Alternative thinking

[phade]

The lions share of the high population areas are in Region 8. I don't know about the proximity of the other WMU's to their region headquarters but in 8 it is a pretty easy drive down there to have the kill verified and another tag issued.

 

 

DEC also is on record saying that the check station and logistics are too costly in their response to the bonus DMP/WMU trials.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

DEC also is on record saying that the check station and logistics are too costly in their response to the bonus DMP/WMU trials.

Quite a few cars in the parking lot at Region 8 Headquarters every day. Gotta believe one of them has a few free minutes...lol

[phade]

Quite a few cars in the parking lot at Region 8 Headquarters every day. Gotta believe one of them has a few free minutes...lol

 

What we believe and they believe are resoundingly different. Even if we're right, we're wrong.

[Five Seasons]

Quite a few cars in the parking lot at Region 8 Headquarters every day. Gotta believe one of them has a few free minutes...lol

 

I'll admit to never having worked a state job. But I've dealt with many state workers. No, they're not all the same. But the level of effort and time that goes in to a private industry job and what's expected of a state employee is laughable. Sure my pay is better, but those benefits...

 

[nyantler]

I'll admit to never having worked a state job. But I've dealt with many state workers. No, they're not all the same. But the level of effort and time that goes in to a private industry job and what's expected of a state employee is laughable. Sure my pay is better, but those benefits...

 

I have worked for the state and you are right on point. It's almost a crime when you witness it in person. The on the job perks are even better than the benefits!

[phade]

With all of the couples that I know, the ones who have one in a solid private sector job and one in a local/county/state/fed job (teaching, highway dept., gov't offices or depts., etc.)....they seem to be able to live well overall. It balances the pay vs. the long-term benefits.

[Nomad]

With all of the couples that I know, the ones who have one in a solid private sector job and one in a local/county/state/fed job (teaching, highway dept., gov't offices or depts., etc.)....they seem to be able to live well overall. It balances the pay vs. the long-term benefits.

Worked well for the wife and I ! Although her company where she's got over 30 years is moving to Mexico ( I got her the Spanish Rosetta Stone, sunscreen and a case of water..... ). Kinda hard to move the Fire Dept to Mexico . What sold me on the FD was the work schedule , families hate it because of working nights , week ends and Holidays , but it works great for hunting !

Edited September 9, 2015 by Larry302

[Doc]

Doc/ NYantler,

How much do you think the drop in hunter recruitment has to do with this inability to kill enough does?

And What about other cultural changes? I tend to think, on the whole, there are less hunters who are learning how to cook. And probably destroy venison when they prepare it. There are more hunters nowadays who either don't like it themselves or are married to women who refuse to eat it. Heck I think less families actually cook their own dinner on a regular basis than in years past. There are also hunters who don't shoot many deer because of the "terrifying experience" it will be for their wife when they bring it home. As stupid as that sounds. Also what about butchering? Do fewer people butcher their own? If I didn't do my own, at 80 a pop that starts to hurt my wallet.

Another thing to consider is land development and suburbs? As more land is developed in some of these over run areas, deer crowd into what woods there are left. And they exist in suburbs that are off limits to hunting. I think these factors certainly play in to the reason why hunters in some areas may not be killing enough deer to meet the the goals (as mysterious as they are) of the dec. It's a darn near impossible task to begin with.

You really do have to wonder why this is getting to be a growing problem in some areas and not in others. In fact if you look at the areas they have defined as being out of control, there seems to be a "regionality" to it. Are the cultural changes really all that isolated that they would only show up in certain clustered specific areas? What is unique about those isolated areas that makes people not want to shoot does? I like the line of your questions and think that you may be thinking outside the box and that may be where the solutions lie. Looking at the map, it seems that the problem is localized, and if I were the DEC, I would be asking what it is that makes these areas unique. Perhaps it could suggest a whole category of solutions that no one is even considering.

[Vinny Tagalucci]

One word describes why not enough does are killed in 1c.The same word probably goes for the other areas as well: ANTLERS

[Vinny Tagalucci]

As far as deer retreating to non hunted areas creating pockets of excessive population-any area around here that holds deer is being hunted-legal or not,but antlerless deer are not the target.

[A Sportsman]

Vinny, according to dec published statistics the ratio of doe take to buck take on Long Island is right on par if not better than many high population areas across the state. And we do this without a gun season across most of the woods here.

To me that suggests that Long Island hunters are trying to do their part. In addition lots of deer (I believe about the same amount that hunters kill each year) are shot on nuisance permits.

I think there are other factors at play (besides a little reluctance from some hunters to shoot a doe) as to why dec is having a hard time dropping deer numbers down to their desired levels here.

