Ohio Hunter Sentiment - Potential NY Model?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

My family's and groups tradition will be impacted severely if they shorten the gun seasons. The social aspect of that season is far more important to me that some "better hunting" dream. I hunt all seasons in both zones but SZ gun is where I grew up hunting and many of the group don't or can't hunt in other seasons. If they pander and shorten the season, I will really have to evaluate the worth of keeping a hunting lease in the SZ.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And the Ohio DNR makes changes each and every year, and they're oftentimes MAJOR changes to react to the current state and attempt to make the next season/future seasons best managed. They get crap done in the period between the end of season and the regs being set each and every year. We don't. Politics? Yes. A model that works, though? Much better than what we have.

 

People at the end of the day just want to cling to their guns in their beds and be irrational about the fact that a successful deer management model likely involves fewer days afield with the bang stick than what we have now and the timing of those days. We bitch and moan about deer hunting here in NY, and you know what - we're NEVER going to get anywhere even close to what hunters here want with a super long gun season in a period of time where bucks are vulnerable. Sure, we can chip away, but it's not going to be day/night different.

True and maybe...Just Maybe..Some in Ny are catching on. Most people dont really care what rules are what. They will still hunt. The older folks will drop out regardless and the same very low numbers of new hunters will come in, Regardless of rules.

 

We discussed this before and i was told i was full of it..and maybe i am..but i said hunting was headed to $ one way or the other and it still looks like its headed that way. Many say they already choose to let the baby bucks walk and DEC see's that so they figure its no big deal if they make it a law. People are already doing it anyways right? That would take care of Ar. So now they look at the 1 buck rule, They want more and bigger bucks for the masses that plant, cut and do any other crazy thing to kill a big buck and spend big $ to do it so they will pass the 1 buck rule. This will in turn force more doe harvests in the areas that they want doe harvests and by cutting 7 days of of hunting season will force the time thing on hunters so they better harvest one asap.

They have it all figured out.

[steve863]

OK, so where did anyone say take them out of the picture? You might have misread something in your haste to reply.

 

 

If you guys want a shorter gun season like the one week long season (which must be a total madhouse) in Ohio, then the guns are surely being squeezed out of the picture.  I could care less for a 4 month bow season.  I prefer to have a few weeks of gun and be done with things.  I and most others don't have an unlimited amount of time to hunt.  Make the gun season one week, and many will say "to hell with it all".  They surely won't be picking up a bow or crossbow to make up for things when it typically takes a lot more time to collect a deer with one of these weapons.  Time that most of us DON'T have.

[phade]

You're right of course.

 

 

What is your point in starting this thread? 

 

 

New York can't manage deer, whether it be the hunters or the people responsible for its oversight. Ohio has a model proven to be able to control the numbers with much better precision - lowering or raising harvest rates with accuracy of a few basis points based on their model that is fluid. NY has deisgned model after model, and is still challenged with overpopulation and underpopulation.

 

Yet we as hunters don't want to accept much of any of the changes proposed or can't come to close to a clear majority on changes.

 

Not saying I am right or wrong about anything in my views as they are opinions. It's just a commentary on the NY side of things. If it's possible to be done, why can't we?

[phade]

better according to who?, the guys/girl i work with (about 20 ohio residents ) are amazed at our hunting opportunities and have started to hunt here. as land access and cost of leases are going up and are out of reach for many residents.(an acre of land is 5000 there) most that do extensive hunting get permission from farmers to shoot does only on nusence tags.

You need written permission to be on any land and their game department is much larger and better staffed. Mandatory deer checks that are staffed,and they can do changes as they are in charge of game in ohio, nys dec is not in charge of anything everything must go thru nys legislature so quick changes or extending the season for a few day or doe only weekend to reach numbers desired is impossible. So the question is its better according to who?

 

 

Funny you say that about the opportunities, because my experience has been different. Land-owning Ohioans are much more receptive to permission in my experience. I get about a 5-fold increase in the number of yes that I receive from Ohio landowners than I do here in NY. For free, too. And, that's me reaching out, out of the blue, no networking. If you search basecampleasing, the leasing rates are about the same as here in NY on equivalent ground.

 

Ohio stopped doing mandatory checks. The system they use is similar to ours in that respect.

 

The regs management is a big hurdle. Instead of working within the confines of the legislature, why not try to push for that autonomy? Seems like nobody brings that up.

