the tide is turning

[bubba]

Anyone dare to think outside the box and create a plan that might make folk sit-up and listen? Waving flags or putting up signs is not constructive. Ticking a box for another RINO is also likely to be waste of gas fuel. Time to smell the coffee folks. Politics has us hog-tied to a fail system.

 

 

so give us details of your plan maybe then we would understand since so far you have talked in circles.  Detail it so we can get on board.

[jjb4900]

The senate and assembly "leaders", who are Skelos and Klein had major role in this...

 

Per Wikipedia:

 

"In 2013 Dean Skelos, as senate leader was responsible for suspending senate rules and bringing the NY SAFE Act to the floor, he later voted for the SAFE Act and advocated its passage." 

 

Jeffery Klein, the assembly leader probably did the same thing in the assembly, but that is merely a guess.

 

Skelos is a senate republican from district 9 which is a section on Long Island near the towns of Freeport and Far rockaway. Klein is a democrat ( or independent democrat some crap like that) who represents assembly district 34 which is the Bronx area.

 

Before you all go and try to beat them up with an NRA flag, keep this in mind: Nothing moves in the environmental conservation committee until it gets a green light from Grisanti and Sweeney. Then, if a bill passes those committees it will not move to a vote by the general floor unless Skelos and Klein authorizes it to. 

 

So, I keep hearing this catch phrase about "one man". You have used it so has western NY buck hunter and so has the NY outdoor news. Maybe you are right, but please reconcile what you say with the process relating to the role of the so-called leaders and the statement from wikpedia about Skelos.

come on, you know what I was getting at.........I'll rephrase, "a handful of politicians changed the face of NYS gun laws in a very short period of time"....better?

Edited May 22, 2014 by jjb4900

[mike rossi]

come on, you know what I was getting at.........

 

Honestly, no, I do not...  

 

I was in an assembly members office yesterday about a different issue and they were more interested in talking about the SAFE Act and coyotes with me... I went online and basically verified what I was told and reported it here in this thread.

 

I have expressed my concerns with habit of sportsmen of getting on the wrong trail and creating traditional myths that stick for generations. We need to learn our crap. I am not excluding myself from that, although I really would prefer concentrating on ecology and not politics.

 

Another thing, are you not from Skelo's and/or Klein's part of the world? Ever think of driving down to their offices and getting a little (friendly) dialogue going with them?

[Doc]

Where did I propose a plan? Oh... that's right, I didn't.

 

Yes, that's right. You have no clue as to what to do. No plan other than to discourage others from trying to use the system. Well, That at least makes it clear that you are not one that anyone should be listening to. It's pretty much a waste of time to listen to a perpetual whiner that has nothing positive to offer. Only in your case it's worse than a waste of time. Your rhetoric can actually discourage people from taking positive action. Pretty much the same as any supporter of Cuomo and his gang would try to do.

[jjb4900]

Honestly, no, I do not...  

 

I was in an assembly members office yesterday about a different issue and they were more interested in talking about the SAFE Act and coyotes with me... I went online and basically verified what I was told and reported it here in this thread.

 

I have expressed my concerns with habit of sportsmen of getting on the wrong trail and creating traditional myths that stick for generations. We need to learn our crap. I am not excluding myself from that, although I really would prefer concentrating on ecology and not politics.

 

Another thing, are you not from Skelo's and/or Klein's part of the world? Ever think of driving down to their offices and getting a little (friendly) dialogue going with them?

I was commenting on someone else's post saying that modern politics can no longer effectively get things done, I was just making a general comment as to how quickly something recently got done that drastically changed the face of NY gun laws...........those two are way west of me.

[mike rossi]

I was commenting on someone else's post saying that modern politics can no longer effectively get things done, I was just making a general comment as to how quickly something recently got done that drastically changed the face of NY gun laws...........those two are way west of me.

 

I am not sure that in NY, how frequently politics can "effectively get things done", depending on what those things happen to be. Every 10 years the US Census Bureau counts people , for many reasons, but the main one is to establish voting districts based on population.