That said, if every single hunter decided, or was forced, to shoot at least one doe, i bet it would help the dec's cause.

[Bendog]

"here in 4J you had to check your harvest in to get the bonus (either-sex) DMP.  no way to really fake a harvest."

 

 

Actually, there IS a way to "fake a harvest".....simply shoot a doe from another unit and tag it accordingly....that's one of the challenges with an earn-a-buck system...in states that had Earn-a-Buck in place they found hunters shooting does outside the EAB zone and bringing them in....even picking up roadkills in some cases if they were intact to the point where they could pass as hunter-shot deer....

[nyantler]

Doc/ NYantler,

How much do you think the drop in hunter recruitment has to do with this inability to kill enough does?

And What about other cultural changes? I tend to think, on the whole, there are less hunters who are learning how to cook. And probably destroy venison when they prepare it. There are more hunters nowadays who either don't like it themselves or are married to women who refuse to eat it. Heck I think less families actually cook their own dinner on a regular basis than in years past. There are also hunters who don't shoot many deer because of the "terrifying experience" it will be for their wife when they bring it home. As stupid as that sounds. Also what about butchering? Do fewer people butcher their own? If I didn't do my own, at 80 a pop that starts to hurt my wallet.

Another thing to consider is land development and suburbs? As more land is developed in some of these over run areas, deer crowd into what woods there are left. And they exist in suburbs that are off limits to hunting. I think these factors certainly play in to the reason why hunters in some areas may not be killing enough deer to meet the the goals (as mysterious as they are) of the dec. It's a darn near impossible task to begin with.

The low number of hunters and dwindling habitat does create a problem for the DEC in some respects but it doesn't change the fact that todays NY hunters aren't always on board with doing what they need to do to help the situation. 40 years ago I got 1 tag. It was a buck tag. Getting a party permit was unheard of for most and if you got one it was JUST 1. There were virtually no bowhunters and the season was about 3 weeks long. Habitats were much bigger and access was easier and hunters took about the same number of deer overall as they do today. Since then Habitats and access may have lessened but the number of tags issued per hunter on average is 3 to 6 times greater depending on where you are, the hunting season is two months long. That tells me that hunters aren't doing their part when it comes to filling doe tags or even buck tags for that matter. The fact that the number of hunters has diminished by about 45% but get 3-6 times more tags to fill ( most of those DMP's) shows a failure by hunters to fill doe tags at a level needed to continue holding populations to where they belong... the lower hunter participation shouldn't be an issue as enough tags have been issued to more than make up for the loss of hunters if you do the math. There is an answer to the problem.. and the answer is: If hunters are truly concerned about the deer population and whether or not we're keeping up with proper management of deer herds, then they can't sit back on idle thinking that they aren't a huge factor in the problem. Some hunters fail to do their part, yet complain as if it is the rest of the hunters responsibility to take up their slack. "Someone else will kill the does I refuse to kill"

[Vinny Tagalucci]

Nyantler gets it

[phade]

You really do have to wonder why this is getting to be a growing problem in some areas and not in others. In fact if you look at the areas they have defined as being out of control, there seems to be a "regionality" to it. Are the cultural changes really all that isolated that they would only show up in certain clustered specific areas? What is unique about those isolated areas that makes people not want to shoot does? I like the line of your questions and think that you may be thinking outside the box and that may be where the solutions lie. Looking at the map, it seems that the problem is localized, and if I were the DEC, I would be asking what it is that makes these areas unique. Perhaps it could suggest a whole category of solutions that no one is even considering.

 

More evidence of closed loop thinking.

 

What data or information proves people don't want to shoot does in that area? The DEC said not enough does are being shot in that area. Big difference there, Doc. The WMU DMP success percentage rate for the antlerless only areas are pretty much in the middle 30% of the bell curve - proving that not only are hunters in that area within the typical range, but that because those areas have higher DMP issuance, the success rate being in the middle means they're shooting MORE does by volume. The WMUs IDed for antlerless sit atop the WMUs for DMP harvest numbers.

 

They need to open up the flood gates on tag management, incentivize property owners to open ground, review/remove the practice for charging for DMPs, remove the limitation on consignments (the whole idea of consignment is silly), use the right tools (which is what they are doing long-term to our dismay), and then work in other practical management practices like OBR and/or other incentive/pro-management techniques to better manage the resource and hunter retention.

 

Instead we have buffoons in office doing what they're doing and getting people to successfully talk in circles like the answers don't exist in any appreciable form because NY is some enigma that makes it different than other states so much so that nothing learned, proven, or peer-accepted, is transferrable. My advice to those people, get over yourselves. NY is no different, the hunters are no different, and you still pull your camo britches up one leg at a time.