[phade]

My family's and groups tradition will be impacted severely if they shorten the gun seasons. The social aspect of that season is far more important to me that some "better hunting" dream. I hunt all seasons in both zones but SZ gun is where I grew up hunting and many of the group don't or can't hunt in other seasons. If they pander and shorten the season, I will really have to evaluate the worth of keeping a hunting lease in the SZ.

 

I'm not specifically talking about better hunting. I'm referring to managing the resource as much, if not more than the quality of the hunting experience.

 

What has NY been able to do that has been able to fix the overpopulated areas or underpopulated areas with any degree of major change and control?

[Lawdwaz]

New York can't manage deer, whether it be the hunters or the people responsible for its oversight. Ohio has a model proven to be able to control the numbers with much better precision - lowering or raising harvest rates with accuracy of a few basis points based on their model that is fluid. NY has deisgned model after model, and is still challenged with overpopulation and underpopulation.

 

Yet we as hunters don't want to accept much of any of the changes proposed or can't come to close to a clear majority on changes.

 

Not saying I am right or wrong about anything in my views as they are opinions. It's just a commentary on the NY side of things. If it's possible to be done, why can't we?

 

How familiar are you with PA; how would you rate their balance as to herd numbers compared to Ohio & NY?

 

[phade]

If you guys want a shorter gun season like the one week long season (which must be a total madhouse) in Ohio, then the guns are surely being squeezed out of the picture.  I could care less for a 4 month bow season.  I prefer to have a few weeks of gun and be done with things.  I and most others don't have an unlimited amount of time to hunt.  Make the gun season one week, and many will say "to hell with it all".  They surely won't be picking up a bow or crossbow to make up for things when it typically takes a lot more time to collect a deer with one of these weapons.  Time that most of us DON'T have.

 

So, do people in NY have less time than those in IL, WI, OH, etc. that have shorter gun seasons? If anything, one could argue the tradition is stronger there in some aspects because of it.

 

i guess I'm just trying to understand how these other states have hunters with the same time limitations, likely same desires as we do hunting wise, get by with the days afield and be the tool that manages the resource?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

New York can't manage deer, whether it be the hunters or the people responsible for its oversight. Ohio has a model proven to be able to control the numbers with much better precision - lowering or raising harvest rates with accuracy of a few basis points based on their model that is fluid. NY has deisgned model after model, and is still challenged with overpopulation and underpopulation.

 

Yet we as hunters don't want to accept much of any of the changes proposed or can't come to close to a clear majority on changes.

 

Not saying I am right or wrong about anything in my views as they are opinions. It's just a commentary on the NY side of things. If it's possible to be done, why can't we?

No you are right and many are afraid of change. It will take time to change things for the better but we must start some where.

 

I dont believe many would drop out of hunting if it was only a week or two split season or something. They would adjust their time and go out and kill a deer. Hunters will hunt. The ones that are not vested or call themselves hunters are on the fence even now to call it quits.

 

Hunters will find the time to hunt. Why do you think some pay outfitters or even high fence? Time. The whole world is a changing and hunting for many is not a long drawn out season that includes different weapons. They have a week or two vaca and 1 goes to hunting and 1 goes to the family. Very few are lucky enough to fill in 3 months of deer hunting.

[phade]

How familiar are you with PA; how would you rate their balance as to herd numbers compared to Ohio & NY?

 

 

PA is as hot of a mess as NY depending on the view one has. They've made changes, but I think the consensus is that they made mistakes similar to NY that had impacts beyond the measure, execute, measure, modify 1 or 2 things, execute, and reassess practice. Remember when NY trounced the overall deer herd 10 or so years ago? PA did similar with their antlerless if I recall.

 

The point being that certain state models can work to result in a well managed resource that can quickly recover if a mistake is made. If that premise is accepted, then its possible NY can do it. But, in reality, we're spinning our wheels.

I hope this helps convey why I posted this to begin with.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

So, do people in NY have less time than those in IL, WI, OH, etc. that have shorter gun seasons? If anything, one could argue the tradition is stronger there in some aspects because of it.

 

i guess I'm just trying to understand how these other states have hunters with the same time limitations, likely same desires as we do hunting wise, get by with the days afield and be the tool that manages the resource?

Thats easy..Those states are made up of and made for big time.big deer hunters. They want an demand trophy size deer and the states make $ very well out of the deal. There are also plenty of deer for the weekend meat hunter. No long drawn out affair and the seasons and weapons used during those seasons shows this. No guns during the rut. Huge!

