EPA's Wood-Burning Stove Ban Has Chilling Consequences For Many Rural People

[growalot]

So when do they start going after all the ppl using tractors...how about the town, county state workers using chain saws and idoling trucks,bulldozers ,backhoes ect...ect..ect

[Mr VJP]

Grow, I'm sure all government agencies will be given an exemption, which is usually the case with onerous, oppressive regulations in our country these days.

[Five Seasons]

This EPA (Economic Persecution Agency) is going to be the biggest player in this administration's tyrannical agenda over the next two years.

Meanwhile, ISIS will be burning human bodies to keep warm.

Bahajajhahah

I forget VJP, what's your profession?

You probably don't believe in global warming either do you? I have 10 years in environmental compliance and a bs in environmental engineering and until you understand "the environment" you need check your facts.

Furthermore, contrary to popular belief most environmental legislation has come from republicans.

CERCLA, RCRA, clean water and clean air acts, ghg caps and reporting. DHS CFATS reporting. All republican.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Belo

[Mr VJP]

Belo, if what you say is accurate, why is it NOBODY is calling it global warming anymore? Since the scientific record cannot verify any warming trend caused by any unnatural influence, they have now started to call it climate change to avoid the questions.

The EPA is currently an agency that is being administered by eco-fascists and Leftists that are determine to hurt businesses as much as possible, because they believe capitalism and the free market are the cause of all of the world's pollution and problems.

Since you chose that profession, I'm not at all surprised to hear your opinion supports them.

[virgil]

Oh boy, this is the part where this thread gets derailed into three pages of science-denial.  Belo, don't get baited into it.

[Mr VJP]

Junk science denial is a good thing

 

[virgil]

Oh, there's a shocker- the 'junk science' defense.

[philoshop]

A little regulatory oversight has been, and still is, a good thing in many respects. What's currently happening within the sphere of government-imposed regulation is not oversight for the public good. In the case of the EPA, it's the furtherance of certain lifestyle choices and belief systems held by a few, at the expense of the well-being of many.

[Five Seasons]

Oh boy, this is the part where this thread gets derailed into three pages of science-denial. Belo, don't get baited into it.

Junk science denial is a good thing

I won't say anything further. Mostly because he didn't even answer my question.

[Mr VJP]

A little regulatory oversight has been, and still is, a good thing in many respects. What's currently happening within the sphere of government-imposed regulation is not oversight for the public good. In the case of the EPA, it's the furtherance of certain lifestyle choices and belief systems held by a few, at the expense of the well-being of many.

 

 

I think that sums it up best.  Philoshop, you don't have a BS in Environmental Engineering do you?

That's probably why you can see the farce in this wood stove regulation.

[Five Seasons]

A little regulatory oversight has been, and still is, a good thing in many respects. What's currently happening within the sphere of government-imposed regulation is not oversight for the public good. In the case of the EPA, it's the furtherance of certain lifestyle choices and belief systems held by a few, at the expense of the well-being of many.

That is simply untrue. Those opinions are not held by a few. The reason you can start eating the fish from Lake Erie and Ontario is the direct result of this. Those acts crushed businesses, but to most it was the right thing to do.

Do me a favor, get a job where you can travel to India and China where they don't give a flying flock about the environment and favor the almighty dollar. Where it's so bad you can barely breath. Then we can grab a beer together and share stories. How about we just let BP off the hook too?

Trust me when I say there are indeed some silly and dated regulations. Do an Annual GHG report for a research lab or read the regs within a title V permit and you'd agree.

Call it what you want, if it's a furtherance of a lifestyle choice then I'm glad to be a part of it. We only have one earth and one chance. We can live better and smarter, your stubbornness to dump motor oil in the woods and burn trash and tires "because you can" is unsettling.

Ashamed and surprised to see this from hunters of all people.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Belo

[Mr VJP]

Nobel Laureate Friedrich August von Hayek (1899-1992): "Ever since the beginning of modern science, the best minds have recognized that 'the range of acknowledged ignorance will grow with the advance of science.' Unfortunately, the popular effect of this scientific advance has been a belief, seemingly shared by many scientists, that the range of our ignorance is steadily diminishing and that we can therefore aim at more comprehensive and deliberate control of all human activities. It is for this reason that those intoxicated by the advance of knowledge so often become the enemies of freedom."

[nyantler]

LOL.. I refuse to even entertain a conversation with someone that gives any credence to the global warming farce.

As far as I can tell environmental engineers spend all of their careers searching for any "environmental crisis" that might help justify the unnecessary need for environmental engineers.

