks the rules a few times should probably be handled or asked to leave.  one interesting mistake was made and brought up by a local co-op.  when trying to fill DMAPS many waited and waited throughout the season.  this was thought to lead to them shooting about 6 button bucks out of the 100 or so DMAPS filled.  this wasn't there intention at all.  they thought being under a time crunch, pressure from the season, and other factors led to that result.  their focus this year was going to be how to prevent mistaking button bucks for doe to fill DMAPS.  I'm sure many of us can relate to this even if we haven't shot a button buck.  One practice I use to help not shoot one late in the season is to not shoot what I think is a doe that's all by herself.  when a button buck is with other deer you can usually see a size difference.

[dbHunterNY]

another thing is a goal of harvesting 30-35% of our doe population to maintain deer herd size is going to be difficult.  hunter mentality that hasn't accepted killing a doe yet, getting DMAPS, and filling them before does smarten up and make things harder all I'm sure adds to the difficulty.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

another thing is a goal of harvesting 30-35% of our doe population to maintain deer herd size is going to be difficult.  hunter mentality that hasn't accepted killing a doe yet, getting DMAPS, and filling them before does smarten up and make things harder all I'm sure adds to the difficulty.

Are you talking DMAPs o or DMP's?

[phade]

this seemed very important and brought up .... one big reason many co-ops fail was having goals too high.  I do think a hard goal of 3.5+ isn't possible.  almost all wouldn't have the education to judge 2.5 versus 3.5 at this point or the near future.  think more like half or slightly more of the 2.5 yr olds would be fair game, based on a antler point restriction to start off or maybe even both antler and spread.  we were also told that you need to really give it 3-5 years to see your small step goals come to fruition.  education will continue and follow.  then I imagine we'd go from there with an emphasis on age.

 

 

 

there are no AR mandated by DEC here currently.  however, multiple already do loosely practice voluntary ARs.  for example our property does 3 points to a side currently.  once we get into it co-op landowners will have resources and knowledge to improve their habitat.  some honey holes are just that and always will be but one of the first things we were told is to drop any negative mentality of worrying about what one of the neighbors will do that isn't participating.  we were actually told that if we had set thoughts of "if I don't shoot it someone else will" then the door was behind us and we might as well use it.  continued inclusion of that landowner and he/her seeing results usually changes them. 

 

 

over the course of a decade of voluntary ARs I agree 3 points to a side hasn't protected many 2.5 year olds and even some 1.5 yr olds.  for ARs 4 points to a side or 3 points with a spread restriction would protect many 2.5 year olds but not all.  based on feedback (not always good) I think it'd be easier to have 3 pts and spread then 4 pts to a side.  for some reason 4 pts to a side minimum makes others think of a giant 8 pointer and a bigger.

 

 

absolutely.  once bigger bucks are spotted and people are vested in this co-op 1.5 year olds will be free to roam, especially when they know everyone doesn't have those intentions.

 

 

it was brought up that mistakes will be made.  if someone breaks a rule once they aren't shown the door but expected not to do it again.  someone who breaks the rules a few times should probably be handled or asked to leave.  one interesting mistake was made and brought up by a local co-op.  when trying to fill DMAPS many waited and waited throughout the season.  this was thought to lead to them shooting about 6 button bucks out of the 100 or so DMAPS filled.  this wasn't there intention at all.  they thought being under a time crunch, pressure from the season, and other factors led to that result.  their focus this year was going to be how to prevent mistaking button bucks for doe to fill DMAPS.  I'm sure many of us can relate to this even if we haven't shot a button buck.  One practice I use to help not shoot one late in the season is to not shoot what I think is a doe that's all by herself.  when a button buck is with other deer you can usually see a size difference.

 

Therein lies the problem. What are you going to do? Kick them off their own land? Unless you try to tie together them somehow in a financially binding manner - which most people won't do - there's no hammer behind the rules.

 

If 6 BB were shot out of a 100 DMAPS, that group is doing things right. That's freaking 6% rate for pete's sake.

[WNYBuckHunter]

 

over the course of a decade of voluntary ARs I agree 3 points to a side hasn't protected many 2.5 year olds and even some 1.5 yr olds.  for ARs 4 points to a side or 3 points with a spread restriction would protect many 2.5 year olds but not all.  based on feedback (not always good) I think it'd be easier to have 3 pts and spread then 4 pts to a side.  for some reason 4 pts to a side minimum makes others think of a giant 8 pointer and a bigger.

 

 

I have seen some really big, mature 6's, so I would be opposed to 4 on a side. I have also seen some very tight mature bucks, that never have a spread outside the ears, so I am opposed to that as well. These are some of the reasons I do not agree with mandatory ARs at all. In a QDM environment, the participants should learn how to age deer by looking at body features, not rack size, after all, the real goal of QDM is to harvest mature deer.

