Good caliber for bear

[Padre86]

On 4/8/2017 at 11:55 AM, Rattler said:

The problem with the .308 is it's difficulty handling heavy projectiles.

As long as he has the right twist rate (1:10) and barrel length (18" or more) he should have no problem lobbing the heavier .308 bullets.  Heck, even with a traditional 1:12 rate, he should be fine with 180gr loads so long as the shot is kept to reasonable distance.

[Rattler]

Twist rate isn't the issue.  Heavy bullets invade the powder area of the case, limiting how much of a charge it can accept.

[Pygmy]

13 minutes ago, Rattler said:

Twist rate isn't the issue.  Heavy bullets invade the powder area of the case, limiting how much of a charge it can accept.

True, but how much velocity does he NEED with a 180 to be effective at woods ranges ?  I'm thinking 2400-2500 FPS MV would be plenty, and I'm sure it wouldn't be a stretch to get those velocities with a .308...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

12 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

True, but how much velocity does he NEED with a 180 to be effective at woods ranges ?  I'm thinking 2400-2500 FPS MV would be plenty, and I'm sure it wouldn't be a stretch to get those velocities with a .308...

The outfitter is more concerned with rounds that are "too fast" since most of the stands will be close range. I guess worried about the pin hole in and pin hole out issue before the bullet can expand and disperse the energy. That bear fat is worse than a deer. like thick Vaseline. and what blood does make it out is soaked up fast by the thick coat. So their opinion is a big  moderately fast bullet that dumps energy fast. That said the bears I've shot with my -06 165gr sierra game king bullets were from 40-70 yards. None went over 30 yards and all had great blood. two were in the boiler room broad side and one quartering to through the shoulder(that one never took a step)

[Buckmaster7600]

The outfitter is more concerned with rounds that are "too fast" since most of the stands will be close range. I guess worried about the pin hole in and pin hole out issue before the bullet can expand and disperse the energy. That bear fat is worse than a deer. like thick Vaseline. and what blood does make it out is soaked up fast by the thick coat. So their opinion is a big  moderately fast bullet that dumps energy fast. That said the bears I've shot with my -06 165gr sierra game king bullets were from 40-70 yards. None went over 30 yards and all had great blood. two were in the boiler room broad side and one quartering to through the shoulder(that one never took a step)

Velocity has nothing to do with "pin hole in pin hole out before a bullet has time to expand and disperse energy" bullet selection does. If you're using 30-378wby mag at 3500fps or a 30-30 at 2300fps the bullet has to expand rapidly and retain enough weight/ energy to continue on through the animal and hopefully into the dirt behind it. Energy transfer is what tears tissue and I can promise you that a fast bullet tears/damages a lot more tissue than a big slow one. I have yet to see any of my big bores 45/70, 454casull, 500s&w 45colt "hot loads" leave a hole even close to the size a 270. In a perfect world you want velocity and bullet diameter. The bigger the bullet starts the bigger it will get if pushed fast enough and the heavier a bullet starts the more weight it can loose and still carry enough energy to get through the animal.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

12 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

Velocity has nothing to do with "pin hole in pin hole out before a bullet has time to expand and disperse energy" bullet selection does. If you're using 30-378wby mag at 3500fps or a 30-30 at 2300fps the bullet has to expand rapidly and retain enough weight/ energy to continue on through the animal and hopefully into the dirt behind it. Energy transfer is what tears tissue and I can promise you that a fast bullet tears/damages a lot more tissue than a big slow one. I have yet to see any of my big bores 45/70, 454casull, 500s&w 45colt "hot loads" leave a hole even close to the size a 270. In a perfect world you want velocity and bullet diameter. The bigger the bullet starts the bigger it will get if pushed fast enough and the heavier a bullet starts the more weight it can loose and still carry enough energy to get through the animal.

 

 

I am with you. Was only expressing their comments and concerns. That is why I am sticking with my -06 and my buddy will be using my 270win  

[WNYBuckHunter]

I actually have come to the decision to stick with my .308, and get it setup to run the 160Gr Fusions or something similar. I shoot 140s for deer, and I have been more than happy with the results. I think the heavier bullet should do the trick. Ill save my cash for a different gun.

I appreciate all of the input, lots of good info in this thread. Thanks everyone!

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

I actually have come to the decision to stick with my .308, and get it setup to run the 160Gr Fusions or something similar. I shoot 140s for deer, and I have been more than happy with the results. I think the heavier bullet should do the trick. Ill save my cash for a different gun.

I appreciate all of the input, lots of good info in this thread. Thanks everyone!

when I bought my 30-06 last year I did so with the intention of having a bear and deer gun. Knowing if I was only hunting deer, a .270 would have been a better choice. I sited her in with Hornady American superformance SST165's because I felt 180's were too much for deer and 150's while probably fine, were not enough for bear. I've never been a fan of compromise, but having to resite in different loads or buy 2 guns wasn't in the cards.

[Padre86]

2 hours ago, Rattler said:

Twist rate isn't the issue.  Heavy bullets invade the powder area of the case, limiting how much of a charge it can accept.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.  There are more than a few 180gr+ loads that are well-developed for .308 rifles. 

[Pygmy]

2 hours ago, Belo said:

when I bought my 30-06 last year I did so with the intention of having a bear and deer gun. Knowing if I was only hunting deer, a .270 would have been a better choice. I sited her in with Hornady American superformance SST165's because I felt 180's were too much for deer and 150's while probably fine, were not enough for bear. I've never been a fan of compromise, but having to resite in different loads or buy 2 guns wasn't in the cards.