[jjb4900]

when I was a kid I remember the "ozone layer" was a hot topic.........whatever happened to it, is it still there?

[Mr VJP]

I remember when we were told all we needed to do to stop most air pollution was switch to unleaded gas in our cars.

 

[nyantler]

when I was a kid I remember the "ozone layer" was a hot topic.........whatever happened to it, is it still there?

That "crisis" ran it's course... a new crisis had to be invented. Without a major environmental crisis always at hand the EPA would have nothing to do.

[philoshop]

This article is focused around the looming regulatory overreach regarding e-cigarettes, but it gets to the core of overreach in general.

An interesting read:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/397504/lifestyle-so-good-its-mandatory-kevin-d-williamson

[Five Seasons]

when I was a kid I remember the "ozone layer" was a hot topic.........whatever happened to it, is it still there?

Are you freaking kidding me right now? We banned cfc's. The ozone healed itself. Your ignorance is astonishing. Did you not notice how hard or expensive R22 is?

For goodness sake the replacements to cfc's were invented in honeywell's buffalo research lab. I worked with those brilliant men and woman for 5 years... But hey I guess you know it all.

Are you in denial that Lake Erie and the ohio river caught on fire? Was love canal a fake too?

I said I wouldn't come back in here but denial of the ozone layer is just a whole new low for you.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Belo

[Five Seasons]

I remember when we were told all we needed to do to stop most air pollution was switch to unleaded gas in our cars.

You do know leaded gasoline was also causing cancer and health effects at extremely alarming rates right?

Why do you guys with little to zero science or engineering background think you even have a clue?

[Two Track]

So, when the law takes effect, who is going to remote areas of Alaska, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Montana, etc. to take away their heat source and perhaps their means to cook food?

 

How about the Amish?  Are they exempt by reason of religious practices?

 

Every farmer I knew growing up had a fireplace and/or woodstove.  When weather gets bad, you just don't know if they can bring in a truck with your oil or propane to heat your house and cook.  Have seen lots of farms with private dirt roads that you have to travel on to get to the farm house.

 

Are fireplaces and campfires next on the list?

 

To me it seems like they are pushing to keep everyone using petroleum products.

[jjb4900]

So, when the law takes effect, who is going to remote areas of Alaska, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Montana, etc. to take away their heat source and perhaps their means to cook food?

 

How about the Amish?  Are they exempt by reason of religious practices?

 

Every farmer I knew growing up had a fireplace and/or woodstove.  When weather gets bad, you just don't know if they can bring in a truck with your oil or propane to heat your house and cook.  Have seen lots of farms with private dirt roads that you have to travel on to get to the farm house.

 

Are fireplaces and campfires next on the list?

 

To me it seems like they are pushing to keep everyone using petroleum products.

I don't think the law affects current stoves already in use...just the newly manufactured ones.

[jjb4900]

You do know leaded gasoline was also causing cancer and health effects at extremely alarming rates right?

Why do you guys with little to zero science or engineering background think you even have a clue?

while I don't or can't doubt your knowledge of the things of which you speak, were you even alive or even remotely old enough to have played a part in when they banned leaded gasoline, R22 or CFCs?

[philoshop]

That is simply untrue. Those opinions are not held by a few. The reason you can start eating the fish from Lake Erie and Ontario is the direct result of this. Those acts crushed businesses, but to most it was the right thing to do.

Do me a favor, get a job where you can travel to India and China where they don't give a flying flock about the environment and favor the almighty dollar. Where it's so bad you can barely breath. Then we can grab a beer together and share stories. How about we just let BP off the hook too?

Trust me when I say there are indeed some silly and dated regulations. Do an Annual GHG report for a research lab or read the regs within a title V permit and you'd agree.

Call it what you want, if it's a furtherance of a lifestyle choice then I'm glad to be a part of it. We only have one earth and one chance. We can live better and smarter, your stubbornness to dump motor oil in the woods and burn trash and tires "because you can" is unsettling.

Ashamed and surprised to see this from hunters of all people.

 

Like I said, a little reasonable regulation is a good thing and it's helped to clean up the waters of this country in a huge way, and we're all better off for it. No one here is likely to argue that point. The small businesses that were 'crushed' along the way were simply bought up by bigger businesses, then even bigger businesses that now have the political power to do what they want regardless of what anyone says anyway.

 

Forget about traveling to India and China, there are plenty of examples right here. Densely populated areas in this country have dirty air, dirty water, dirty streets and dirty people that the EPA doesn't care about. It's a lot easier for them to go after somebody with a wood stove in Geneva NY or Pocahantas IA than it is to go after the millions of car owners in Los Angeles.