[Nomad]

Ok for years we have been doing an informal mature bucks only. However the land owners and hunters land covers a few miles north and south and 2 roads with spill over east and west. We don't have any spread or points minimum mature bucks only,,almost had a mandatory you shoot it you mount it rule though.......

Young and new hunters can shoot what the want and I'm sure others around do as well,even so we have seen quite a turn around in buck size. Many hold out for 4 1/2 and over, and several are taken each year.

Growing them is the easy part keeping them around and calm is the hard part.

You need to change how guys hunt. We don't allow,drives,pushes,stalking,still hunting,no walking around,park your atv at the barn.watch the wind,slip in slip out.

Also we have parts off limits at all times.

Some guys have once a year stands that are only used well once a year, when the wind is perfect and the timing is Correct for that set up. This could be a bedding area a few days into gun season . The pressure( such that it is) keeps the big guy in his core bedding area and since nobody has set foot in there even once he feels safe there. It takes discipline but the pay off can be great.

I know guys who don't enter the core area in the dark " before the buck" because a mature buck will not enter without scent checking it. They move in slow and quite a couple hours after light and he is bedded down.March is the time to cut the trail and hang the stand, don't come back till that one day in the season.

Is 1,000 acres enough? I have no idea I think it may be if you can keep them around ,once others see the improvement the idea should spread.

Our ag land is plowed right after harvest and that changes patterns for us, some guys do food plots to keep them around.

Give them cover,food and little pressure . Good luck.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Larry302

[dbHunterNY]

Are you talking DMAPs o or DMP's?

 

you can try to get what DMPs you can too but.... 

 

the co-op as a whole sends in an application for DMAPS.  whoever within the co-op is tasked with the work would then distribute them throughout the landowners based on acreage and number of hunters.  each hunter can only legal fill two DMAPs they said.

[dbHunterNY]

Therein lies the problem. What are you going to do? Kick them off their own land? Unless you try to tie together them somehow in a financially binding manner - which most people won't do - there's no hammer behind the rules.

 

If 6 BB were shot out of a 100 DMAPS, that group is doing things right. That's freaking 6% rate for pete's sake.

 

well I said that in the text that it'd be a hunter and not the landowner.  they said contractual agreements can be made but sometimes kill deals before they begin.  many will stand by their word and a hand shake over the fence but would be out as soon as a contract was in place.  it's a case by case deal I think and will only be apparent when we start to form it.

 

mistake shooting the 6 button bucks were their words actually.  they seemed very serious and passionate about what they were doing which is why I think those co-ops have been so successful the past 4+ years. 

[dbHunterNY]

Ok for years we have been doing an informal mature bucks only. However the land owners and hunters land covers a few miles north and south and 2 roads with spill over east and west. We don't have any spread or points minimum mature bucks only,,almost had a mandatory you shoot it you mount it rule though.......

Young and new hunters can shoot what the want and I'm sure others around do as well,even so we have seen quite a turn around in buck size. Many hold out for 4 1/2 and over, and several are taken each year.

Growing them is the easy part keeping them around and calm is the hard part.

You need to change how guys hunt. We don't allow,drives,pushes,stalking,still hunting,no walking around,park your atv at the barn.watch the wind,slip in slip out.

Also we have parts off limits at all times.

Some guys have once a year stands that are only used well once a year, when the wind is perfect and the timing is Correct for that set up. This could be a bedding area a few days into gun season . The pressure( such that it is) keeps the big guy in his core bedding area and since nobody has set foot in there even once he feels safe there. It takes discipline but the pay off can be great.

I know guys who don't enter the core area in the dark " before the buck" because a mature buck will not enter without scent checking it. They move in slow and quite a couple hours after light and he is bedded down.March is the time to cut the trail and hang the stand, don't come back till that one day in the season.

Is 1,000 acres enough? I have no idea I think it may be if you can keep them around ,once others see the improvement the idea should spread.

Our ag land is plowed right after harvest and that changes patterns for us, some guys do food plots to keep them around.

Give them cover,food and little pressure . Good luck.

 

I could make suggestions based on what I think but hunting tactics are left up to the landowners and hunters on their property.  driving an atv around would be frowned upon as well as drives/pushes/nudges.  I hear you with regarding hunting smart to kill mature deer but outside of negatively directly affecting other hunters I don't think I'm going to tell others how to do what.  success and failure would lend them to taking your advise into consideration, especially if everyone else around them killed deer.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

you can try to get what DMPs you can too but....

the co-op as a whole sends in an application for DMAPS. whoever within the co-op is tasked with the work would then distribute them throughout the landowners based on acreage and number of hunters. each hunter can only legal fill two DMAPs they said.