 

In NY, there is a denser population of people south of the Tappen Zee bridge; therefore there are more state assembly districts and state senate districts, especially assembly districts. Lawmakers cater to the contemporary , local values of the people they represent. More down state people means more down state lawmakers means more down state values being expressed in laws governing the entire state.

 

The root of the problem is public opinion. To get at thee root you must change public opinion. Pretty hard to do when others are trying to influence public opinion in the other direction. The sporting community put a lot of resources into recruiting youth the last decade. Besides the fact that most of these youths are from hunting families and were not really 'recruited" a better target demograph would have been young people approaching voting age or early voting age, like 17 to 19. Get this age cohort hunting AND voting pro gun/hunting and the "tide" will ebb and flow much quicker....

 

However, as we have been saying, over and over: it is easier to get the public to accept hunting and guns than it is to get individuals to become hunters and shooters. Therefore the emphasis should be on acceptance, not recruitment.

 

Fact of the matter, which most people on here do not want to hear; is that both acceptance and recruitment will never be achieved with hornography and spuragraphy. The public cannot relate to trophy hunting and to the youth it especially sounds uncool, nerdy, weird, and elmer fudish... Furthermore, the true additions to hunting and shooting are... No - not women... But Hispanics and locavores. These groups are after food - period, and they don't want to eat venison every day. The down state assembly is heavily represented by Hispanic lawmakers, and that's a good thing because Hispanics like to hunt or they want to learn or they did it in their old counties and would like to reunite with the activity. Likewise, the locavore movement is heavy down state. This is a good thing - the down state nemesis which has plagued us might actually turn tides...

[nyantler]

for those that don't think its possible.. here ya go

[Four Season Whitetail's]

for those that don't think its possible.. here ya go

gunowners.jpg

Thats nice but now add in the gun owners that see no use for (special) guns and they still vote for him. Like the video someone put up awhile back. People dont see it as taking their guns,like the shotgun or little pistol. But they see it as him doing a good thing getting useless weapons off the streets. Now the vote is swayed. His Way!

[bubba]

so educate people what this law is all about and get them on board.  One voter at a time.  Face to face not on the internet.  Get out knock on some doors.  It can help

Edited May 23, 2014 by bubba

[Culvercreek hunt club]

even the titles of the laws are crafted to elicit a certain response to them totally aside from the content. This is evident in polls and when talking to people. After all who could be against the "affordable care act", the "safe act" or the "compassionate care act". The focus on the uninformed and basically they count on the electorate to be lazy. They get their wish in that regard.

[philoshop]

Every negative attitude that is posted, explained and defended here, or on any other web site makes it just that much easier for the anti-gun crowd to get their way. You naysayers may end up being absolutely right on the money about everything, and if that makes you happy, good for you. In the meantime, stop standing in our way by helping the anti's.

[Mr VJP]

We're trying to help YOU, by warning you the fight you are hoping to win will not be as simple as you think. Since I can't even get you guys to understand that, I really have no hope of you winning the fight at all. That's why I can't be a part of it.

I hate anti's more than anyone, but I also have a very low tolerance for stupidity.

[philoshop]

So, offer us an alternative course of action. Let's hear your plan. I'm open to suggestions.

Fleeing from NY may be a solution to your problem, but it is not a solution to the problem here..

Armed insurrection and anarchy are not solutions.

Claiming that the problem is hopeless is not a solution.

Calling me stupid is not a solution.

 

You've made a lot of good points in your posts about how difficult this situation is for us. Even I get it.

Do you have anything constructive to offer this feeble-minded gent?

[Doc]

So, offer us an alternative course of action. Let's hear your plan. I'm open to suggestions.

Fleeing from NY may be a solution to your problem, but it is not a solution to the problem here..

Armed insurrection and anarchy are not solutions.

Claiming that the problem is hopeless is not a solution.

Calling me stupid is not a solution.

