1 and done.

[phade]

Cant have a single post without calling one rule change a magic bullet, or a cure all can you? I know you arent ignorant enough to really believe that anyone that knows anything about deer management would think there is such a thing. Nobody said any state is perfect, just that some other states are alot better than NY in the way they manage deer. But just keep blowing what is said out of proportion, twisting words and statements so you can try to justify your opinions.

 

Also, you complain about proven management practices, you complain about new ideas, you say the DEC has no idea what its doing. Its gotten to the point of being just plain funny.

 

x2.

 

I think the MO is simply to complain, be a devil's advocate, and just be a stick in the mud so much that any appreciable discussion goes nowhere because that is the desired destination, when clearly, we're at a crossroads where doing nothing should no longer be an option on the table. Even self-pitched ideas are talked into circles.

Edited September 10, 2015 by phade

[nyantler]

Cant have a single post without calling one rule change a magic bullet, or a cure all can you? I know you arent ignorant enough to really believe that anyone that knows anything about deer management would think there is such a thing. Nobody said any state is perfect, just that some other states are alot better than NY in the way they manage deer. But just keep blowing what is said out of proportion, twisting words and statements so you can try to justify your opinions.

 

Also, you complain about proven management practices, you complain about new ideas, you say the DEC has no idea what its doing. Its gotten to the point of being just plain funny.

The problem isn't that there isn't any magic bullets... there certainly are. The problem is getting hunters to understand and get on board. What works in other states may or may not work in NY. The factors Doc mentioned in his second paragraph of his last post is right on point. Should we try what other states are doing? Maybe... but to say it works there so it should work here falls short of common sense. 20 years ago issuing more doe tags was the answer... that hasn't really worked out so well has it? Every state has to make a plan based on what is going on in that state... nobody in the DEC has really told us what is going on OR how their plan will fix it. We need to start there first!

[Trial153]

That's it in a nutshell for me doc. For one, These states do not have the biggest city in the country in them. How many hunters from nyc and Long Island flock to all over upstate each year. What percentage of Catskills and adk hunters actually live there? Very very few. To not take things like this into account is shortsighted in my view.

Brace yourself. I don't want you to go in to shock or cardiac arrest when I let you in on a little secret.

The world doesn't revolve around NYC and Long Island.

For example .....

Edited September 10, 2015 by Trial153

[WNYBuckHunter]

The problem isn't that there isn't any magic bullets... there certainly are. The problem is getting hunters to understand and get on board. What works in other states may or may not work in NY. The factors Doc mentioned in his second paragraph of his last post is right on point. Should we try what other states are doing? Maybe... but to say it works there so it should work here falls short of common sense. 20 years ago issuing more doe tags was the answer... that hasn't really worked out so well has it? Every state has to make a plan based on what is going on in that state... nobody in the DEC has really told us what is going on OR how their plan will fix it. We need to start there first!

 

Come on NYAntler, go back and look at what Doc has said multiple times. Magic bullet (not plural), cure all, etc. He always acts like any suggested change is being proposed to be THE single fix for all of NY's management woes. Thats nothing but a facility that he puts out there to justify the point hes trying to make.

 

20 years ago they upped doe tags because previously they issued few in order to bring the deer numbers up, then they wanted to drop them. Did they do a perfect job? No, but it was better than what would have happened if they left it the way it was. Heck, we obviously still have areas with too many deer despite raising the doe tag numbers in those areas.

 

These days, its pretty obvious to me that the DEC doesnt have a flipping clue what to do, and not changing anything is not going to do any good. I would rather see changes that make sense, and have been proven to work in similar circumstances, put into place, than what the DEC has been doing as of late.

[phade]

The problem isn't that there isn't any magic bullets... there certainly are. The problem is getting hunters to understand and get on board. What works in other states may or may not work in NY. The factors Doc mentioned in his second paragraph of his last post is right on point. Should we try what other states are doing? Maybe... but to say it works there so it should work here falls short of common sense. 20 years ago issuing more doe tags was the answer... that hasn't really worked out so well has it? Every state has to make a plan based on what is going on in that state... nobody in the DEC has really told us what is going on OR how their plan will fix it. We need to start there first!

