Just learned that .223 is legal

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, shawnhu said:

 

I tried to find where I've read these regs, but was unable to do so. Everything I've looked up points to any center fire like you've stated. I'm either getting senile or its buried somewhere that I don't care to spend more than 15 minutes looking into.

 

I have seen this before but it was a few years ago. If you use the online version and search through it you can't find it. I think they changed the reg to include the .22 calibers The 22-250 uses a .224 size bullet and I have seen these rounds do a number on deer. I think they rescinded that part of the regs.

Edited September 20, 2016 by chas0218

[Culvercreek hunt club]

just for the record the handout and the online are NOT the regulations and may NOT be inclusive of all Environmental laws. 

 

Worth having for reference

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/lawssrch.cgi?NVLWO:

 

For those of you that have friends that love to party at camp, check out Article 11, Title 12.

[Lawdwaz]

2 hours ago, shawnhu said:

 

 

Larry, before you go attacking me on learning a thing or two, do you know what external ballistics is? How about terminal ballistics? Difference between the two?

 

 

NOT to be confused with this Larry......

[Culvercreek hunt club]

"Larry, Larry and my other brother Larry"

[LJC]

7 hours ago, Larry said:

Shawnhu you need to learn something about ballistics and how things work. First most deer killed in NY are killed at less than 100yrds with a gun. Next there is more to killing a deer then how fast and how many energy foot pounds the bullet has. There is mass, momentum, diameter and bullet design and construction that has to be a counted for. A 12ga full bore slug weighs 437.5grs a 22cal bullet weighs 60gr the 12ga weighs over 7 times more than the 22cal bullet. The slug has three times the dia. As the .224 bullet and is made of soft lead and will expand at lower velocity and hold together you can only make the jacket on a.224 bullet so thick before it will starts to act like a fmj. Then there’s the momentum the slug has over ten times the momentum then the 22cal bullet. The shear mass of the 12ga slug makes it much better than a .224 bullet and when you add rifled barrel and a sabot it can make the 12ga better out to 200yds. That’s not saying a 223 won’t kill deer but if I had to choose between the 2 I would go with the 12ga every time.

Yep larry is 100 % right 

 

[Jaeger]

5 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

just for the record the handout and the online are NOT the regulations and may NOT be inclusive of all Environmental laws. 

 

Worth having for reference

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/lawssrch.cgi?NVLWO:

 

IF YOUR NOT INTERESTED IN THIS KIND OF LEGALESE SEARCHING STUFF, SKIP OVER THIS POST.  I just provided it here because some of us get into this kind of thing.

Ok, so I went to the site, got to the DEC section, the hunting section and found this:

b. No person shall hunt deer:
    (1) with the aid of a dog, or aircraft of any kind; or
    (2) with the aid of a jacklight, spotlight, headlight or other type of
  artificial light; or
    (3) with a pistol, revolver or rifle using rim-fire ammunition; or
    (4)  with  a  shotgun  of less than twenty gauge or loaded with shells
  other than shells each carrying a single round ball or  a  single  slug,
  provided  however, the use of a shotgun of twenty gauge or larger having
  a rifled barrel or a smooth bore barrel  fitted  with  a  rifled  choke,
  loaded  with  shells each carrying a single round ball or a single slug,
  shall not be prohibited so long as only  shells  having  a  non-metallic
  case, except for the base, are used; or
    (5)  with  a  long  bow  with  a  draw weight of less than thirty-five
  pounds; or
    (6) with an arrow or bolt with an arrowhead that  measures  less  than
  seven-eighths  of an inch at its widest point or that has fewer than two
  sharp cutting edges; or
    (7) with the aid of a pre-established bait pile other than those areas
  established by standard agricultural production practices; or
    (8) with an arrow with a barbed broadhead arrowhead; or
    (9) with a crossbow unless such crossbow shall consist of  a  bow  and
  string,  either  compound  or  recurve, that launches a minimum fourteen
  inch bolt, not including point, mounted upon a stock with a trigger that
  holds the string and limbs under tension  until  released.  The  trigger
  unit of such crossbow must have a working safety. The minimum limb width
  of  such  crossbow  shall  be seventeen inches, have a minimum peak draw
  weight of one hundred pounds and a  maximum  peak  draw  weight  of  two
  hundred  pounds.  The  minimum  overall  length  of  such  crossbow from
  buttstock to front of limbs shall be twenty-four inches.
    c. No person shall hunt bear:
    (1) with the aid of a dog, or aircraft of any kind; or
    (2) with the aid of a jacklight, spotlight, headlight or other type of
  artificial light; or
    (3) with a pistol, revolver or rifle using rim-fire ammunition; or
    (4) with a shotgun of less than twenty gauge  or  loaded  with  shells
  other  than  shells  each carrying a single round ball or a single slug,
  provided however, the use of a shotgun of twenty gauge or larger  having
  a  rifled  barrel  or  a  smooth bore barrel fitted with a rifled choke,
  loaded with shells each carrying a single round ball or a  single  slug,
  shall  not  be  prohibited  so long as only shells having a non-metallic
  case, except for the base, are used; or
    (5) with a long bow with  a  draw  weight  of  less  than  thirty-five
  pounds; or
    (6)  with  an  arrow or bolt with an arrowhead that measures less than
  seven-eighths of an inch at its widest point or that has fewer than  two
  sharp cutting edges; or
    (7) with the aid of a pre-established bait pile other than those areas
  established by standard agricultural production practices; or
    (8) with an arrow with a barbed broadhead arrowhead; or
    (9)  with  a  crossbow unless such crossbow shall consist of a bow and
  string, either compound or recurve, that  launches  a  minimum  fourteen
  inch bolt, not including point, mounted upon a stock with a trigger that
  holds  the  string  and  limbs under tension until released. The trigger
  unit of such crossbow must have a working safety. The minimum limb width
  of such crossbow shall be seventeen inches, have  a  minimum  peak  draw
  weight  of  one  hundred  pounds  and  a maximum peak draw weight of two
  hundred pounds.  The  minimum  overall  length  of  such  crossbow  from
  buttstock to front of limbs shall be twenty-four inches.

 

Soo, looking at deer section b (3) can't use Rimfire for deer and section c (3) has the same prohibition for bear.

The enacted regulations are promulgated as prohibitions on the use of rimfire ammunition for deer and bear hunting and, by impilcation, allowing any centerfire rifle.  Guess it was easier for the DEC to write up the regs that way in the Implements sections (still cite no rimfire in the general regs section)

 

NO OFFENSE MEANT TO ANYONE.  Just wish we all could have these discussions in a civilized manner without insulting each other.  Thank you shawnhu (sp?, can't read posts and type responses simultaneously).  I also had read .22 centerfire, but that I think was way in the past.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Jaeger

[shawnhu]

IF YOUR NOT INTERESTED IN THIS KIND OF LEGALESE SEARCHING STUFF, SKIP OVER THIS POST.  I just provided it here because some of us get into this kind of thing.

Ok, so I went to the site, got to the DEC section, the hunting section and found this:

b. No person shall hunt deer:    (1) with the aid of a dog, or aircraft of any kind; or    (2) with the aid of a jacklight, spotlight, headlight or other type of  artificial light; or    (3) with a pistol, revolver or rifle using rim-fire ammunition; or    (4)  with  a  shotgun  of less than twenty gauge or loaded with shells  other than shells each carrying a single round ball or  a  single  slug,  provided  however, the use of a shotgun of twenty gauge or larger having  a rifled barrel or a smooth bore barrel  fitted  with  a  rifled  choke,  loaded  with  shells each carrying a single round ball or a single slug,  shall not be prohibited so long as only  shells  having  a  non-metallic  case, except for the base, are used; or    (5)  with  a  long  bow  with  a  draw weight of less than thirty-five  pounds; or    (6) with an arrow or bolt with an arrowhead that  measures  less  than  seven-eighths  of an inch at its widest point or that has fewer than two  sharp cutting edges; or    (7) with the aid of a pre-established bait pile other than those areas  established by standard agricultural production practices; or    ( with an arrow with a barbed broadhead arrowhead; or    (9) with a crossbow unless such crossbow shall consist of  a  bow  and  string,  either  compound  or  recurve, that launches a minimum fourteen  inch bolt, not including point, mounted upon a stock with a trigger that  holds the string and limbs under tension  until  released.  The  trigger  unit of such crossbow must have a working safety. The minimum limb width  of  such  crossbow  shall  be seventeen inches, have a minimum peak draw  weight of one hundred pounds and a  maximum  peak  draw  weight  of  two  hundred  pounds.  The  minimum  overall  length  of  such  crossbow from  buttstock to front of limbs shall be twenty-four inches.    c. No person shall hunt bear:    (1) with the aid of a dog, or aircraft of any kind; or    (2) with the aid of a jacklight, spotlight, headlight or other type of  artificial light; or    (3) with a pistol, revolver or rifle using rim-fire ammunition; or    (4) with a shotgun of less than twenty gauge  or  loaded  with  shells  other  than  shells  each carrying a single round ball or a single slug,  provided however, the use of a shotgun of twenty gauge or larger  having  a  rifled  barrel  or  a  smooth bore barrel fitted with a rifled choke,  loaded with shells each carrying a single round ball or a  single  slug,  shall  not  be  prohibited  so long as only shells having a non-metallic  case, except for the base, are used; or    (5) with a long bow with  a  draw  weight  of  less  than  thirty-five  pounds; or    (6)  with  an  arrow or bolt with an arrowhead that measures less than  seven-eighths of an inch at its widest point or that has fewer than  two  sharp cutting edges; or    (7) with the aid of a pre-established bait pile other than those areas  established by standard agricultural production practices; or    ( with an arrow with a barbed broadhead arrowhead; or    (9)  with  a  crossbow unless such crossbow shall consist of a bow and  string, either compound or recurve, that  launches  a  minimum  fourteen  inch bolt, not including point, mounted upon a stock with a trigger that  holds  the  string  and  limbs under tension until released. The trigger  unit of such crossbow must have a working safety. The minimum limb width  of such crossbow shall be seventeen inches, have  a  minimum  peak  draw  weight  of  one  hundred  pounds  and  a maximum peak draw weight of two  hundred pounds.  The  minimum  overall  length  of  such  crossbow  from  buttstock to front of limbs shall be twenty-four inches.

 

Soo, looking at deer section b (3) can't use Rimfire for deer and section c (3) has the same prohibition for bear.

The enacted regulations are promulgated as prohibitions on the use of rimfire ammunition for deer and bear hunting and, by impilcation, allowing any centerfire rifle.  Guess it was easier for the DEC to write up the regs that way in the Implements sections (still cite no rimfire in the general regs section)

 

NO OFFENSE MEANT TO ANYONE.  Just wish we all could have these discussions in a civilized manner without insulting each other.  Thank you shawnhu (sp?, can't read posts and type responses simultaneously).  I also had read .22 centerfire, but that I think was way in the past.

Thanks for looking that up Jaeger. Nothing wrong with civilized discussions. It would seem I was either wrong or outdated regarding center fires for big game in NY.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

10 minutes ago, Jaeger said:

Soo, looking at deer section b (3) cant use Rimfire for deer and section c (3) has the same prohibition for bear.

The enacted regulations are promulgated as prohibitions on the use of rimfire ammunition for deer and bear hunting and, by impilcation, allowing any centerfire rifle.  Guess it was easier for the DEC to write up the regs that way in the Implements sections (still cite no rimfire in the general regs section)

 

IF YOUR NOT INTERESTED IN THIS KIND OF LEGALESE SEARCHING STUFF, SKIP OVER THIS POST.  I just provided it here because some of us get into this kind of thing.

NO OFFENSE MEANT TO ANYONE ELSE.  Just wish we all could have these discussions in a civilized manner without insulting each other.  Thank you shawnhu (sp?, can't read posts and type responses simultaneously).  I also had read .22 centerfire, but that I think was way in the past.