[steve863]

Thats easy..Those states are made up of and made for big time.big deer hunters. They want an demand trophy size deer and the states make $ very well out of the deal. There are also plenty of deer for the weekend meat hunter. No long drawn out affair and the seasons and weapons used during those seasons shows this. No guns during the rut. Huge!

 

 

As usual, you think it should all revolve around antlers.  You need to rent a U-Haul and load it up with your freak deer and move to Ohio then, since it's all about antlers over there!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

As usual, you think it should all revolve around antlers.  You need to rent a U-Haul and load it up with your freak deer and move to Ohio then, since it's all about antlers over there!

Right. Me and the thousands of others that like to hunt something that takes a little skill to get the job done. No need to move when all that is already here. Just need a little Mgmt and for the state to listen to those that have the most vested and are willing to invest more in the state  Be part of the growth or be on your way.

[dbHunterNY]

No you are right and many are afraid of change. It will take time to change things for the better but we must start some where.

 

I dont believe many would drop out of hunting if it was only a week or two split season or something. They would adjust their time and go out and kill a deer. Hunters will hunt. The ones that are not vested or call themselves hunters are on the fence even now to call it quits.

 

Hunters will find the time to hunt. Why do you think some pay outfitters or even high fence? Time. The whole world is a changing and hunting for many is not a long drawn out season that includes different weapons. They have a week or two vaca and 1 goes to hunting and 1 goes to the family. Very few are lucky enough to fill in 3 months of deer hunting.

 

I agree with this.  however, I do think you can only shorten seasons so much before getting some angry and not buying tags the following year, even from a hunter who's reasonable.  there's times at my work where I could say good bye to a 2 week long season (say regular season), especially when adding in life.  fortunately I hunt with everything.  if my schedule is really busy it won't matter if I want vacation, because I simply can't have it and wouldn't even ask.  beyond that I would most definitely make the time to hunt.  your break-up of vacation time is spot on.

[dbHunterNY]

"Deer hunting in Ohio has radically changed over the last couple of decades. While gun hunters once killed 90 percent of the deer during their short week-long season, bowhunters now harvest more than 50 percent of the deer aided by a four-month campaign. More deer are now taken with crossbows, which were first allowed in 1979, rather than compound bows or traditional longbows."

 

I mentioned a couple years ago this would happen, and it did finally, gun hunter's relegated to the back seat as far as the harvest numbers go.

 

Ohio hunters are interestingly upset at the deer numbers this year, but they're complaining about harvest rates much more stable than ours. The DNR there has been able to effectively get harvest numbers up in areas they want. The DEC can't. That's interesting to me.

 

Rumor is starting that they may reduce crossbow opportunity - probably minimal chance, but there are sources out there citing this now.

 

I think rifle vs shotgun would definitely be a factor here in 4C.  we're rifle and many people take 200 yard pokes.  I touched on some of this in another thread where I think they should make it so tags can be filled sooner both from a biological and increasing harvest stand point.  limit of 1 buck taken in a specific season to keep gun hunters happy.  however, if I wanted and had the opportunity I could fill all three normally issued tags during early season; 2 doe and 1 buck.  I known myself and multiple other hunters that only fill one tag early season because if they filled both possible with doe they're done until reg season and couldn't continue to hunt for a buck.  as the season progresses things come up.  we get pressure and good crops of mast like this past season.  they now don't want to shoot a doe peak rut because they think it'll monkey up their spot or they'll lose her as buck bait.  season ends and they fill some tags but not all.  I don't think Ohio limits you like this, correct?

 

also another thing DEC gets crappy data to work with.  I like the idea of an online or over the phone check-in process that gives you a confirmation number.  it's something an ECO could check on to make sure your honest and report your harvest, giving DEC better data.  I don't think many report there harvests here in NY as it's the honor system and they're more worried about having a filled out tag.

 

[phade]

I think rifle vs shotgun would definitely be a factor here in 4C.  we're rifle and many people take 200 yard pokes.  I touched on some of this in another thread where I think they should make it so tags can be filled sooner both from a biological and increasing harvest stand point.  limit of 1 buck taken in a specific season to keep gun hunters happy.  however, if I wanted and had the opportunity I could fill all three normally issued tags during early season; 2 doe and 1 buck.  I known myself and multiple other hunters that only fill one tag early season because if they filled both possible with doe they're done until reg season and couldn't continue to hunt for a buck.  as the season progresses things come up.  we get pressure and good crops of mast like this past season.  they now don't want to shoot a doe peak rut because they think it'll monkey up their spot or they'll lose her as buck bait.  season ends and they fill some tags but not all.  I don't think Ohio limits you like this, correct?