 

You've made a lot of good points in your posts about how difficult this situation is for us. Even I get it.

Do you have anything constructive to offer this feeble-minded gent?

This simple request has been made more than a few times already, and all we have seen so far is some not-so-artful dancing around the request. Neither one of these guys has ever come up with a practical plan of action. Their only contribution is to throw roadblocks in the way of those who are trying to make a difference. In doing so they become the dupes and allies of those that they claim to be against. There seems to be some kind of self-satisfaction and fulfillment involved in that kind of negativity. There is an arrogance there that is intended to supply the impression that they know and understand things that are over the head of so many commoners. Of course that delusional mentality is only useful for their own self-esteem issues, and will never be of any real value toward solving any problems.

[Mr VJP]

Once again.....

When NY gun owners were warned and told to wake up years ago, they laughed.

When Cuomo got elected Gov., they said he wouldn't take any guns and the Constitution would protect gun owners.

When the anti's started organizing their forces, NY gun owners said anyone who was worried was paranoid.

When the law passed, NY gun owners were shocked.

Now when you are being told the cold hard facts about how difficult it will be to put the scrambled egg back in it's shell, you want to say those of us who point that out are the problem.

Here's the only constructive advice I can give you.

At this point you are in for a VERY difficult and LONG battle. Get your game face on, educate yourself on a Master's degree level about the 2nd Amendment, the Constitution, the Legislature and rallying grassroots support for a cause. Invest every dollar you can spare to support the fight and try not to lose you job or your sanity in the process.

People like me, who knew this could've been avoided, and was ridiculed for it all the time, aren't willing to help NY gun owners out at this point.

Oh, and the next time someone tries to warn you about an impending disaster on the horizon, pay attention. Its a lot less trouble, and a lot less expensive, to be pro-active where Constitutional rights are concerned.

Doc likes to call this arrogance, but it's the truth. He just can't bring himself to admit it.

That's the only thing I can tell you guys at this point.

[Doc]

And once again, not one word of a plan or proposed action. Kind of makes all the rest of it to be merely irrelevant whining and whimpering. Not exactly useful. You would think that some one with the self professed ability of a prophet, would have all the answers on how to fix the problems. The intellect that could foresee the future that no one else was able to, seems to be reduced to running in circles, waving his arms in the air, and screaming, "Run for your lives, the sky is falling".....lol. That's not really much of a contribution toward problem solving is it? But he has plenty to say about those who really are trying to contribute. I'm sorry, I may sound a bit harsh, but I truly see those that would impede efforts at removing problem legislators to be as bad as those problem legislators themselves. Maybe even a bit worse because the anti-gunners are very clear and up-front regarding what they are trying to do and are not working within our own ranks to disrupt our efforts.

[Doc]

 

The ball is firmly in your court. Be the change you want to see. Don't rely on VJ or me to fix your problems. I have better things to do with my time.

That's the problem. You guys really don't have a clue about solutions. You both can whine right along with the best of them, but when it comes time to do something about what your whining about, neither of you has anything to offer other than to discourage others from doing anything. Frankly, I could care less as to whether your preferred path is to sit in the corner sucking your thumb and whimpering or running away from problems, but I have no use for those that discourage those that take the problems seriously enough to do something useful about them. And to sit there and actively discourage those that would take serious efforts to work the problems that you want to run away from, really is no where near as honorable an attitude as you would like to convince every here that it is. As they say, if you are not part of the solution then you are definitely part of the problem. You guys take it one step further and try to become an actual impediment to solutions. You might as well join up with the Cuomo camp where you belong and go about doing your work for them in an honest and up-front fashion.

[bubba]

We have a plan of action going state wide.  The only thing you offer is telling us how it will not work.  I need a masters degree to understand this fight?  Seems like a pretty elitist attitude like us dummies will never understand.  i guess that is where the no tolerance for stupidity line comes in.  Where were you geniuses when you had you epiphany?  I never heard anything from either of you.  i guess I missed that MENSA meeting. You both are totally full of crap.  You side step every question and throw back insults.  Pretty easy to see right through it.  Again tell Andy I said hi. 