I just ran it by an older DEC officer I know becasue I thought I remembered a regulation that it was .25 caliber centerfire or bigger years ago. I know there was also a pistol restriction for caliber size so I may be mixing the two but he remembered it as I did. I googled and apparently old regs aren't on. hell there wasn't computers then...lol

[Pygmy]

27 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

27 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I just ran it by an older DEC officer I know becasue I thought I remembered a regulation that it was .25 caliber centerfire or bigger years ago. I know there was also a pistol restriction for caliber size so I may be mixing the two but he remembered it as I did. I googled and apparently old regs aren't on. hell there wasn't computers then...lol

I just ran it by an older DEC officer I know becasue I thought I remembered a regulation that it was .25 caliber centerfire or bigger years ago. I know there was also a pistol restriction for caliber size so I may be mixing the two but he remembered it as I did. I googled and apparently old regs aren't on. hell there wasn't computers then...lol

Culver....trusting only my rusty old memory, I NEVER remember any restrictions in rifle areas of NY as anything but " ANY CENTERFIRE".

I do remember southern zone restrictions in areas that were once shotgun only..When pistols were first permitted it was " .35 cal. or larger"  in the shotgun areas.

[DirtTime]

If I remember, you couldn't even use a rifled slug barrel in the shotgun only areas.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Culver....trusting only my rusty old memory, I NEVER remember any restrictions in rifle areas of NY as anything but " ANY CENTERFIRE".

I do remember southern zone restrictions in areas that were once shotgun only..When pistols were first permitted it was " .35 cal. or larger"  in the shotgun areas.

I remembered portions of that as well. Back then we never did any pistol or rifle hunting so it never really made a lasting impression.

[Larry]

I sure do been reloading before you were born I know the muzzle velocity and 100yd velocity of everything I shoot including my bow out to 40yds. When I say I know the velocity that’s the exact velocity not what’s on the box. Until you have shot into different media and see what happens to the bullet see a wound channel both the temporary and permanent  channels. Ballistic  jell is the best because you can see both wound channels. Clay only shows the temporary cavity unless it long enough to stop the bullet. Duct seal will stop most bullets it won’t stop BRI slugs or Remington copper solids they blows though my 75lb block. I don’t have a 223 but I have a 22-250 and at 50yds the wound cavity dia. Is about 2 3/8 in. and would not go through a 50lb block 60gr bullet going 3540fps the 12gr foster slugs cavity was almost 5in. and  went through the 50lb block at 100 it was over 4in dia and still went through . the 60gr .224 had a 1 5/8 in. dia. Cavity and did not go through the block. I know a lot more about  terminal ballistics then you are ever going to know. Here is one more thing do you know why I used a 60gr bullet in my testing. I want know your answer.

[turkeyfeathers]

Dang , this thread is catching up to the beer thread in posts. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Dang , this thread is catching up to the beer thread in posts. 

It does every year. Now we only need an AR thread and a Texas heart shot thread. Lol

[shawnhu]

I sure do been reloading before you were born I know the muzzle velocity and 100yd velocity of everything I shoot including my bow out to 40yds. When I say I know the velocity that’s the exact velocity not what’s on the box. Until you have shot into different media and see what happens to the bullet see a wound channel both the temporary and permanent  channels. Ballistic  jell is the best because you can see both wound channels. Clay only shows the temporary cavity unless it long enough to stop the bullet. Duct seal will stop most bullets it won’t stop BRI slugs or Remington copper solids they blows though my 75lb block. I don’t have a 223 but I have a 22-250 and at 50yds the wound cavity dia. Is about 2 3/8 in. and would not go through a 50lb block 60gr bullet going 3540fps the 12gr foster slugs cavity was almost 5in. and  went through the 50lb block at 100 it was over 4in dia and still went through . the 60gr .224 had a 1 5/8 in. dia. Cavity and did not go through the block. I know a lot more about  terminal ballistics then you are ever going to know. Here is one more thing do you know why I used a 60gr bullet in my testing. I want know your answer.

Larry, I misplaced my phallus measuring stick. I would ask to borrow yours to compare, but I fear it may be insufficient.

Congratulations on admitting that you're as old as a dinosaur, probably just as grumpy as well. Some people age gracefully, but others, sadly don't.

To answer your question, (if it's even a question at all) you probably used a 60gr pill because you have don't have a .223 and 60gr would give you the best "guess" and put you in the category of "internet expert". You seem to like tooting your own horn, so that's my best guess.

[chas0218]

Larry, I misplaced my phallus measuring stick. I would ask to borrow yours to compare, but I fear it may be insufficient.