 

I don't dump my oil in the woods, and I only burn properly seasoned wood in my stove.

 

I'm not sure what being a hunter has to do with pointing out dysfunctions in government.

 

Since you have an education in the environmental sciences let me ask directly: How much air pollution do you think will be prevented by these regulations? How many people will benefit compared to those whose lifestyles are negatively impacted?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You do know leaded gasoline was also causing cancer and health effects at extremely alarming rates right?

Why do you guys with little to zero science or engineering background think you even have a clue?

Now Belo, are you going to sit there and try to assert that the manipulation of statistics and information hasn't taken place by those who benefit from what ever environmental crisis of the day? Everything certainly isn't all blue sky and roses but don't you think your emotional position on these topics isn't driven by the fact that you make you living in that market (IIRC).

 

As far as CFC's the current refrigerant being used is so less efficient that the energy consumption for the same tonnage of cooling is much higher. That energy doesn't grow on trees. I have not seen a study showing an  evaluation comparing the environment impact of that trade off. Energy usage is higher in operation, physical equipment is larger thus using more resources in manufacture and requiring larger areas to house the equipment. There are trade offs. I just question motivation when the ones blowing the warning horns are the ones that profit from the danger.

[Five Seasons]

while I don't or can't doubt your knowledge of the things of which you speak, were you even alive or even remotely old enough to have played a part in when they banned leaded gasoline, R22 or CFCs?

Do you need to be alive to know history? You all believe the bible and never met Jesus right? A good education goes a long way. And by the way cfc's and r22 are the same thing and the issues was in the 80's while I was alive.

Like I said, a little reasonable regulation is a good thing and it's helped to clean up the waters of this country in a huge way, and we're all better off for it. No one here is likely to argue that point. The small businesses that were 'crushed' along the way were simply bought up by bigger businesses, then even bigger businesses that now have the political power to do what they want regardless of what anyone says anyway.

Forget about traveling to India and China, there are plenty of examples right here. Densely populated areas in this country have dirty air, dirty water, dirty streets and dirty people that the EPA doesn't care about. It's a lot easier for them to go after somebody with a wood stove in Geneva NY or Pocahantas IA than it is to go after the millions of car owners in Los Angeles.

I don't dump my oil in the woods, and I only burn properly seasoned wood in my stove.

I'm not sure what being a hunter has to do with pointing out dysfunctions in government.

Since you have an education in the environmental sciences let me ask directly: How much air pollution do you think will be prevented by these regulations? How many people will benefit compared to those whose lifestyles are negatively impacted?

You are incorrect in thinking the EPA doesn't care. I've applied for 5 air permits in 3 states. All cities have air regulations related to opacity, smell, HAPs and VOCs that go above and beyond the EPA. Think of them as ARs for companies. So your wood stove isn't going anywhere but the manufacturers are going to have to change. California has done it with cars and motors. The national government have put in regulations for the reduction of emissions in cars. These are all urban examples; should I keep going?

I was raised on wood burning. Never had a furnace till 18. I'm not arguing this rule, just that we need to always be working on getting better. What set me off was the ignorance.

Now Belo, are you going to sit there and try to assert that the manipulation of statistics and information hasn't taken place by those who benefit from what ever environmental crisis of the day? Everything certainly isn't all blue sky and roses but don't you think your emotional position on these topics isn't driven by the fact that you make you living in that market (IIRC).

As far as CFC's the current refrigerant being used is so less efficient that the energy consumption for the same tonnage of cooling is much higher. That energy doesn't grow on trees. I have not seen a study showing an evaluation comparing the environment impact of that trade off. Energy usage is higher in operation, physical equipment is larger thus using more resources in manufacture and requiring larger areas to house the equipment. There are trade offs. I just question motivation when the ones blowing the warning horns are the ones that profit from the danger.

The efficiency issues with the new refrigerants have absolutely hurt the environment. Global warming has gotten worse... If it's real of course. Honeywell is currently working on low gwp refrigerants. The ozone layer protects us. Without it we die. It's that black and white. There is nothing fake about it. The imagery was real.

Do you not believe that oil and gas can also skew data? They did it in the early 1900s with leaded gas. Pay anyone enough and he will tell the public what you want them to.

I work for the largest industrial manufacturer in the world. I do not benefit from regulations. But I do believe in science. Baby Jesus isn't going to cure my type 1 Diabeties, but my insulin pump will keep me alive. I thank God for putting smart men and woman on this earth with the sense and reasoning to protect us and to invent these modern marvels.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Belo