[Doc]

Neither do you it seems. Ball back in your court again.

 

 

Oh...and this is not about having a clue or not having a clue.I've been involved politically and seen it all before. I know already where we are going. I have simply determined that my energies are best served elsewhere. You will get there also in time.

 

We will reconvene in a year or 2 after you have tried things the usual way. I'll say it now however because the result is inevitable:

 

Told ya so....

 

 

P.s.

 

There is no honor in politics. That is Alice in Wonderland stuff to be saying.

You see, that is where you are mistaken. I do have a very clear path that I am pursuing. I still have a belief in the democratic process and I intend to continue using it. Apparently you have lost complete faith in this country and are opting out of the process. That is your right, but just stay the hell out of the way of those that wish to use the system. We have enough problems of apathy here without your coaxing more people like yourself to sit passively by watching others do your work for you.

 

I may or may not succeed, but unlike you, I will be able to say that I honestly made the attempt.

[bubba]

cry me a river Bubba if it makes you feel better. There is no harm in idicating that which has repeatedly failed in the past is likely to fail again. It is indeed quite a sound and logical observation in fact.You're just sore becuase you know I'm right and your out of options and ideas.

 

If anybody is side stepping it is you guys.You're side stepping reality and have consistantly failed to accept that conservatism has been a politcal failure these last 4 decades. I bet you can't name 2 areas where Conservatives lost ground and definitively won it back later on.

 

That you guys repeat your silly Cuamo canard is merely a manifestation of your frustration and lack of ideas. Denial will not fix things.

 

 

If you had any clue what was really going on across the state, you would realize how silly this post is.  Maybe becoming engaged in the movement and at least trying to understand it might help.  You sit on the outside and criticize the entire process.  I have no river to cry, I just wonder how you make it through every day.  best of luck to you.  let us know when the next piece fo sky hits you on the head.  Oh BTW spell check works well

[Doc]

Doc, there is nothing honest about engaging in a failed system. It is the exact polar opposite of honest. It is, in fact, an acceptance of defeat.

 

 

And believe me you have proven yourself an absolute expert at being defeated. Your whole pathetic outlook is one of defeat without a single thought as to how you will climb your way out of your situation of hopelessness nor apparently any desire to do so. Sitting in a corner sucking your thumb and whining about how the world has you trapped is certainly a perfect vision of defeat. I have to tell you, it's a pitiful picture, but I have no sympathy for a quitter.

[turkeyfeathers]

   I am all for the signs, but I think unless your a gun owner some people don't know what they mean.  I know a few people that are not gun owners & ask "what's up with these safe act signs?". & because we want to repeal something that is suppose to be safe, we are the bad guys. Many have no clue what they are about.  I feel the signs should say something about protecting your/our gun rights or about the 2nd. Amendment. or our bill rights.   Just an observation I've noticed.

Mind you I'm all for the signs but two reasons I won't put one in my front yard

 

1) It lets LE know you have such guns

 2) It allows criminals to know you have such guns for the taking. Don't want to put my family in harms way if I'm not home to protect them in a burglary and while we are away on vacation(s)

[bubba]

Mind you I'm all for the signs but two reasons I won't put one in my front yard

 

1) It lets LE know you have such guns

 2) It allows criminals to know you have such guns for the taking. Don't want to put my family in harms way if I'm not home to protect them in a burglary and while we are away on vacation(s)

 

 

when you go away, you can take it down.  I refuse to be scared of either one to the point that I will not express my feelings and opinions.  I would be more concerned about what I type on here than a silly sign in my yard.

Edited May 24, 2014 by bubba

[Trial153]

Keep doing the same things and getting the same results ensures failure.

The two party system in NY and for the most part in the country has failed us.

Why? Because even when you win your losing.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Trial153

[bubba]

OK and your solution would be

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