Congratulations on admitting that you're as old as a dinosaur, probably just as grumpy as well. Some people age gracefully, but others, sadly don't.

To answer your question, (if it's even a question at all) you probably used a 60gr pill because you have don't have a .223 and 60gr would give you the best "guess" and put you in the category of "internet expert". You seem to like tooting your own horn, so that's my best guess.

My question is did he use the same amount of powder used in the 60gr. .223 load to get comparative results or the 22-250 load with the same grain bullet? In the latter case, using the amount of expansion and penetration for his argument is pointless if the velocity of the 22-250 is whistling any faster than the .223 round would be.

Either way I want to know his answer.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[LJC]

23 hours ago, Larry said:

I sure do been reloading before you were born I know the muzzle velocity and 100yd velocity of everything I shoot including my bow out to 40yds. When I say I know the velocity that’s the exact velocity not what’s on the box. Until you have shot into different media and see what happens to the bullet see a wound channel both the temporary and permanent  channels. Ballistic  jell is the best because you can see both wound channels. Clay only shows the temporary cavity unless it long enough to stop the bullet. Duct seal will stop most bullets it won’t stop BRI slugs or Remington copper solids they blows though my 75lb block. I don’t have a 223 but I have a 22-250 and at 50yds the wound cavity dia. Is about 2 3/8 in. and would not go through a 50lb block 60gr bullet going 3540fps the 12gr foster slugs cavity was almost 5in. and  went through the 50lb block at 100 it was over 4in dia and still went through . the 60gr .224 had a 1 5/8 in. dia. Cavity and did not go through the block. I know a lot more about  terminal ballistics then you are ever going to know. Here is one more thing do you know why I used a 60gr bullet in my testing. I want know your answer.

I think some of these younger guys think a .223 is better at moderate ranges then a shotgun  because of the  video  games they play lol  comparing a slug to a  .223 is like saying  that 

Getting hit by a mac  truck going 55mph is going to make less damage  then a car going 65 mph .  The truck makes more damage even at  slightly slower speeds 

That's basically the difference between a big chunk of lead the slug at under 100 yards  and a little .223 bullet 

[DirtTime]

12 minutes ago, LJC said:

I think some of these younger guys think a .223 is better at moderate ranges then a shotgun  because of the  video  games they play lol  comparing a slug to a  .223 is like saying  that 

Getting hit by a mac  truck going 55mph is going to make less damage  then a car going 65 mph .  The truck makes more damage even at  slightly slower speeds 

That's basically the difference between a big chunk of lead the slug at under 100 yards  and a little .223 bullet 

Do you ever stop?

 

This was the original question:

Quote

After learning this in another post, I did a little reading. It seems that a lot of people have had a lot of success with 60 grain Nosler partition rounds as well as some Barnes rounds. Have any of you guys hunted and harvested deer with a .223?

Have you harvested a deer with a .223? It's not a debate. Have you, or haven't you? Is English really that hard to understand?

 

Edited September 22, 2016 by ....rob

[Core]

I think some of these younger guys think a .223 is better at moderate ranges then a shotgun  because of the  video  games they play lol  comparing a slug to a  .223 is like saying  that 

Getting hit by a mac  truck going 55mph is going to make less damage  then a car going 65 mph .  The truck makes more damage even at  slightly slower speeds 

That's basically the difference between a big chunk of lead the slug at under 100 yards  and a little .223 bullet 

Actually that is a fine point because in your analogy of both the truck and the car if you are hit by either one you are probably done for, rather like a deer hit with a slug or 223.

This is just a guess but I doubt many people here look to video games to understand the capabilities of a cartridge at killing game.

[shawnhu]

I think some of these younger guys think a .223 is better at moderate ranges then a shotgun  because of the  video  games they play lol  comparing a slug to a  .223 is like saying  that 

Getting hit by a mac  truck going 55mph is going to make less damage  then a car going 65 mph .  The truck makes more damage even at  slightly slower speeds 

That's basically the difference between a big chunk of lead the slug at under 100 yards  and a little .223 bullet 

Actually, if the car hit a person at 65mph, or if a truck hit a person at 55mph, the person that was hit with the car at 65mpg would be more dead (or deader than dead if you prefer) than the one hit with a truck at 55mph.