Edited September 10, 2015 by phade

[Five Seasons]

With all of the couples that I know, the ones who have one in a solid private sector job and one in a local/county/state/fed job (teaching, highway dept., gov't offices or depts., etc.)....they seem to be able to live well overall. It balances the pay vs. the long-term benefits.

 

my dad worked at kodak and my mom was a teacher. worked great for them as well. till kodak finally kicked my dad to the curb after 34 years at the age of 58.

[A Sportsman]

I respect nyantlers opinion on it but I'm not sure i am fully on board with what he is saying. We have half as many hunters as we used to. Ok. So just because it's falling out of favor with other people means I should have to go shoot over double the amount of deer as I used to? At what point does this logic fall off? If hunter numbers drop another 20 percent, would those of us left have then shoot 4 times as many deer to "do our part". Doing our part should be more about introducing hunting to others (recruitment) and enjoying time in the woods. Not killing as many deer as we can. If that's what some hunters want to do, kudos to them. Frankly, my goal first is to enjoy myself.

[A Sportsman]

That said, guys who refuse to shoot any does at in these areas truly are not doing their part. And that is a shame.

[dbHunterNY]

"here in 4J you had to check your harvest in to get the bonus (either-sex) DMP.  no way to really fake a harvest."

 

 

Actually, there IS a way to "fake a harvest".....simply shoot a doe from another unit and tag it accordingly....that's one of the challenges with an earn-a-buck system...in states that had Earn-a-Buck in place they found hunters shooting does outside the EAB zone and bringing them in....even picking up roadkills in some cases if they were intact to the point where they could pass as hunter-shot deer....

yea i'll agree... there's more effectively involved than just calling in a fake deer take but I'm sure someone's done it.  come to think of it that might have been one of DEC's reasons for ditching bonus DMPs.  where there's a will, there's a way.  hunters in that context can screw up just about any plan.

Edited September 10, 2015 by dbHunterNY

[jjb4900]

you also gotta figure that many guys put aside a certain amount of time for hunting, and I would assume that is so they can hunt and kill the deer that they want, not what they are being told to kill........if I had two weeks set aside to deer hunt, it certainly isn't going to be scheduled for the first two weeks of October anymore......I have no idea if the majority of the guys who hunt the affected area actually live there and can put the extra effort into killing more deer or not, if these areas see a large amount of out of town hunters, then this doe only thing will fail even worse then it is currently destined to.

[Doc]

yea i'll agree... there's more effectively involved than just calling in a fake deer take but I'm sure someone's done it.  come to think of it that might have been one of DEC's reasons for ditching bonus DMPs.  where there's a will, there's a way.  hunters in that context can screw up just about any plan.

It is true that just about any plan you can devise can be cheated. That is why it is important to get serious (not contrived) hunter buy-in. And yes, you will still get the cheaters. And you will have to work to foil as many of those cheaters as possible just like they have to do with any conservation law in existence. But if you can get the majority of hunters in synch with what you are trying to do, the cheating problem gets a little less. Not only do you get more conformance, but you get more willing eyes out there to aid in bringing down cheaters.

 

However, I do agree that a lot of ideas sound great until you start to examine the details. Those "details" are good to bring up and talk about.

[Doc]

More evidence of closed loop thinking.

 

What data or information proves people don't want to shoot does in that area? The DEC said not enough does are being shot in that area. Big difference there, Doc. The WMU DMP success percentage rate for the antlerless only areas are pretty much in the middle 30% of the bell curve - proving that not only are hunters in that area within the typical range, but that because those areas have higher DMP issuance, the success rate being in the middle means they're shooting MORE does by volume. The WMUs IDed for antlerless sit atop the WMUs for DMP harvest numbers.

 

They need to open up the flood gates on tag management, incentivize property owners to open ground, review/remove the practice for charging for DMPs, remove the limitation on consignments (the whole idea of consignment is silly), use the right tools (which is what they are doing long-term to our dismay), and then work in other practical management practices like OBR and/or other incentive/pro-management techniques to better manage the resource and hunter retention.

 

Instead we have buffoons in office doing what they're doing and getting people to successfully talk in circles like the answers don't exist in any appreciable form because NY is some enigma that makes it different than other states so much so that nothing learned, proven, or peer-accepted, is transferrable. My advice to those people, get over yourselves. NY is no different, the hunters are no different, and you still pull your camo britches up one leg at a time.

I think what they are saying is that hunters in that area are not shooting an adequate number of does to keep the population from continuing to explode. Regardless of where the hunters of that area stand in the percentages, they still are not keeping pace with the available does. There is something unique about that region that is causing an out-of-control deer population, they say. Each year they have doe tags left over that no one is interested in picking up. So flooding the area with more permits is simply not hacking it anymore.