 

This post is confusing to me. Hunters can't understand and get on board until the info is there to do so. The DEC shoving this down our throats is the lowest hole in the bucket. It is NOT hunter attitudes, hunter mindset, or anything of that nature. You can't expect to get buy-in when there is nothing pitched to sell. It's shot through a cannon, instead, and we take what we are given.

 

Common sense dictates peer accepted models as the first things to look at and consider when trying to resolve a problem that's not unique - and much to the people who yell otherwise, our problem nor our stakeholders are unique. Not too many recent antlerless-only seasons implemented in archery (where gun seasons also exist) around the nation to correct a supposed dire straits population issue. I have on the other hand, seen OTC, DMP or doe tag management, reduced cost tags, landowner incentives, moves to OBR or shifts on when bucks tags can be filled, mz seasons set outside of other deer seasons, and so on and so forth.

 

I haven't yet seen any agency that says, "Whoah, doe numbers are out of control in these areas. We know what to do! Let's enact an antlerless archery season, that'll really knock them down. And, if not, which they won't because we aren't telling them what numbers need to be shot, we'll stick guns in bow season instead of adding opportunity for sportsmen."

Edited September 10, 2015 by phade

[Five Seasons]

I guess the old "grass is greener" syndrome can apply to hunting too .... lol. Perhaps our deer management should just consist of blindly copying all the other states. But then since none of them have all the same answers to all the same problems, how do we decide which one has it right?...lol.

 

Which ones of all those "perfectly managed" states has the same human population densities, hunting pressures, variety of terrain, land use, and habitat, and extreme weather zones that we have? 

 

No I am not saying that there are not some ideas that we can successfully borrow from other states. But I also am not ready to assume that just because some other state has adopted any of these programs, that it automatically is some magic bullet for NY. I'm sure there is a bit more to management than just copying other states. But then, I am no better than any of the other armchair game managers on this site. We all do a heck of a job of game management when we get in front of our computers......right?

 

hunting a few other states in my life, i think the biggest difference is hunters per square mile. If I remember right I think NY is #1 or very close to it. Pair that with the fact that down south, owning anything less than 100 acres is considered small. In NY if you have 5 you own a lot. Deer down south are smaller. You need to shoot more, but the seasons are longer. The hunters a bit lazier but overall more relaxed. Hunting is a way of life, but rarely are hunters so pitted against each other as it seams they are here. Although I believe that has to do with land access being much easier. The biggest issue the south has is dogs. There's a good 50/50 split on running dogs. And when you are impacted by them, you'll quickly join the anti-dog crowd.

[jjb4900]

hunting a few other states in my life, i think the biggest difference is hunters per square mile. If I remember right I think NY is #1 or very close to it. Pair that with the fact that down south, owning anything less than 100 acres is considered small. In NY if you have 5 you own a lot. Deer down south are smaller. You need to shoot more, but the seasons are longer. The hunters a bit lazier but overall more relaxed. Hunting is a way of life, but rarely are hunters so pitted against each other as it seams they are here. Although I believe that has to do with land access being much easier. The biggest issue the south has is dogs. There's a good 50/50 split on running dogs. And when you are impacted by them, you'll quickly join the anti-dog crowd.

I would love to hunt deer with dogs, I've seen video and it looks pretty exciting............but, with that being said, I'm not too sure I would want it in my backyard.

[Five Seasons]

I would love to hunt deer with dogs, I've seen video and it looks pretty exciting............but, with that being said, I'm not too sure I would want it in my backyard.

 

it is fun, but the bad apples who let their dogs run your property ruin it. My understanding is that dogs can run posted property without consequence (owner plays dumb). tell me that wouldn't piss you off? Full draw and then out hops the neighbors dog...

