1 and done.

[nyantler]

Being forced to pass on a buck of a lifetime is a good thing with OBR imo. Next year, they might think a little harder on shooting bucky jr. when its the firat buck that walks by. Tons of other states have done this, most recently IN and KY, and their hunters are still living and participating just fine. Compare that to even the crummy poll I created where more than half of the people are reducing or majorly changing their hunting habits due to the two week rule.

If they do shoot bucky jr. and they are happy with it, then I am as well. Remember only 5k hunters shoot a second buck out of how many hundreds of thousands of hunters.

I'm inclined to agree with you if we're talking about bucks only... my point is more to overall deer management efforts based on where we are at this point. If we were starting at "0" I would be totally in favor of OBR, but we're starting behind the eight ball... I'm not sure OBR will even get us to "0"... I think the answer is far more complicated than that at this point. I liken it to trying to fix a rusty old car from the junkyard by just putting on a coat of paint without fixing all that is wrong with the car under the hood. Once the car is completely restored maintaining the new car is much easier. Once our management issues are repaired then OBR might be a great maintenance tool.

[nyantler]

You are overblowing this out of proportion. People shoot lots of does overall as a hunter group. Just not as many as the DEC wants, despite us not knowing that number should be.

 

Everyone that I know in-person in this thread being vocal about OBR or taking a look at the way we manage buck tags, took does last year IN THE WMUS affected. That's not broken. What's broken is the system and the DEC and that's what people have a vested interest in resolving. People in large have the right mindset (meaning intent), but its butting heads with an agency that isn't willing to dance.

I think you just made my point... until the objective is explained to hunters and the solutions start to make sense... OBR will simply be an additional problem to be juggled in an already confusing management plan by the DEC. Throwing one more wrench in the works doesn't make sense to me at this point. No one really has been told what, where and why we have a management problem... or how any of the recent changes are going to fix those problems... we need to establish that first. Then maybe a viable solution with hunter input can be entertained.

[phade]

I'm inclined to agree with you if we're talking about bucks only... my point is more to overall deer management efforts based on where we are at this point. If we were starting at "0" I would be totally in favor of OBR, but we're starting behind the eight ball... I'm not sure OBR will even get us to "0"... I think the answer is far more complicated than that at this point. I liken it to trying to fix a rusty old car from the junkyard by just putting on a coat of paint without fixing all that is wrong with the car under the hood. Once the car is completely restored maintaining the new car is much easier. Once our management issues are repaired then OBR might be a great maintenance tool.

 

 

The states that have most recently implemented OBR were not in maintenance mode...they were fixing the same problems we're in now. Bad doe management, bad buck management, bad management overall, etc. KY and IN.

Edited September 4, 2015 by phade

[phade]

I think you just made my point... until the objective is explained to hunters and the solutions start to make sense... OBR will simply be an additional problem to be juggled in an already confusing management plan by the DEC. Throwing one more wrench in the works doesn't make sense to me at this point. No one really has been told what, where and why we have a management problem... or how any of the recent changes are going to fix those problems... we need to establish that first. Then maybe a viable solution with hunter input can be entertained.

 

 

In all honesty I don't the numbers change the plan of attack for righting the ship. The problem with not having the data is that nobody can attain what the DEC wants.

[nyantler]

It seems like we have an entrenched hunter culture that now considers that killing does is not hunting. How do you unravel that? Today when you want to tell anyone about a deer that you shot, you had better not be talking about a doe. And if the score isn't something significant, it is like it never happened. That is what has happened to our hunters. And now that attitude is so deeply engrained in our hunting, that it is beginning to become impossible to manage deer populations. The primary tool of management, the hunter, is broken. We have always been buck oriented in our definition of success, but now it has gotten to the point where hunters are refusing to shoot does. The DEC has to face that mentality. And yet the mentality persists and grows with all these grand schemes for increasing buck numbers and antler sizes and trophy opportunities. We can't even manage the herd size and yet we are still obsessed only with buck management issues. I don't think this is really going to end well. We are tolerated only because we are necessary to keeping deer numbers in check. We are going to have to begin doing our job.