 

So the question still has to be asked (and not ignored or buried in BS), why this one relatively small area of NYS has this unique problem. And I am simply asking that question.

 

And no the solution is not to run off and randomly try this idea or that idea from some randomly selected state. This unique regional problem will require a unique targeted regional solution. And my thought is that when that question that I am asking is answered, there may very well be some major breakthroughs in deer management that may reach beyond the boundaries of these few WMUs.

 

[phade]

I think what they are saying is that hunters in that area are not shooting an adequate number of does to keep the population from continuing to explode. Regardless of where the hunters of that area stand in the percentages, they still are not keeping pace with the available does. There is something unique about that region that is causing an out-of-control deer population, they say. Each year they have doe tags left over that no one is interested in picking up. So flooding the area with more permits is simply not hacking it anymore.

 

So the question still has to be asked (and not ignored or buried in BS), why this one relatively small area of NYS has this unique problem. And I am simply asking that question.

 

And no the solution is not to run off and randomly try this idea or that idea from some randomly selected state. This unique regional problem will require a unique targeted regional solution. And my thought is that when that question that I am asking is answered, there may very well be some major breakthroughs in deer management that may reach beyond the boundaries of these few WMUs.

 

 

Wow, Doc. One area? Leftover tags, so people aren't interested? Wow, you really are buying what the DEC is selling.

 

Think for a moment and answer me this - where are the WMUs that have the new antlerless seasons?

 

For the leftovers, why does consignment even exist? Why must people wait until Nov. 1 to get second chance tags when the early antlerless season is the first two weeks in Nov.? Why wait until Nov. 1 when the deadline for initial DMPs is Oct. 1 - a full 30 days earlier?

 

They're essentially selling people on the fact that tags are leftover, yet they restrict the ability to get them in not one, not two, but three or more ways.

 

Also, this problem isn't unique. I just don't get why you keep saying that at all.

[nyantler]

I respect nyantlers opinion on it but I'm not sure i am fully on board with what he is saying. We have half as many hunters as we used to. Ok. So just because it's falling out of favor with other people means I should have to go shoot over double the amount of deer as I used to? At what point does this logic fall off? If hunter numbers drop another 20 percent, would those of us left have then shoot 4 times as many deer to "do our part". Doing our part should be more about introducing hunting to others (recruitment) and enjoying time in the woods. Not killing as many deer as we can. If that's what some hunters want to do, kudos to them. Frankly, my goal first is to enjoy myself.

I am in agreement with recruting younger hunters, but with diminishing hunter numbers the only way to keep up with deer populations is to kill more deer. Go back to some of my original posts and you will find where I say that I am all about the hunting experience. Personally, I don't concern myself with what other hunters are doing... I don't care much about rule changes because they rarely affect my style of hunting or my hunting experience and if they did I would change to adapt. This forum is probably the only place that anyone will hear my opinions on deer management and that is only because I enjoy being involved in the debates on here. I gave up long ago trying to convince hunters that being a conservationist is a responsibility that all hunters need to embrace if they are truly concerned about the future of hunting. These days I am just a hunter that does his part and pretty much goes by the rule "Shut up and hunt". Like you, my ONLY goal is to enjoy my hunting experience... my opinions on the forum are strictly to participate in the enjoyment of this forum with fellow hunters. Frankly, all of this is near the bottom of the list of important things in life, but maybe near the top of the list of things that are enjoyable to participate in. Purely entertainment for me.

[phade]

I am in agreement with recruting younger hunters, but with diminishing hunter numbers the only way to keep up with deer populations is to kill more deer. Go back to some of my original posts and you will find where I say that I am all about the hunting experience. Personally, I don't concern myself with what other hunters are doing... I don't care much about rule changes because they rarely affect my style of hunting or my hunting experience and if they did I would change to adapt. This forum is probably the only place that anyone will hear my opinions on deer management and that is only because I enjoy being involved in the debates on here. I gave up long ago trying to convince hunters that being a conservationist is a responsibility that all hunters need to embrace if they are truly concerned about the future of hunting. These days I am just a hunter that does his part and pretty much goes by the rule "Shut up and hunt". Like you, my ONLY goal is to enjoy my hunting experience... my opinions on the forum are strictly to participate in the enjoyment of this forum with fellow hunters. Frankly, all of this is near the bottom of the list of important things in life, but maybe near the top of the list of things that are enjoyable to participate in. Purely entertainment for me.

 

If I am reading this incorrectly, but I apologize, but are you essentially saying that because the reg changes doesn't impact you/your style, that you don't care about it? I completely understand the dynamics of the dog eat dog world, but I wouldn't fully wholesale discount something that screws with a passion/enjoyment for others because it doesn't impact me.