 

[nyantler]

This post is confusing to me. Hunters can't understand and get on board until the info is there to do so. The DEC shoving this down our throats is the lowest hole in the bucket. It is NOT hunter attitudes, hunter mindset, or anything of that nature. You can't expect to get buy-in when there is nothing pitched to sell. It's shot through a cannon, instead, and we take what we are given.

 

Common sense dictates peer accepted models as the first things to look at and consider when trying to resolve a problem that's not unique - and much to the people who yell otherwise, our problem nor our stakeholders are unique. Not too many recent antlerless-only seasons implemented in archery (where gun seasons also exist) around the nation to correct a supposed dire straits population issue. I have on the other hand, seen OTC, DMP or doe tag management, reduced cost tags, landowner incentives, moves to OBR or shifts on when bucks tags can be filled, mz seasons set outside of other deer seasons, and so on and so forth.

 

I haven't yet seen any agency that says, "Whoah, doe numbers are out of control in these areas. We know what to do! Let's enact an antlerless archery season, that'll really knock them down. And, if not, which they won't because we aren't telling them what numbers need to be shot, we'll stick guns in bow season instead of adding opportunity for sportsmen."

Numbers or no numbers.. incentives or no incentives.. hunters aren't going to buy into any program until they know where we are at and understand clearly how any new regulation is going to help get to the objective. You can woulda, coulda, shoulda all day long. But, that's just the way it is. I am not saying it is just the hunters not doing their part, I'm saying they are and will always be reluctant to do their part until the DEC comes up with a good system of informing hunters of the what and why. Until then we will continue with the status quo, ideas with no result. Again, you young guys have to stop relating NY to other states like it's the same. It's not. For 40 years now I've seen it all come down the pike and still here we are exactly where we were 40 years ago. I'd be willing to bet that if you gave out unlimited doe tags you still wouldn't see any difference in the doe take numbers... what you and I might know needs to be done won't happen with any quick fix any time soon. An entire antlerless season for archery season with no chance for a buck with bow would quickly end bow hunting as we know it and would have a negative effect on hunting... you're smart enough to know that.

[dbHunterNY]

it is fun, but the bad apples who let their dogs run your property ruin it. My understanding is that dogs can run posted property without consequence (owner plays dumb). tell me that wouldn't piss you off? Full draw and then out hops the neighbors dog...

 

 

I've had it happen multiple seasons.  I would be very much against use of dogs during deer season for multiple reasons other than that.  many people run dogs around here after the season for yotes.  I'm more than fine with that.

[phade]

Numbers or no numbers.. incentives or no incentives.. hunters aren't going to buy into any program until they know where we are at and understand clearly how any new regulation is going to help get to the objective. You can woulda, coulda, shoulda all day long. But, that's just the way it is. I am not saying it is just the hunters not doing their part, I'm saying they are and will always be reluctant to do their part until the DEC comes up with a good system of informing hunters of the what and why. Until then we will continue with the status quo, ideas with no result. Again, you young guys have to stop relating NY to other states like it's the same. It's not. For 40 years now I've seen it all come down the pike and still here we are exactly where we were 40 years ago. I'd be willing to bet that if you gave out unlimited doe tags you still wouldn't see any difference in the doe take numbers... what you and I might know needs to be done won't happen with any quick fix any time soon. An entire antlerless season for archery season with no chance for a buck with bow would quickly end bow hunting as we know it and would have a negative effect on hunting... you're smart enough to know that.

 

What problems or demographics are unique to NY that makes it "different"?

[Trial153]

What problems or demographics are unique to NY that makes it "different"?

The incessant narcissism of some of its inhabitants......

[phade]

The incessant narcissism of some of its inhabitants......

 

Check and mate, fine sir.

[Doc]

Cant have a single post without calling one rule change a magic bullet, or a cure all can you? I know you arent ignorant enough to really believe that anyone that knows anything about deer management would think there is such a thing. Nobody said any state is perfect, just that some other states are alot better than NY in the way they manage deer. But just keep blowing what is said out of proportion, twisting words and statements so you can try to justify your opinions.