 

also another thing DEC gets crappy data to work with.  I like the idea of an online or over the phone check-in process that gives you a confirmation number.  it's something an ECO could check on to make sure your honest and report your harvest, giving DEC better data.  I don't think many report there harvests here in NY as it's the honor system and they're more worried about having a filled out tag.

 

 

 

Alot of points raised, but the real driver is why can't we as hunters and those responsible for deer management in this state get to the point where we have a model that works? You can blame the politicians and the under-staffing, but then with the things they can do or try to make better, we as hunters can't change or agree on things, leaving us largely idle in the end.

 

Some people wanted no change here to the current regs/season based upon the possibles put forth by the DEC. The DEC put them forth in whatever limited capacity/ability they have, yet we can't agree on changes or want no changes - when we probably can all say that things currently are not great or even good because we can't get a handle on managing the resource. Overpopulation, under-enforcement, under-population, hunter retention, opportunities, and so on and so forth. I see 9/10 posts in this thread thinkg about "yeah, but," or reasons why we can't do something. Very little on the "Let's try to figure out what we can do. Maybe something's possible."

 

I have no answers, but I'm open to discussion on it, and not blindly dismissing anything we can do that might make things better from a model perspective. My opinion is that this requires a cultural change - and that's the type of change that takes the longest.

Edited January 23, 2015 by phade

[Culvercreek hunt club]

why can't we as hunters and those responsible for deer management in this state get to the point where we have a model that works? .

The definition of that is varied in the groups you mentioned. It appears, from what we see even here, that the end goal is vastly different for us.  

[phade]

The definition of that is varied in the groups you mentioned. It appears, from what we see even here, that the end goal is vastly different for us.  

 

Let me re-phrase this then - where you would rank NY as far as deer managed states go? Overall, whether you include hunter sentiment or not, or just look at the resource management component.

 

Would you say it's top 50%, bottom 50%? Top 25 or bottom 25?

 

I most certainly wouldn't put it in the top 50%.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Let me re-phrase this then - where you would rank NY as far as deer managed states go? Overall, whether you include hunter sentiment or not, or just look at the resource management component.

 

Would you say it's top 50%, bottom 50%? Top 25 or bottom 25?

 

I most certainly wouldn't put it in the top 50%.

I think your phrasing was fine. I think people just look to get different things out of a season, and are willing to put different efforts in. What make the experience for one will be different for another. Personally I have never hunted whitetail out of NY state except for a couple times to PA so I don't think it is fair for me to voice where I believe they are on the scale. I can only gauge the laws and regulations here and how they measure up for me and what I believe would be best for the sport, here. I would be the vast majority of deer hunters have no or limited first hand experience with out of state hunting.

 

Just based on the regulations and what I know of them. I can't put us in the upper 50%. Number one in my book is wildlife biologists should be running the show and they aren't. I also think there are other things that could have been approached before actions like shortening the season of a vast expansion of AR's. Number one being the damned antlerless only and either sex with the bow/ML. Number two being the removal of the nuisance tag system.  show the hunting public that they can make good decisions that aren't going to backfire and turn the sport on its head and they may have the confidence and support to back other changes. I don't have that confidence in our current management, especially if we are relying on a survey to set policy.

[phade]

I think your phrasing was fine. I think people just look to get different things out of a season, and are willing to put different efforts in. What make the experience for one will be different for another. Personally I have never hunted whitetail out of NY state except for a couple times to PA so I don't think it is fair for me to voice where I believe they are on the scale. I can only gauge the laws and regulations here and how they measure up for me and what I believe would be best for the sport, here. I would be the vast majority of deer hunters have no or limited first hand experience with out of state hunting.

 

Just based on the regulations and what I know of them. I can't put us in the upper 50%. Number one in my book is wildlife biologists should be running the show and they aren't. I also think there are other things that could have been approached before actions like shortening the season of a vast expansion of AR's. Number one being the damned antlerless only and either sex with the bow/ML. Number two being the removal of the nuisance tag system.  show the hunting public that they can make good decisions that aren't going to backfire and turn the sport on its head and they may have the confidence and support to back other changes. I don't have that confidence in our current management, especially if we are relying on a survey to set policy.

 

I understand your POV and clearly valid points.