Are these farmers in the co-op? I didn't thing DMAPS were given out without a demonstrated need. DMAPS are nuisance tags for in season. I also thought they were issues for a specific piece of property.

[Nomad]

I believe you'er right . The farm I hunt gets them,for use on that farm only,based on acreage and damage as far as I know.

Between bow gun all the tags I get now using 2 damps would be a stretch for me,two deer for my family and perhaps one or two to give away at most. We use the dmaps first though,the thought being use em or lose em.

[dbHunterNY]

Are these farmers in the co-op? I didn't thing DMAPS were given out without a demonstrated need. DMAPS are nuisance tags for in season. I also thought they were issues for a specific piece of property.

 

yes most of the land owners are farmers not all of them hunt either but have people who hunt their property.  in my mind there's a justified need.  I mean if you have to shoot 25-35% to keep the herd from growing then you need them.  if the herd continues to grow it's more food they're consuming.  if the herd grows just 10 doe, and each doe eats 5 lbs/day, that's just over 9 more TON of forage.  most aren't heavily into TSI so the deer eat crops if little browse is in the woods.  around here the woods are slightly mature but very bare, showing that there's too many deer.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

How so? How often have you seen a 2 1/2 year old that didnt have 3 points on one side? Mandatory ARs are going to do little to nothing to help that type of a situation.

Pretty simple. Give the area an AR law and the people not involved in the qdm program cant shoot the spikes and other little guys before their second birthday. More yearlings saved = more two year olds for the qdm members.

[SteveB]

Never understood making others pass 1.5 so one could shoot them at 2.5.

Not and claim it is because you want to shoot "mature" deer.

Edited March 22, 2014 by SteveB

[dbHunterNY]

I have seen some really big, mature 6's, so I would be opposed to 4 on a side. I have also seen some very tight mature bucks, that never have a spread outside the ears, so I am opposed to that as well. These are some of the reasons I do not agree with mandatory ARs at all. In a QDM environment, the participants should learn how to age deer by looking at body features, not rack size, after all, the real goal of QDM is to harvest mature deer.

 

I'm sure we would get that problem.  you've got to start somewhere though and the learning curve is much quicker with ARs then aging deer.  The biologist said he's had countless deer shown to him that were mature bucks when in fact they were 1.5 or 2.5 years old.  I don't think it's too hard to judge age on the hoof, but it's asking a lot in the beginning I feel.  with the overall goal in mind I see no reason a buck like that couldn't be discussed with other members of the co-op and determined to be an exception (before it's taken, as to not stir the pot of course).

[nyantler]

The real goal of QDM is NOT to harvest mature bucks... real QDM has little to do with bucks at all... it just so happens that bigger bucks is a fortunate by-product of a good deer management program...the real goal is optimum herd health given the habitat available. Like I have always said... this has been the bane of the real Quality Deer Management concept... concentrating more on what it does for the bucks than what it is doing for the herd. I still believe QDM has become something it never was intended to be and I am not a fan... and that is coming from a person that helped begin the movement in NY almost 25 years ago.

[orion]

"I don't think it's too hard to judge age on the hoof, but it's asking a lot in the beginning I feel."

 

This isn't as easy as you think. I have watched shows where experts aged deer and they are looking at pictures trying to decide if they are 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 yr olds They don't necessarily agree and its all a guess.Try doing this at 75 yards with that buck trailing a doe through the woods.

 

Also I wish some of these QDMA people would start talking deer density and habitat as nyantler mentioned. Seems to be a topic they wish to avoid.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

The real goal of QDM is NOT to harvest mature bucks... real QDM has little to do with bucks at all... it just so happens that bigger bucks is a fortunate by-product of a good deer management program...the real goal is optimum herd health given the habitat available. Like I have always said... this has been the bane of the real Quality Deer Management concept... concentrating more on what it does for the bucks than what it is doing for the herd. I still believe QDM has become something it never was intended to be and I am not a fan... and that is coming from a person that helped begin the movement in NY almost 25 years ago.

This was kind of my point in another post. QDM is just TDM for most.  It would take an awful lot of land to practice either and do it right. You would also have to have 100% control on what happens on that large piece of property. Lee and Tiff and a couple others on tv are good examples. Large pieces of land under their control. They work for the largest bucks a property can give(TDM) and they use the same practice  as QDM  to get there.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Four Season Whitetails

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Also I wish some of these QDMA people would start talking deer density and habitat as nyantler mentioned. Seems to be a topic they wish to avoid.