 

Also, you complain about proven management practices, you complain about new ideas, you say the DEC has no idea what its doing. Its gotten to the point of being just plain funny.

Care to address the discussion rather than simply worrying about how I express myself. I mean that whining in the face of not having anything real to say is getting pretty darn old. My gosh, at least I have opinions and don't have to harp about a few words that seem to sting in your craw. I mean really, if you have something real to add lets hear it, but you people who rave about all these ideas with the zeal of an insurance salesman (sorry insurance salesmen) really shouldn't whine so much when somebody paraphrases your enthusiasm with a few accurate descriptive alternative terms.

 

As to your last paragraph, I'm sorry that I have opinions, and I'm sorry that they rankle you so, but this is a forum where opinions are expressed. Get used to it.

[A Sportsman]

Trial153, who said the world revolves around NYC and Long Island? I was pointing out one facet of ny state hunting that may make it a little different than other states. Nothing more. You seem a little sensitive about downstate hunters thinking the world revolves around them.

[phade]

I've yet to get an understanding of why NY is an enigma compared to other states. We have the same problems and same obstacles as other states. Some are hackled by law/dept. organization, some have high hunter density, some have access issues, some have population issues, and so on and so forth. I've yet to hear, even after much drum beating, that there is one thing that makes NY different that no other state has encountered.

 

This hunter density thing is a joke, too. NYS ranks third overall - crazy right? Until you realize the fourth and fifth spots are held by WI and OH with similar numbers and they're not exactly struggling to manage fundamentals. Oh, but you say NYers are fickle? Ever meet a toothless wonder, pill popping hunter from Scioto Co. Ohio? That "fickle" NYer pales in comparison pretty quickly when it comes to buy-in, engagement, and "doing their part." There are plenty of states with other big cities that have a hunting populous. Kansas City, St. Loius, Detroit, Cleveland/Cinci/Columbus, Pitt...the names go on and on. Is NYC big? Yes, but their hunter ranks pale compared to those in wNY, too.

 

I just don't see much of anything NY faces as being something unique that hasn't been experienced or is being experienced by other states and other states' hunters.

Edited September 10, 2015 by phade

[Trial153]

Trial153, who said the world revolves around NYC and Long Island? I was pointing out one facet of ny state hunting that may make it a little different than other states. Nothing more. You seem a little sensitive about downstate hunters thinking the world revolves around them.

Maybe you need a little reminder as to what you said so I posted it below .

That's it in a nutshell for me doc. For one, These states do not have the biggest city in the country in them. How many hunters from nyc and Long Island flock to all over upstate each year. What percentage of Catskills and adk hunters actually live there? Very very few. To not take things like this into account is shortsighted in my view.

There are many states that have significant influx of hunters from urban and suburban areas from their own states. Furthermore there are many other states that have to even limit non residents to a small percentage of available tags despite the high demand for their resource. These things are in no way limited to NY. And other states have addressed these issues with more success and in more timely fashion the NY.

Th " Flocks " of hunters coming from NYC and Long Island represent about 17% of the states license holders. So to answer your question of " what percentage of Catskills and Adk hunters live there?" .....well the answer is a hell of a lot more then you think. The world doesn't revolve around NYC and Long Island , and neither does NY hunting as most of the license sales come from outside those two areas.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Trial153

[A Sportsman]

You make a valid point regarding the percent of hunters on the whole from metro area. Maybe that was a lousy example. but my point was that ny game managers should take everything into account in setting regs. Not just mimic other states because it worked there.

All that aside, since you had to reiterate your senseless comment it's obvious you do have a bug up your A about downstate hunters. It's ok to admit it.

[Doc]

I've yet to get an understanding of why NY is an enigma compared to other states. We have the same problems and same obstacles as other states. Some are hackled by law/dept. organization, some have high hunter density, some have access issues, some have population issues, and so on and so forth. I've yet to hear, even after much drum beating, that there is one thing that makes NY different that no other state has encountered.