 

Your second paragraph is alot of "them." What about hunters? Isn't part of the responsibility on us to do our part - and I don't think its fair to say the DEC needs to turn around before we do. It should be simultaneously in my opinion. We're just as much to blame as the DEC. Just because the tags are issued, are we required to fill them? Or is it just giving us the choice to fill them? At the end of the day, we're the tool, but also the decision maker at times.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I understand your POV and clearly valid points.

 

Your second paragraph is alot of "them." What about hunters? Isn't part of the responsibility on us to do our part - and I don't think its fair to say the DEC needs to turn around before we do. It should be simultaneously in my opinion. We're just as much to blame as the DEC. Just because the tags are issued, are we required to fill them? Or is it just giving us the choice to fill them? At the end of the day, we're the tool, but also the decision maker at times.

That is one reason why I believe all do take should be handled by the lottery system. If you property doesn't support taking do then don't enter, or enter for an area that will support it. It should be equal opportunity to take a doe for all hunters not just bow/ML. I land owner could have the population to justify taking doe in an area that get no or few permits and he can't unless they bow/ML hunt. And I do think you should no before you apply for a permit if you are going to try to fill them. There are several guys I know that apply that would never shoot a doe. They just don't want others to be able to fill them either. So I guess the readers digest version is I agree with you . We need individual responsibility but there should also be good management tools in place and ones that instill confidence in the system and the ones managing it.

[G-Man]

The topic of dec autonomy is,the only issue, every thing else is,a political compromise. Why isnt it brought up? Because As a whole we are apothetic, everyone ecxpects a season next year,99% do not understand there is no season till its signed into law for next year. Those that bought a liftime licence think it's a permanent thing... I do not know how to wake people up to this fact. Until the dec is seperate from enviromental and is its own game comission able to act on its own making seasons and changes nessasarry as deemed by its biologists.. it's not going to. Change fast enough to meet conditions and or demand.

[jjb4900]

I understand your POV and clearly valid points.

 

Your second paragraph is alot of "them." What about hunters? Isn't part of the responsibility on us to do our part - and I don't think its fair to say the DEC needs to turn around before we do. It should be simultaneously in my opinion. We're just as much to blame as the DEC. Just because the tags are issued, are we required to fill them? Or is it just giving us the choice to fill them? At the end of the day, we're the tool, but also the decision maker at times.

that's spot on, hunters need to take some responsibility in the management aspect, how many guys fill as many tags as they have just because they have them and then turn around and complain there are no deer and that DEC gives out too many tags.....I've seen it first hand.........as much as I hunt and will pretty much shoot any legal buck or doe, I've realized that as of late, the area that I hunt has a pretty low deer population and passed on every antlerless deer I saw this year and as pissed off as I was when they first passed AR's in my area, I now just sit back and hope they will eventually pay off, and not so much so I can shoot bigger deer, but so I can see more deer.

[dbHunterNY]

I understand your POV and clearly valid points.

 

Your second paragraph is alot of "them." What about hunters? Isn't part of the responsibility on us to do our part - and I don't think its fair to say the DEC needs to turn around before we do. It should be simultaneously in my opinion. We're just as much to blame as the DEC. Just because the tags are issued, are we required to fill them? Or is it just giving us the choice to fill them? At the end of the day, we're the tool, but also the decision maker at times.

 

I think this is part of the reason numbers of co-ops starting up have been growing in our area.  hunters are sick of nothing changing.  one comment our ears are always subjected to is "I wish the state would do something like this." not realizing we're probably better off doing the stuff ourselves as a co-op making informed decisions and then accept DEC help when available (like DMAP tags for population management).

 

DEC seems to make decisions largely influenced on whether it's accepted by hunters as a whole, who aren't necessarily well informed from a biological stand point and largely driven by so many individual specific wants or desires.  I believe if they did what is required to manage deer herds, seeking direction and information for sources outside dated info the DEC maybe holds onto. no hunter will probably be ok with every decision they make but with the benefits of a better managed herd everyone will be generally happy with the way things will end up.  whether that is a pipe dreams or not i'll continue to learn and share it with others, especially those within the co-op I'm apart of.  with a little luck but mostly education, effort, and due diligence we and our kids will have better hunting at least within our co-op and neighboring ones .... while keeping DEC in the loop, in hopes of some future benefit to NYS deer hunters.

[Five Seasons]

Balance is good. Appeasing as many hunters and giving options is a good thing IMO.

It isn't a harvest, it's a kill, Mr PC.

Are you really picking out a word that is used by the state? They're reported as harvest numbers. Good lord.

I'm not against gun hunting. I just don't see why more bow hunters is the end of the world.