I think you're more right than some may think... we tend to think that most hunters have the best interest of deer in mind because some of us are surrounded by hunting buddies that have similar mindsets as ours. But, I think the truth is that outside of our inner circles there is a hunting culture more like you described. My involvement in deer hunting has me talking to hunters from all over the state and I find myself cringing when I hear most hunters talk about their approach to deer hunting. I am well aware that I am in the minority when it comes my approach to doing my part as a conservation minded hunter... unfortunately I have seen more of the old school mentality of my fathers generation when it comes to acceptance of true deer management ideals. I don't come across many hunters that see themselves as management tools... I see more consumer type attitudes than conservation attitudes... thankfully I also see a trend growing towards more educated, conservation minded hunters, but it is small and moving way too slowly... and even they are skewed a bit by the grow bigger buck frenzy that has made it's way into the hunter population.

 

Until we change the old school mindsets there will continue to be the tug of war that's going on now.

[nyantler]

The states that have most recently implemented OBR were not in maintenance mode...they were fixing the same problems we're in now. Bad doe management, bad buck management, bad management overall, etc. KY and IN.

My only contention is that I truly do not believe hunter mentality is not the same in those states... NY hunters are as difficult to manage as the deer in NY... lol

Edited September 4, 2015 by nyantler

[Carbonelement]

people that do not want to shoot does are simply lazy where I hunt...I agree it is work to drag gut and butcher a deer, but it is all part of the sport.  I cant stand it, I hunt west chester, the dink killing cap of NY. Just look at all the post.... and i will say it, its not hard to shoot a deer with a bow I love to see these guys say any deer with a bow is a trophy LOL these bows can shoot 60-80 yards all day long.  Open your eyes and let the younger bucks walk, take a few does.  I say if the buck is not going on the wall he gets a pass

[G-Man]

Here is the root of the problem, most people don't just kill to kill, they full their freezer and stop. Now if they wanted to have hunters kill more Doe in areas and went to an earn a buck there with a collection station for all the unwanted doe,so they would be used that might accomplish something.

Deer management and now these new buck management zone are to big and cannot be effectively manages as is. This will make it worse as access is limited in areas and un limited in others ,so areas with access decrease numbers the same unit may have a huge increase in numbers as no one can hun there.

[Five Seasons]

Quote: "Some action is better than no action they say."

Lol.....I hear that a lot on this forum. Never mind if the action is significant or likely to make any difference in the goals or cause any problems .... Right or wrong, just do something!

 

it's also the basis behind the safe act. It's all smoke and mirrors and vote grabbing for the ignorant. Look we did something... regardless if it will really change anything. All the recent shootings in theaters and camera crews. pistols. Not a single one more than 7 rounds. Yet we ignore our nation's mental health issue.

 

[Five Seasons]

Other than the lawless Amish in Ohio - their dnr is intolerant of cheaters... One buck rule here would still have guys carrying 3 buck tags and shooting as many dinks and fawns as they could fling lead at. We have a culture problem here- not regulations. If your hopes are the dec improving hunting, let alone mature buck numbers, please wake up

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

there's very few states that don't have that problem. Come down south where you don't even tag your deer, but we have ARs. You can bait, but not within site of hunter. You can hunt with dogs. It's a mess and nobody enforces anything.

 

[Five Seasons]

Being forced to pass on a buck of a lifetime is a good thing with OBR imo. Next year, they might think a little harder on shooting bucky jr. when its the firat buck that walks by. Tons of other states have done this, most recently IN and KY, and their hunters are still living and participating just fine. Compare that to even the crummy poll I created where more than half of the people are reducing or majorly changing their hunting habits due to the two week rule.

If they do shoot bucky jr. and they are happy with it, then I am as well. Remember only 5k hunters shoot a second buck out of how many hundreds of thousands of hunters.

 

you're right and at the same time the flip side is tag soup. Most will say, well good then. Fill your freezer with doe. But I have no problem with a 2.5 archery kill. It's no easy task for 90% of hunters. So passing it is a decision that needs to be made based on what a hunter determines to be success.

 

My fear, and it's my pessimistic attitude, is that the 2.5 doesn't get tagged in case mr. big does come along or even without a tag you shoot mr. big and worry about the tag later.

 

[Five Seasons]

people that do not want to shoot does are simply lazy where I hunt...I agree it is work to drag gut and butcher a deer, but it is all part of the sport.  I cant stand it, I hunt west chester, the dink killing cap of NY. Just look at all the post.... and i will say it, its not hard to shoot a deer with a bow I love to see these guys say any deer with a bow is a trophy LOL these bows can shoot 60-80 yards all day long.  Open your eyes and let the younger bucks walk, take a few does.  I say if the buck is not going on the wall he gets a pass

 

60 to 80 yard bow shots in NY huh?

 

[upstatehunter]

If the DEC wants more does killed then why are they denying people of doe tags..... I have gone 2-3 years without getting a doe tag for where I hunt

[BellR]

Because the only want the population reduced in certain areas, not across the state.