 

This hunter density thing is a joke, too. NYS ranks third overall - crazy right? Until you realize the fourth and fifth spots are held by WI and OH with similar numbers and they're not exactly struggling to manage fundamentals. Oh, but you say NYers are fickle? Ever meet a toothless wonder, pill popping hunter from Scioto Co. Ohio? That "fickle" NYer pales in comparison pretty quickly when it comes to buy-in, engagement, and "doing their part." There are plenty of states with other big cities that have a hunting populous. Kansas City, St. Loius, Detroit, Cleveland/Cinci/Columbus, Pitt...the names go on and on. Is NYC big? Yes, but their hunter ranks pale compared to those in wNY, too.

 

I just don't see much of anything NY faces as being something unique that hasn't been experienced or is being experienced by other states and other states' hunters.

Well, perhaps if there is no state uniqueness, we should have a federal deer management oversight agency that sets the rules for the DEC to administer. Apparently it is being assumed that there is one set of management principles that apply from coast to coast.

 

Frankly, I don't buy it. I cannot think of a single state that has the diversity that NYS has all in one state. Right off the bat, that is what caused us to establish a Northern Zone and a Southern zone with some pretty basic and necessary differences in people and deer density, and habitat and climate and hunting pressure. And yes, we do have huge climate differences from one corner of the state to the other. And then there are the Catskills that have their own little management nuances. We can't even get commonality within our state boundaries, let alone apply "what works" from other states. I suspect that the DEC wishes that it were as simple as cherry picking from other states. Yes we are unique. And I for one will not presume to think that the idea to look to other states for management theories, research and actions has never been thought of by the DEC.

[dbHunterNY]

i think the only difference is expectations for buck size.  out of state hunters come here from say VT or FL and just want to shoot something.  we go to places like Ohio with hopes of shooting a trophy and will more likely pass deer.  a good deer here in 110" and up.  when I hunted in Okie land guys talked about a nice one being 150+.  residents tell to have slightly lesser standards at times but not like here in NY.  other than that I've experienced no difference.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Care to address the discussion rather than simply worrying about how I express myself. I mean that whining in the face of not having anything real to say is getting pretty darn old. My gosh, at least I have opinions and don't have to harp about a few words that seem to sting in your craw. I mean really, if you have something real to add lets hear it, but you people who rave about all these ideas with the zeal of an insurance salesman (sorry insurance salesmen) really shouldn't whine so much when somebody paraphrases your enthusiasm with a few accurate descriptive alternative terms.

 

As to your last paragraph, I'm sorry that I have opinions, and I'm sorry that they rankle you so, but this is a forum where opinions are expressed. Get used to it.

 

Have you been reading the threads? Ive addressed all of it multiple times, given my opinions and ideas on how I believe the issues would best be handled. I dont claim that any one or even two changes are magic bullets to solve everything. Your descriptions are bunk.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well, perhaps if there is no state uniqueness, we should have a federal deer management oversight agency that sets the rules for the DEC to administer. Apparently it is being assumed that there is one set of management principles that apply from coast to coast.

 

Frankly, I don't buy it. I cannot think of a single state that has the diversity that NYS has all in one state. Right off the bat, that is what caused us to establish a Northern Zone and a Southern zone with some pretty basic and necessary differences in people and deer density, and habitat and climate and hunting pressure. And yes, we do have huge climate differences from one corner of the state to the other. And then there are the Catskills that have their own little management nuances. We can't even get commonality within our state boundaries, let alone apply "what works" from other states. I suspect that the DEC wishes that it were as simple as cherry picking from other states. Yes we are unique. And I for one will not presume to think that the idea to look to other states for management theories, research and actions has never been thought of by the DEC.

 

And there you go taking something that is a completely valid point, and twisting it into something completely different, an extreme.

 

Shocker

[Five Seasons]

I've yet to get an understanding of why NY is an enigma compared to other states. We have the same problems and same obstacles as other states. Some are hackled by law/dept. organization, some have high hunter density, some have access issues, some have population issues, and so on and so forth. I've yet to hear, even after much drum beating, that there is one thing that makes NY different that no other state has encountered.