So the real question is, do you think dead is good enough, or is deader than dead better?

[DirtTime]

Who cares about the damn car! Or how far a frog can hop.............

Answer the damn original question.

HAVE YOU KILLED A DEER WITH A .223 ?

[Buckmaster7600]

Damn it I said I was done with this thread. Here is my deciding factor on this side topic of 12ga slug vs 223

A 12 ga slug produces 50-60lbs of recoil in a 7.5lb shotgun.

A 223 produces shooting a 62gn bullet in a 7lb rifle produces 3.9lbs of recoil.

The average hunter will shoot a 223 way more and become way more proficient with it. No one in this world looks forward to sighting in a 12ga. Ammo for the 223 is 1/4 of the price,
223-15$for 20
12ga 15$ for 5

A 223 is inherently more accurate.

The fact that a deer shot with either weapon is going to die just as fast and just as dead with both. Either round through the vitals and the deer is dead quickly a marginal shot and the deer will still suffer.

Owning both having shot both and having killed deer with both
I will choose A 223 over a 12 ga for deer hunting every time in every situation.

Neither are my first choice and I can think of 20+ cartridges I would pick before either of these.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LJC]

4 hours ago, shawnhu said:

 

Actually, if the car hit a person at 65mph, or if a truck hit a person at 55mph, the person that was hit with the car at 65mpg would be more dead (or deader than dead if you prefer) than the one hit with a truck at 55mph.

So the real question is, do you think dead is good enough, or is deader than dead better?

 

True enough you be dead either way lol 

[LJC]

4 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Damn it I said I was done with this thread. Here is my deciding factor on this side topic of 12ga slug vs 223

A 12 ga slug produces 50-60lbs of recoil in a 7.5lb shotgun.

A 223 produces shooting a 62gn bullet in a 7lb rifle produces 3.9lbs of recoil.

The average hunter will shoot a 223 way more and become way more proficient with it. No one in this world looks forward to sighting in a 12ga. Ammo for the 223 is 1/4 of the price,
223-15$for 20
12ga 15$ for 5

A 223 is inherently more accurate.

The fact that a deer shot with either weapon is going to die just as fast and just as dead with both. Either round through the vitals and the deer is dead quickly a marginal shot and the deer will still suffer.

Owning both having shot both and having killed deer with both
I will choose A 223 over a 12 ga for deer hunting every time in every situation.

Neither are my first choice and I can think of 20+ cartridges I would pick before either of these.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually i use the shotgun because lately been hunting shotgun only zone .

I use iron sites on it so siting in is not a big deal .  And shots are under 100 yards you can't see more then that where I hunt .  Anyone ever hunt with a sks ?  I have one of those a got over 20 years ago only because back then, you could get them for almost free $99 never use it on deer before .  I think if I wanted to use a miltary type gun caliber 7 ×62×39  is better then  .223 .  Maybe I will dust it off and take it out to rifle zone  for a deer hunt  one of these days . only thing not sure about is putting a plug  in the gun so it can take only 5 rounds  ,good enough or do I need to change the box clip to a  5 round one to  use it legally for deer hunting  . I have seen people use them never asked about that tho .

The way I read the law looks like all that you need is a,plug if I'm not mistaken.  

Edited September 22, 2016 by LJC

[jjb4900]

1 hour ago, LJC said:

Actually i use the shotgun because lately been hunting shotgun only zone .

I use iron sites on it so siting in is not a big deal .  And shots are under 100 yards you can't see more then that where I hunt .  Anyone ever hunt with a sks ?  I have one of those a got over 20 years ago only because back then, you could get them for almost free $99 never use it on deer before .  I think if I wanted to use a miltary type gun caliber 7 ×62×39  is better then  .223 .  Maybe I will dust it off and take it out to rifle zone  for a deer hunt  one of these days . only thing not sure about is putting a plug  in the gun so it can take only 5 rounds  ,good enough or do I need to change the box clip to a  5 round one to  use it legally for deer hunting  . I have seen people use them never asked about that tho .

The way I read the law looks like all that you need is a,plug if I'm not mistaken.  

you can can load that sucker sucker right to the top.........throw a few extra magazines in your bag as well,  but make sure you top them off first.