interesting poll

[jjb4900]

I guess if it ever came to mandatory reporting regardless of success, they could always suspend a hunting license for failure to do so....probably not much different then suspending a drivers license or registration for the variety of reasons they do, there is no fine in most cases and the only time you would be fined is if caught driving with the suspended status in effect...

[phade]

I guess if it ever came to mandatory reporting regardless of success, they could always suspend a hunting license for failure to do so....probably not much different then suspending a drivers license or registration for the variety of reasons they do, there is no fine in most cases and the only time you would be fined is if caught driving with the suspended status in effect...

 

That's a good idea.

[nyantler]

You're dealing with people that have an existing system to defend. They maybe don't want people rocking their boat. To me what they are saying is that they want to maintain the status quo. If they admit that there is a crack in any part of their system, they leave the door open for the whole thing to be questioned and upset. It is frustrating. I understand how they might set up a defensive posture. Nobody likes their methods questioned. Perhaps had it been pointed out how such a system would save the DEC time effort and money they might have had a bit more interest ... lol.

 

I think that when they hear the words "save time and money" they immediately think someone's losing their job...lol

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I guess if it ever came to mandatory reporting regardless of success, they could always suspend a hunting license for failure to do so....probably not much different then suspending a drivers license or registration for the variety of reasons they do, there is no fine in most cases and the only time you would be fined is if caught driving with the suspended status in effect...

You hunt Letchworth state park and you get a permit to hunt and you get a questioner to send back at the end of the season. You dont send it back in. You dont hunt the park the next year. They used to be pretty lax on this but now they are really turning hunters down. The girls go through the 500 permits issued for the west side to see if they all reported if the hunted the year prior. If not, you geta turn down and the reason why. Word has it that they are now even checking cabin renters for the ones that think they can get around it that way.

I see no reason that they cant have mandatory reports and sending in unused tags. You get a tag and your name better be on the harvest report or your unused tag had better been sent back and destroyed. No early bow in the north so no reason to carry over tags.

[stubby68]

                If someone does not want the dec to know what they killed all they have to do is report as tags not filled. Mandatory or not they still would not have useable numbers. Unless hunters check in every deer killed the numbers will never be correct, There are a lot of guys who get dmp and never use because they do not want does killed. They then report that they filled the tags. They figure that by doing this they get tags that someone else might have filled so they save some does. They also figure  that if the tags are reported as filled the dec figures that into the take as reduction of numbers and might lead to fewer dmp in that area the next year.

 

 

                    Mandatory wont work for this reason.  Can not suspend license for not reporting because they did. They just gave false info that no one can prove is false. Just report tags filled if you want to show deer being killed. Report as not filled if you want to show no deer killed. I knew a couple guys who always reported there dmp as not filled even when they filled everyone they got. They figured that woul keep the tag numbers up in there area every year. The only real way for them to know how many deer there are in an area is to put boot to ground and get in the woods and get the data first hand. And that will not happen they have neither the resources or access to get real heard numbers. Thaat is why they make up numbers.

[nyantler]

 If I knew a couple guys who always reported there dmp as not filled even when they filled everyone they got. They figured that woul keep the tag numbers up in there area every year.

 

This is one of the reasons why NY can't get anything done in the way of good deer management... the selfish hunter.. NY is loaded with them... my guess would be that 95% of hunters couldn't care less about proper game management (ie. conservation)... we might be better off letting the deer population explode and eliminate tags all together.. let hunters shoot all the deer they want. Whack 'em and Stack 'em. That seems to be what hunters really want. LOL.. unfortunately the same 30% of hunters would still be killing the same amount of deer

[G-Man]

Entries vary each year... I have seen years with 150 and yearswith 400... on average maybe 200 + entries... a very small percentage of overall bucks taken, but there are many bucks that are never scored and bucks that just miss the book that would be considered big bucks by most. Still, you're probably looking at less than one half of one percent of all bucks taken would be considered big bucks.

I wonder how that compares to other big buck states. I know it seems like every deer they shoot on tv is a big one (most I've seen on dvd descriptions a re 130's to 150's GROSS score. ) yes the media picks the biggest bucks and runs stories on them, I wonder what percent of other states are "big. Bucks"

[Doc]

                If someone does not want the dec to know what they killed all they have to do is report as tags not filled. Mandatory or not they still would not have useable numbers. Unless hunters check in every deer killed the numbers will never be correct, There are a lot of guys who get dmp and never use because they do not want does killed. They then report that they filled the tags. They figure that by doing this they get tags that someone else might have filled so they save some does. They also figure  that if the tags are reported as filled the dec figures that into the take as reduction of numbers and might lead to fewer dmp in that area the next year.