[upstatehunter]

And that is why I'm against one buck rule and restrictions. I'm denied a doe tag so now I have to hope to see a buck and possibly a buck of certain size. I'm not all for going 2-3 years without getting a deer especially with the cost of the license and so on. I believe it costed me $119 to be able to harvest this year. Crazy in my book especially with a chance of killing nothing. Let's face it, sightings of does and bucks favor towards the does

[WNYBuckHunter]

And that is why I'm against one buck rule and restrictions. I'm denied a doe tag so now I have to hope to see a buck and possibly a buck of certain size. I'm not all for going 2-3 years without getting a deer especially with the cost of the license and so on. I believe it costed me $119 to be able to harvest this year. Crazy in my book especially with a chance of killing nothing. Let's face it, sightings of does and bucks favor towards the does

 

Theres lots of state land in areas where DMPs are available. Expand your hunting a bit. If deer populations in your area are so low you cant take doe, do you think taking 2 bucks each year is doing you any favors? How will you like it when they put ARs in your area?

[A Sportsman]

It's easy to say "expand where you hunt" so that you can go to an area where you can shoot a doe. But that's not exactly wine and roses for a lot of people. My dad and uncle have been hunting the same span of mountains in the Catskills since 1968. My brother and pair of cousins still carry out that tradition with my dad and uncle (been almost 50 yrs). And we hope our kids will keep it alive when we die. With OBR, if I shoot a buck on long island with bow, I will not have a tag to hunt the Catskills. Sure I can go hunt somewhere else but it would be a darn shame. And for what? So a handful of "second" bucks do not killed over the 60,000 acres of state land that we hunt.

I just can't see the one size fits all approach of OBR being the right way to go.

And I see westchester county mentioned above as another place in need of OBR. Another county that perennially produces record book bucks. Is it me?

[WNYBuckHunter]

It's easy to say "expand where you hunt" so that you can go to an area where you can shoot a doe. But that's not exactly wine and roses for a lot of people. My dad and uncle have been hunting the same span of mountains in the Catskills since 1968. My brother and pair of cousins still carry out that tradition with my dad and uncle (been almost 50 yrs). And we hope our kids will keep it alive when we die. With OBR, if I shoot a buck on long island with bow, I will not have a tag to hunt the Catskills. Sure I can go hunt somewhere else but it would be a darn shame. And for what? So a handful of "second" bucks do not killed over the 60,000 acres of state land that we hunt.

I just can't see the one size fits all approach of OBR being the right way to go.

And I see westchester county mentioned above as another place in need of OBR. Another county that perennially produces record book bucks. Is it me?

 

Its not about saving a few thousand "second bucks" go back in the thread, its been explained a few times.

 

Im not saying people should give up where they hunt now, but if they really want to take another deer for their freezer, then go to where the deer are. You never know, you just might find somewhere you really like to hunt thats new. Ive had to do it quite a few times before, it can be challenging, but thats half the fun of hunting.

[Doc]

I think you're more right than some may think... we tend to think that most hunters have the best interest of deer in mind because some of us are surrounded by hunting buddies that have similar mindsets as ours. But, I think the truth is that outside of our inner circles there is a hunting culture more like you described. My involvement in deer hunting has me talking to hunters from all over the state and I find myself cringing when I hear most hunters talk about their approach to deer hunting. I am well aware that I am in the minority when it comes my approach to doing my part as a conservation minded hunter... unfortunately I have seen more of the old school mentality of my fathers generation when it comes to acceptance of true deer management ideals. I don't come across many hunters that see themselves as management tools... I see more consumer type attitudes than conservation attitudes... thankfully I also see a trend growing towards more educated, conservation minded hunters, but it is small and moving way too slowly... and even they are skewed a bit by the grow bigger buck frenzy that has made it's way into the hunter population.

 

Until we change the old school mindsets there will continue to be the tug of war that's going on now.

Here's a very frequent quote that I hear over and over from those that are "big buck hunters". "Most hunters never give the rutting big bucks a chance to come through because they are busy shooting the does that the bucks are following". These people will refuse to shoot the does because they are convinced that there may be a big buck following them up. Those guys are so hung up on bucks/antlers that they will never shoot a doe for fear that they will mess up the opportunity at the possible buck following that doe or group of does. Now I don't want to start a great debate on that little pearl of wisdom, but remarks such as that show a definite mindset or reluctance to shoot does because of the big buck/antler fixation. How widespread is that attitude? I have no data (nor does anyone else), but I hear and read those sentiments quite frequently such that I believe it is not an insignificant number of hunters. So, is it any wonder that it is hard to get cooperation from hunters to thin the doe numbers. There is a need for an educational campaign among hunters and those that are entering the ranks of hunting. Maybe we even need a bit of a de-programing campaign to set the hunter antler fetish in its proper perspective and convince hunters that it is in their best interests to take does.