Have to disagree with you on this. None of the ones from the organization I have heard speak are focused on the bucks. The ones I have heard speak are focused on the other factors with the more mature buck population being a benefit. Which QDMA people are you speaking of?

Edited March 24, 2014 by Culvercreek hunt club

[WNYBuckHunter]

Pretty simple. Give the area an AR law and the people not involved in the qdm program cant shoot the spikes and other little guys before their second birthday. More yearlings saved = more two year olds for the qdm members.

 

I thought you meant ARs would help save more 2 1/2s. I see your point now.

 

[dbHunterNY]

"I don't think it's too hard to judge age on the hoof, but it's asking a lot in the beginning I feel."

 

This isn't as easy as you think. I have watched shows where experts aged deer and they are looking at pictures trying to decide if they are 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 yr olds They don't necessarily agree and its all a guess.Try doing this at 75 yards with that buck trailing a doe through the woods.

 

Also I wish some of these QDMA people would start talking deer density and habitat as nyantler mentioned. Seems to be a topic they wish to avoid.

Have to disagree with you on this. None of the ones from the organization I have heard speak are focused on the bucks. The ones I have heard speak are focused on the other factors with the more mature buck population being a benefit. Which QDMA people are you speaking of?

 

I my limited experience with QDMA I have to agree with Culvercreek, at this meeting deer density and effects on habitat were the primary focus.  in this area there is a lot of deer due to a maintained mindset of don't kill a single doe.  they discussed how important it was to take an approximate percentage of doe to maintain proper density or achieve it.  also they showed pictures of habitat that has been effected so a landowner could compare finds to his/her woods so to speak.

 

also I don't think it's easy to age a deer on the hoof, that was my point.  it can't be expected of somebody to do it when they're just getting into this.  I feel deer are just like people some doe or some bucks respectively the same age could have varying physical characteristics that would subjectively put them into different age classes.  In general though certain characteristics used for aging hold true.  So I don't think it's too hard to the point I'd rule out it's use in the future as a management tool for our group... if the group even gets started. it's just going to take time and practice for anyone involved.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I'm sure we would get that problem.  you've got to start somewhere though and the learning curve is much quicker with ARs then aging deer.  The biologist said he's had countless deer shown to him that were mature bucks when in fact they were 1.5 or 2.5 years old.  I don't think it's too hard to judge age on the hoof, but it's asking a lot in the beginning I feel.  with the overall goal in mind I see no reason a buck like that couldn't be discussed with other members of the co-op and determined to be an exception (before it's taken, as to not stir the pot of course).

 

In a QDM co-op, you arent talking about having to teach thousands of people the way to age deer, its a relatively small number. You should be having periodic meetings, and mutual gatherings of the members through the year. Pick up some of the pamphlets, posters, DVDs, etc about how to age deer and distribute it to the members of the co-op. It will sink in eventually through repetition. Personally, I have a little bit easier time judging body characteristics from a distance than counting antler points. You can tell a 1 1/2 year old from a 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 pretty easy if you know what to look for. Now once you get into older class bucks, you will need some skill to tell a 4 1/2 from a 5 1/2, but thats not what you are looking for at this point anyhow.

[WNYBuckHunter]

"I don't think it's too hard to judge age on the hoof, but it's asking a lot in the beginning I feel."

 

This isn't as easy as you think. I have watched shows where experts aged deer and they are looking at pictures trying to decide if they are 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 yr olds They don't necessarily agree and its all a guess.Try doing this at 75 yards with that buck trailing a doe through the woods.

 

Also I wish some of these QDMA people would start talking deer density and habitat as nyantler mentioned. Seems to be a topic they wish to avoid.

 

You are 100% wrong on that. Try going to the QDMA website and reading up on the real aspects of a good QDM management plan, instead of listening to people that call their QDM program a QDMA program lol. They cant seem to get abbreviations right.

[dbHunterNY]

The real goal of QDM is NOT to harvest mature bucks... real QDM has little to do with bucks at all... it just so happens that bigger bucks is a fortunate by-product of a good deer management program...the real goal is optimum herd health given the habitat available. Like I have always said... this has been the bane of the real Quality Deer Management concept... concentrating more on what it does for the bucks than what it is doing for the herd. I still believe QDM has become something it never was intended to be and I am not a fan... and that is coming from a person that helped begin the movement in NY almost 25 years ago.

 

we were told in the meeting that it's not about shooting the heaviest doe or the oldest biggest buck.   the biologist said that Trophy Deer Management is when you're only thinking about the bucks and that QDM isn't that.  many go into QDM is a trophy deer management mindset and then things don't work when they look at the goals of QMD. by-product is just what it is and it's ok to want that.  it's just not the focus of your goals.  that's what we were told.