You are over analyzing.....  in a 30-06, OR a .308, 150s are fine for deer, or black bear....165s are fine for deer , or black bear...180s are fine for deer, or black bear...

The same can be said with many other calibers and bullet weights  AND other species of game, like  elk, caribou, or moose..

Are you beginning to  get the trend ??

[Lawdwaz]

13 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

You are over analyzing.....  in a 30-06, OR a .308, 150s are fine for deer, or black bear....165s are fine for deer , or black bear...180s are fine for deer, or black bear...

The same can be said with many other calibers and bullet weights  AND other species of game, like  elk, caribou, or moose..

Are you beginning to  get the trend ??

I have always thought the 165gr bullet in the 30-06 was just the perfect "compromise" over the 150 and 180.  I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a coastal brown bear with a 200gr or 220gr bullet out of a 30-06.

[wolc123]

Years ago, on western elk/mule deer hunts, I also used the 165's (Hornady light magnums), as a compromise in my 30/06. 180's may have been better for elk and 150's for deer.   That would be near-perfect black bear ammo, since the slow-burning powder gets the speed up the same as a 7 mm mag.   I think I have a box or two left, so I may re-sight and give them a try, after my current supply of 150 gr Federal classics is exhausted.            

[Jmp209]

Bullet weight plays a much minor role than design and construction. You can have two bullets of the same weight fired at the same velocity act completely different from one another when used on game.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

[Five Seasons]

15 hours ago, Pygmy said:

You are over analyzing.....  in a 30-06, OR a .308, 150s are fine for deer, or black bear....165s are fine for deer , or black bear...180s are fine for deer, or black bear...

The same can be said with many other calibers and bullet weights  AND other species of game, like  elk, caribou, or moose..

Are you beginning to  get the trend ??

Oh I know. But I'm an engineer. I spec out just about about everything I buy, even a new vacuum. If I had a hand-me-down rifle sited in with a particular load I wouldn't think twice. But when you're buying new and have to start somewhere you have to pick. That is kind of what I was getting at. You're staring at 3 boxes of bullets on the shelf and have to pick one.

15 hours ago, Lawdwaz said:

I have always thought the 165gr bullet in the 30-06 was just the perfect "compromise" over the 150 and 180.  I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a coastal brown bear with a 200gr or 220gr bullet out of a 30-06.

yeah that was kind of my logic. idk...

[Pygmy]

25 minutes ago, Belo said:

Oh I know. But I'm an engineer. I spec out just about about everything I buy, even a new vacuum. If I had a hand-me-down rifle sited in with a particular load I wouldn't think twice. But when you're buying new and have to start somewhere you have to pick. That is kind of what I was getting at. You're staring at 3 boxes of bullets on the shelf and have to pick one.

yeah that was kind of my logic. idk...

I understand, Belo....I worked with and for engineers for 30 years..My job title was "Engineering Technician"...<<smile>>....

[NFA-ADK]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 11:43 AM, moog5050 said:

600 nitro express is what you need

 

Way to small!

[Rattler]

19 hours ago, Padre86 said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at.  There are more than a few 180gr+ loads that are well-developed for .308 rifles. 

Yes, but with a max charge, the cartridge's OAL is either too long for any action except a single shot, or has a much lower velocity than a 150 grain bullet at max charge of the same powder, or even a 180 bullet using a max load of the same powder in say a .30-06 Springfield.  The .308 case is not friendly to heavy (long) bullets. They must take up space in the interior of the case that could be used for powder, in order to keep the round's O.A.L. within specs.  They are out there, but they're designed for penetration and rely on ballistic coefficient to maintain velocity at long range.  The most accurate .308 Match rounds are rarely anything but 168 grain FMJ.

[Padre86]

On 4/13/2017 at 11:08 AM, Rattler said:

Yes, but with a max charge, the cartridge's OAL is either too long for any action except a single shot, or has a much lower velocity than a 150 grain bullet at max charge of the same powder, or even a 180 bullet using a max load of the same powder in say a .30-06 Springfield.  The .308 case is not friendly to heavy (long) bullets. They must take up space in the interior of the case that could be used for powder, in order to keep the round's O.A.L. within specs.  They are out there, but they're designed for penetration and rely on ballistic coefficient to maintain velocity at long range.  The most accurate .308 Match rounds are rarely anything but 168 grain FMJ.

I'm not sure on some of that.  There are plenty of 180gr loads that fit just fine in a .308 action, single shot or magazine loaded.

The 180gr loads and higher due tend to have lower muzzle velocities relative to lighter loads (though not by much).  However, the heavy loads more than make up for that with higher BC's and higher mass (which translates into higher kinetic energy and momentum on target).  I do agree there probably is a point of diminishing returns with the load size for a .308 platforms, but a 180gr-185gr load (which should be sufficient for most North American big game) works just fine in a .308 rifle.  And as someone else pointed out, a 150-160gr hunting load is likely more sufficient for the OP's uses.

Also, the 168gr BTHP (FMJ are used more for military training then they are for match shooting) is no longer considered the most accurate .308 load.  A lot of precision shooters have switched away from .308 to 6mm-based cartridges, but of those who still shoot with .308, they use 175gr BTHP's or Berger's 185gr Juggernaut.  Again, an appropriate twist rate and barrel length makes a bit of difference for .308 platforms (1:10 twist rates seem to be preferred over the traditional 1:12 rate for those heavies). 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Padre86