 

[phade]

Here's a very frequent quote that I hear over and over from those that are "big buck hunters". "Most hunters never give the rutting big bucks a chance to come through because they are busy shooting the does that the bucks are following". These people will refuse to shoot the does because they are convinced that there may be a big buck following them up. Those guys are so hung up on bucks/antlers that they will never shoot a doe for fear that they will mess up the opportunity at the possible buck following that doe or group of does. Now I don't want to start a great debate on that little pearl of wisdom, but remarks such as that show a definite mindset or reluctance to shoot does because of the big buck/antler fixation. How widespread is that attitude? I have no data (nor does anyone else), but I hear and read those sentiments quite frequently such that I believe it is not an insignificant number of hunters. So, is it any wonder that it is hard to get cooperation from hunters to thin the doe numbers. There is a need for an educational campaign among hunters and those that are entering the ranks of hunting. Maybe we even need a bit of a de-programing campaign to set the hunter antler fetish in its proper perspective and convince hunters that it is in their best interests to take does.

 

 

If I see a hot doe during the rut and there is no buck behind her trailing - I am going to ANCHOR her to the ground with an arrow.

 

Her being dead right at my stand is like having instant bait for the rest of the day.

[Doc]

If I see a hot doe during the rut and there is no buck behind her trailing - I am going to ANCHOR her to the ground with an arrow.

 

Her being dead right at my stand is like having instant bait for the rest of the day.

Like I said, I have no interest in debating the statement, but it does show the mentality that is adding to the DEC's inability to manage harvests.

[upstatehunter]

I'm on the same boat....we have a tradition to go to 7m every year for the rifle opener and camp.... if I kill a buck here in 6k I then have to hope for a 7m doe tag....if I don't get it, then my family get together won't happen and i just don't like someone else raining on others parade.....I went last year to see what was left for doe tags around southern tier gun opener and they were places I would have to travel 2 1/2 hours away for

[phade]

Like I said, I have no interest in debating the statement, but it does show the mentality that is adding to the DEC's inability to manage harvests.

 

I will call you out on that wide brush stroke.

 

How many antlerless did YOU shoot in the affected WMUs? I shot four this past season. Four. Not one, not two, not three....but FOUR. Bow, gun, and MZ. And I am not unique. My phone fills up with tons of people who lay down the does in these WMUs, even in bow.

 

Debate all you want, you can go pound sand if I choose to pass on a doe in the first week of Nov. this season. I killed more than my "required" contribution to get the job done and will likely do so again this year. My mentality is precisely what the DEC needs - one that gets the job done, yet demands more of an organization that is inept and one that needs to work toward not being so. Compare that to people who complain, yet pass off everything as not being "the way things were" and displaying fear-mongering of taking a buck tag away to better manage a resource as if some social liberty is being compromised to the detriment of the old guard - and basically refusing to acknowledge that the management discipline is about as far from a fad as one can get. Quite frankly, its those people with their head in the sand that slow down the ability for adaptations that should be discussed or considered given the conditions. Add in the mix an agency who shoves it down our throats, and it's a pretty bad spot for people with my mentaility. You and the DEC make great partners in their current state. I like to think I'd be a great partner with what the DEC should be.

[A Sportsman]

WNY buck hunter, If I shoot a buck in 1C I would be done with bucks for the season. And Since there is no doe harvest allowed in 3a, and never will be, I will not be able to hunt deer there. With the low amount of hunters, let alone successful hunters in 3a, the one buck rule will do virtually nothing in that area. So basically i will be giving up opportunity, in my case in the area that I grew to love the hunting tradition in, for no reason at all. Explain how that makes sense. Maybe I am slow on the uptake?

I gun hunt on tens of thousands of acres in areas where virtually no one goes, yet somehow I'm supposed to start going somewhere else in another part of the state to look for a doe? That's what my gun season is reduced to?

I realize I could save my buck tag by not using it for bow. But we have a 4 month bow season on Long Island. That is something that is unreasonable to ask me to do.

[phade]

I find it reasonable. You get the choice. Just like i would.