 

                    Mandatory wont work for this reason.  Can not suspend license for not reporting because they did. They just gave false info that no one can prove is false. Just report tags filled if you want to show deer being killed. Report as not filled if you want to show no deer killed. I knew a couple guys who always reported there dmp as not filled even when they filled everyone they got. They figured that woul keep the tag numbers up in there area every year. The only real way for them to know how many deer there are in an area is to put boot to ground and get in the woods and get the data first hand. And that will not happen they have neither the resources or access to get real heard numbers. Thaat is why they make up numbers.

Ha-ha-ha .... Yes we always hear about these people who break this law and break that law, but when somebody asks, "What did the DEC do to them when you turned them in?", the answer always comes back, "Well gosh I didn't do that."

 

But anyway, we cannot base wildlife management policies using these kinds of anecdotal statements and perhaps even imaginings. The fact is that we have absolutely no idea how prevalent these violations are. We have no clue as to whether any of that is even statistically significant. If we suspend all attempts at managing wildlife because here and there we find game law violators, my guess is that there shortly wouldn't be any wildlife to manage. We whine and cry about the terrible job that the DEC does and then we shoot down all attempts to do that job better. If those DEC guys develop an "attitude" when it comes to hunters, I think I am beginning to see why that might happen.

[Doc]

How does one defend themselves if accused in that situation?

 

Seems like even one level beyond a red light camera because there's not even a picture of them breaking the law. You are trying to disprove something that doesn't exist in a court of law. Where's the accuser to question?

That is why I said that the first response by the DEC when their computers find a tag that didn't have a report, might be to send out a warning letter asking for the report. So you get an additional chance to report or re-report if an error had occurred. A period of time is allowed for your response, and then a ticket is sent out.

 

Remember, the offense is not reporting the results of your license or permit. The proof is, you either did or you didn't, and the computer has the data on that.

[mike rossi]

Agreed.. and probably the reason why it would be hard for this state to emulate any other state in it's attempt at better deer management... our hunter population is fickle at best, with a healthy dose of apathy and uneducated thrown in for good measure.

 

Joe,

I am not going to go back and find your post, but your statement that professionally conducted surveys and this one done by NYON are equally random is ridiculous. Do you really believe the NYON surveyed anyone outside it's readership? I will leave it there, no need to delve deeper, but I could point out a laundry list of disparities... 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Joe,

I am not going to go back and find your post, but your statement that professionally conducted surveys and this one done by NYON are equally random is ridiculous. Do you really believe the NYON surveyed anyone outside it's readership? I will leave it there, no need to delve deeper, but I could point out a laundry list of disparities... 

Yes and not all their readers. I missed that one somehow. Who know;s maybe it was mostly new hunters without much experience under their belt that made most of the replies? Hard to say from just a small group of hunters.

[dbHunterNY]

That is exactly the plan I proposed and it was basically shrugged off as not really important or necessary... like I said, I found that quite odd. They were very adamant about their figures being extremely accurate when done statistically... don't ask me how they know that, but they seemed pretty sure of themselves and showed little, if any, interest in my plan.

 

sounds like you were talking to some bad apples within the DEC.  More I read Doc's idea the more I like it.  You're required to report your harvest free of charge so what's the difference reporting at the end if you didn't.  I wouldn't take away tags but fines after a couple automated warnings or mailings might do.  we're not talking about registering guns here.  they already know if you take something and that you have a license.  the cost is minimal as it's already using a lot of infrastructure in place.  I'm going to pass the idea around.

[The_Real_TCIII]

Reporting a kill is mandatory, so you already can assume unreported tags are unfilled. I'm sure they statistically adjust for non compliance

[jjb4900]

Reporting a kill is mandatory, so you already can assume unreported tags are unfilled. I'm sure they statistically adjust for non compliance

I think that roughly only 50% of successful hunters report their kill, that alone tell's you they don't take the "mandatory reporting" too seriously.........

[The_Real_TCIII]

No doubt compliance is terrible but what more can you do to get it? They just have to adjust for that 50% and go from there for estimating

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I would pay higher license fees to see every licensing outlet have a scanner or some sort. scan in your filled and unfilled tags or you don't get them for the following year.

[jjb4900]

or instead of handing you an accordion of tags when you first buy your license, limit that # and only give the additional out after you report or check in your deer.........but, all that extra work on the hunters and issuing agents part would go over like a lead balloon.