 

This hunter density thing is a joke, too. NYS ranks third overall - crazy right? Until you realize the fourth and fifth spots are held by WI and OH with similar numbers and they're not exactly struggling to manage fundamentals. Oh, but you say NYers are fickle? Ever meet a toothless wonder, pill popping hunter from Scioto Co. Ohio? That "fickle" NYer pales in comparison pretty quickly when it comes to buy-in, engagement, and "doing their part." There are plenty of states with other big cities that have a hunting populous. Kansas City, St. Loius, Detroit, Cleveland/Cinci/Columbus, Pitt...the names go on and on. Is NYC big? Yes, but their hunter ranks pale compared to those in wNY, too.

 

I just don't see much of anything NY faces as being something unique that hasn't been experienced or is being experienced by other states and other states' hunters.

 

Who is saying it's an enigma? I think what some hunters fail to realize, and I believe it's because they've never left the town they were born in, is that most states don't have it exactly right. I don't think that would ever be possible either. Humans, by nature are never satisfied and at the same time resist change.

 

I believe the issue is though, that some states certainly do it better. I do disagree however regarding hunter density. NY is a big ass state. Some areas are certainly hit harder than others, but land access really seems to be a bigger issue here than i've seen in other states.

[phade]

Who is saying it's an enigma? I think what some hunters fail to realize, and I believe it's because they've never left the town they were born in, is that most states don't have it exactly right. I don't think that would ever be possible either. Humans, by nature are never satisfied and at the same time resist change.

 

I believe the issue is though, that some states certainly do it better. I do disagree however regarding hunter density. NY is a big ass state. Some areas are certainly hit harder than others, but land access really seems to be a bigger issue here than i've seen in other states.

 

Doc for one, NYAntler for another,NYSportsman and so on. They keep saying NY is different, yet at best all they can offer up are anecdotal statements like regions or terrain...or the hunters themselves...or population issues....as if other states don't have the same exact freaking thing to face and overcome.

 

Oh, you have southern and northern zones? Oh, are you talking about MO or NY? Oh, you have various topography? OH? NY? KY? IA? KS? Oh the hunters are fickle...NY? OH? IA? MI? WI?

 

Give me a break. You are falling into Doc's magic bullet façade. Keep context - we're not unique, potential solutions are out there, we likely have issues that are being better addressed by other peer accepted plans, the agency is on a dictatorship path, and some of our hunters don't care, or try to be a stick in the mud.

Edited September 11, 2015 by phade

[Doc]

And there you go taking something that is a completely valid point, and twisting it into something completely different, an extreme.

 

Shocker

And there you are whining about how something is worded rather than adding anything useful to the discussion. In fact that's all you ever do is whine about how someone is expressing themselves. Never do you have any constructive additions to the discussion. And yes my comment in that last reply is absolutely appropriate. If there is so much commonality across the country, then why is each state struggling to come up with their own unique versions and nuances to their deer management. While you are whimpering about how something is worded, you are running away from the truth of the statement. If things are so common from one state to another, a pooled federal activity absolutely could be set up nationwide to define "best practices" in deer management. But then everyone except a couple of people on this forum understand that. But the point has been well made and even each of every different state understands that they have their own peculiarities and needs and they all have to design their own management to handle the uniqueness of their own circumstances. I don't even see how anyone can argue that. I have outlined a few of the more glaring unique features of NYS which are so obvious that it surprises me that I have to list them. And if you guys were not so busy trying to prove me wrong, you would have to have the honesty to admit the obvious.

 

Regional problems require regional solutions. Yeah that's right. One size does not fit all. Not here within the state and certainly not across the country. Things from other states can and should be looked at and I'm sure already have. But it is just patently ignorant to say,  "Well gee it works there so it has to work here". While the DEC has many known flaws that they should work on, thank heavens their logic is not that screwed-up as to apply that kind of reasoning.