Edited January 30, 2015 by jjb4900

[The_Real_TCIII]

I would pay higher license fees to see every licensing outlet have a scanner or some sort. scan in your filled and unfilled tags or you don't get them for the following year.

there are a lot of things I'd pay higher license fees for, as long as the money goes to the right places. Right now we pay about what a round of golf with lunch costs and we get to hunt and fish for a year. And for all our complaining our hunting and fishing is pretty darned good

[Doc]

No doubt compliance is terrible but what more can you do to get it? They just have to adjust for that 50% and go from there for estimating

I have already explained how to solve almost all of the compliance problem. No estimates, no guessing, just simple computer programming and rules changes.

[Doc]

I would pay higher license fees to see every licensing outlet have a scanner or some sort. scan in your filled and unfilled tags or you don't get them for the following year.

Not necessary. We have automated reporting systems that turn your voice or your computer inputs into ones and zeroes that require no manual computer inputting by DEC personnel. That's an ideal way of eliminating man-hours of labor and potential duplication errors. The systems are already in place and in a computer friendly format. All we need is incentive to comply.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

or instead of handing you an accordion of tags when you first buy your license, limit that # and only give the additional out after you report or check in your deer.........but, all that extra work on the hunters and issuing agents part would go over like a lead balloon.

I don't follow. Do you mean like one doe tag at a time? I wouldn't want that. It would stop the ability of taking multiple deer on the same day or out of the same group.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Not necessary. We have automated reporting systems that turn your voice or your computer inputs into ones and zeroes that require no manual computer inputting by DEC personnel. That's an ideal way of eliminating man-hours of labor and potential duplication errors. The systems are already in place and in a computer friendly format. All we need is incentive to comply.

I don't agree. In your scenario you can still take a deer and just repot it as no harvest. An in person scan eliminates all that except for those willing to take and transport an u tagged deer. I can't believe the machines would be that tough to scan the tags. Similar to how you scan your own lottery tickets. Barcodes and dots filled in. No real manpower addition. Self scan and a printed receipt that is then used in the license line in order to buy you next license.

[Doc]

I don't agree. In your scenario you can still take a deer and just repot it as no harvest. An in person scan eliminates all that except for those willing to take and transport an u tagged deer. I can't believe the machines would be that tough to scan the tags. Similar to how you scan your own lottery tickets. Barcodes and dots filled in. No real manpower addition. Self scan and a printed receipt that is then used in the license line in order to buy you next license.

Anyone who is intent on falsifying hunting results can do that no matter what system you use short of in-person DEC road checks. And even with road checks, you are counting on hunters loading the deer onto their cars and carting them who knows how many miles just to perform a harvest report. If we are concerned about people illegally falsifying reports, imagine how many new instant home butchers would be created ... lol. 

 

So, there is really nothing guaranteeing that whatever you are scanning in has truthful info on it either. The real question is, "is lying on reports really a statistically significant problem". If so, there is no system that is sabotage-proof.

 

Actually there is no way that a hunter can enter dates, gender, antler points, townships of kill, and all of the other info that we supply in bar-code form or even filled in dots. The forms would have to be huge to allow all the different variations of responses. So someone still has to read that hand-printed info from the scan and manually type it into computers for every report submitted. That is significant man-hours of labor, whereas, all of that info can currently be inputted directly into computer-useful ones and zeroes in current phone or computer hunter reports. And all with no expenses of purchase and maintenance of additional equipment, or any requirement that the hunter get in his car or even leave his home.

 

As far as hard-copy receipts being a requirement for buying next year's license, remember that a lot of people receive their licenses through the mail without any face-to-face contact with a licensing agent.

 

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There really isn't that much data on the tag. I don't see the issue. Dates are easy and are there already in what we cut out. Unless they changed it I do t think we report antler points. It is on the tag but I don't think it reports. Season and implement used are dots now. The only sticking point I see is location of the kill. I haven't done it to compare but I wonder how the zip code maps works? Might as well have some use for that code beside delivery of junk mail. Lol.

As fast as licenses by mail. Do tags are available online? I haven't tried that but I will this year. Hate those lines. I still can't see why a code on the receipt from registering g you tags couldn't be used on line when ordering.

I do think the problem is more wide spread than we may think. I hear so many accounts especially the getting the tag and reporting it without taking the doe. I guess there is no stopping that no matter what change is made.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Thats why it has to be deer check and turn in old tags. Just like Ar..Many say let hunters save the little guys, well most wont and will take a spike over a doe or hold off until crunch time and then take the spike when time is up, even though the meat may not be needed but hate to have that empty tag.